The NEVERENDING Raising Children Thread

[Michele Zone]

I am half tempted on trying to figure out how to have one of us (my wife or I) stay home.

How did you parents figure this one out?

We had one car. I cooked a lot from scratch. Shopped sales. Used coupons. And we had really good benefits through the army, which we were both very savvy about because we both came from military families. Some folks join the military and have no idea how to take advantage of the bennies available to them. So look at whatever resources and benefits you may already have available to you that you might not be making the most of.

I also did daycare at home briefly.

You could pick up some books like "How to survive without a salary" by Charles Long and "The Tightwad Gazette" volumes 1-3.

[otterpop]

I'm amazed that children thrive and prosper with as many stoooopid parents as there are in this world.

That is true in many cases. What makes me sadder every time my wife brings home another horror story from her job (a daycare) is a lot of children do not prosper with the stoopid parents they have. Some of those kids are problems for my son now and likely will be a problem for society in the future.

To clarify when I mean stoopid, (and btrage, possibly mean the same thing), what I mean is parents who make bad choices in their lives and their children's lives due to a lack of responsbility, self-respect, common sense, or addictions.

I have met parents who may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer but are good parents and do the best they can with what resources they have. Those parents are to be commended for their efforts. You can be on the wrong side of the IQ bell curve and still be a good parent.

[kjel]

I stayed home the first year since there was no financial benefit to me working. I lived with my mom then, got child support and was the relief babysitter for a home based daycare in the neighborhood. The cost of day care drops somewhat the older the kids get so I went back to work after a year and R.T. went to an excellent home based daycare until she was three and then went to a great facility until she was five.

Things to consider:

Will there be any financial incentive for both of you to be working. Take into consideration cost of commuting, taxes, cost of work like clothes, lunches, etc. Think about the extra time it takes getting a baby up, dressed, fed, and ready to take off to daycare and then the reverse. If you choose to go the daycare route what is the plan for when the baby gets sick and can't go to day care, what happens if the center/home provider is closed on a day both of you have to work, who leaves work when the baby gets sick in the middle of the day?

Don't worry, you will figure it out!

[Raf]

We are doing the part-time child care thing. My wife stayed home with our daughter for about 6 months, than went to work in the evenings and weekends and went to school on evenings she didn't work. I would handle the baby during the evenings and weekends. We do the same schedule now, but our child goes to pre-school Mon & Wed until kindergarden starts. We want to up a day, but i got to go back to full time to make the math work. Don't worry Zman, you two will figure it out. Nothing like being a dad and spending some quality time when mom is away working or going to school. We get to do cool stuff like go to the park or kick the soccer ball around or throw the baseball around or play with the dog, but that comes with the toddler stage. Take advice from others and just weigh the costs, that will give u the answer.

[Planit]

Mrs. P was very concerned about leaving the little one anywhere. For the first year, her parents took care of Wee P and then a couple of things happened. A spot opened up in our churches CMO program (childrens morning out) which kept kids from 9:00 am to 1:00 pm, so we put her in there for 3 days a week, leaving her parents with the other 2 days. Then the Admin. Assist. job a church became opened and one of the senior people told her she could have the job if she wanted it and by the way, if you work for the church, CMO was free. This meant Mrs. P had to quit her job (which she was the HR person for a nursing home - and she really didn't like anyway), take a $4.00 per hour cut and reduce hours from 40 to 24 per week. But she did get to leave work at 1:00 pm and spent time with Wee P. There was a financial hit, but this was tempered by the 'free' day care. When Wee P started school, another job opened up at a company where we know the owners and she was hired full-time there. We are very lucky how things fell into place.

We have a girl here who has 2 in daycare and is thinking of quiting because she said her paycheck only covers daycare and insurance - she is beginning to do a financial comparison.

Zman (and others), trust your gut. These are your kids and you have to do what you feel is right. As others have said, you'll figure it out...and its just the beginning!

[zman]

Most likely, the kid(s) would stay with a sitter in the neighborhood (one of 2 licensed with the State) sitters we have in town). I work in my neighborhood as well and would likely be the one to pick up the slack when the kid(s) get sick or if there is a day off. My office is close to home and the two registered sitters, my boss is very family-oriented and I am able to take some work home if needed.

I think the ultimate goal for us is to have someone stay home with the kids, maybe even dropped to a part-time schedule or something. I really do not want a day care center raising our kids. One thing we'll have to sort through is paying off some debts to free up some cash flow and then we'll work it out. My wife works in construction (a very boom-and-bust industry) so she may be able to go part-time pretty easily, without a huge hit to our finances.

[kjel]

^^ Keep in mind that despite the best laid plans having kids is an exercise in being adaptable. Sometimes it takes a couple tries to get the right match between a daycare and a kid.

[Gedunker]

^^ Keep in mind that despite the best laid plans having kids is an exercise in being adaptable. Sometimes it takes a couple tries to get the right match between a daycare and a kid.

Truer words were never written. Our son went to a licensed center when my wife returned to work. It was a screw up from day one. The final straw involved my wife, then a chemist at a wastewater treatment plant, going to pick him up and noticing a strong smell of baby poo emanating from his diaper. (This from a woman that worked at an aged, stinky POTW.) The assistant, when asked why his diaper had not yet been changed, stated something along the lines of 'he's new and doesn't know me yet, so they said he should just wait until one of the others can change him'. Um, no, goodbye.

We used unlicensed home daycares (which does not mean unregulated, at least in Indiana) until they went to school and were very pleased with them. Now, the issue for us is they are between being too old for daycare and too young to be left at home alone. The day camps around here are 0-2 with us, so we're getting ready to panic.

[btrage]

Figuring out childcare sucks. My wife and I have used all types. Centers, home-based, babysitter at our house. We've found that no situation is perfect, unless you are made of money.

I'm not ashamed to admit that my wife and I both work full time and our two kids spend all day at the babysitter's house. Do I think "other people are raising my kids"? Absolutely not. That being said, our evenings and weekends are solely dedicated to our kids. Except when they're at grandma's.

I think a lot depends on the kids. Some thrive outside of the home, away from their parents. Others need parent time much more. My kids don't always love having to go the babysitter's everyday, but overall they like getting out of the house and away from mom and dad. But I think we "baby" kids way too much in this society, so my view on this is probably slightly skewed.

[cch]

I have experience with two home-based daycares... one awesome, and one awful. And my tips for finding a good one are that you want a childcare provider who:
- genuinely seems to adore children
- is somewhat laid back, and goes with the flow, doesn't stress the small stuff
- never bad-mouths other families (past or present)
- has a nice fenced-in yard with plenty or toys and activities
- loves involving kids in crafts and creative activities
- takes an interest in your child and what their likes and dislikes are
- has no children, or children who are grown, so their daycare business is their one and only priority

The awful daycare we experienced was clean as a whistle, the woman was very specific on what she tolerates, the woman bad-mouthed a past family who pulled their child from her care, she was so anal and neat that she only allowed each child to have one toy out at a time, she never did crafts with them cause she didn't like messes, she told us she was going to fence in her yard and build a playground but it never happened and the children rarely played outside, and she really only seemed to be in the daycare business as a way to make money from home. She never really got to know my daughter and her strictness put my daughter on edge. We only stayed with that daycare for 3 months.

Both these home daycares were licensed by the state, by the way. And on the day that became my daughter's final day at the second daycare, was a day when I called the house and another woman answered the phone, said she was watching the kids, while the provider had left to talk to her daughter's teacher. If I hadn't happened to call I'm sure I never would have known that a stranger who may or may not know cpr or be good with children, was with my daughter. I picked my girl up and never brought her back.

Now my girls are in a daycare/preschool center. I like that there are so many eyes on the kids, and on all the caregivers. But, with such a large number of kids there I think my girls are getting sick more often, and it is expensive.

No daycare situation is perfect, but in hindsight I realize how wonderful our first home daycare was. It was a shame with that woman decided to retire, after my daughter had been with her for the first 3 1/2 years of her life.

Good luck finding whatever works for you, zman.

[zman]

Maybe I will place the baby in a backpack and take him/her to work with me. Sort of like old time peasant farmers sow the fields.

[otterpop]

Today's headline above the fold of the local paper - Toddler dies after being run over by pickup. Apparently the little boy was in the yard unattended. Pickup pulled out of the driveway and was stopped on the street. Toddler went out to the pickup and had his hands on the side of the truck. The driver didn't see him, pulled off and the child fell under the truck.

Tragedy is only a moment away. Eternal vigilance is today's lesson. After I read the story I was reminded of the time I lost my son at the park. Out of sight for a moment and gone the next. Thankfully I found him quickly, but it scared me sh**less.

[luckless pedestrian]

my 3 kids are all daycare kids and though my teenager is a little mouthy right now, she is pretty normal and grounded for 16

my Mom gave me the best advice: happy parents make happy kids

if you are working and unhappy, it shows on the kids and if you are not working and unhappy, it shows on the kids

the important thing is that they feel loved

knowing you in a cyber way, zman, I highly recommend Waldorf daycare/schools or Montessori

in reality, the double full time working parent gig falls apart when they go to school, not when they are babies - most daycares run the work day so they are in one place, all day - it's that wondrous 3 to 6 PM time period when they are in school activities or outside activities or home or not at home that runs you ragged - that's really when someone needs to go part time (we did that when we moved to Maine and it made a huge difference in our lives and our kids' lives because they can do whatever after school thing they want because my hubby is the runner for them) - believe it or not, it's our high schooler who drags us the most around during this time period - the 4 yo takes less energy than our 16 yo

and that's your parenting wisdom for today - call your mother

[michaelskis]

What’s everyone’s thoughts on Montessori programs? Our public school system has one and as long as it is not liberal indoctrination, it might be a viable alternative to Catholic School. (although we are still leaning towards catholic school)

Our little guy is starting to do the baby jabber thing. Now that we have his skin irritation issues under control, he seems much, much happier, does not scratch as much, and is quickly approaching a much desired landmark of sleeping through the night.

[dandy_warhol]

What’s everyone’s thoughts on Montessori programs? Our public school system has one and as long as it is not liberal indoctrination, it might be a viable alternative to Catholic School. (although we are still leaning towards catholic school)

i'm not quite sure how letting a child guide its own education can be viewed as liberal indoctrination unless your little one is a closet-liberal.

do some research, speak with parents of children attending the school.

here:

Montessori educational practice helps children develop creativity, problem solving, critical thinking and time-management skills, to contribute to society and the environment, and to become fulfilled persons in their particular time and place on Earth. The basis of Montessori practice in the classroom is respected individual choice of research and work, and uninterrupted concentration rather than group lessons led by an adult. http://www.montessori.edu/

or here:

Montessori classrooms provide a prepared environment where children are free to respond to their natural drive to work and learn. The children's inherent love of learning is encouraged by giving them opportunities to engage in spontaneous, meaningful activities under the guidance of a trained adult. Through their work, the children develop concentration, motivation, persistence, and discipline. Within this framework of order, the children progress at their own pace and rhythm, according to their individual capabilities, during the crucial years of development. http://www.montessori-intl.org/approach.html

or here:

The Montessori method is characterized by an emphasis on self-directed activity on the part of the child and clinical observation on the part of the teacher (often called a director, directress, or guide). It stresses the importance of adapting the child's learning environment to his or her developmental level, and of the role of physical activity in absorbing abstract concepts and practical skills. It is also characterized by the use of autodidactic (self-correcting) equipment for introduction and learning of various concepts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montessori

[luckless pedestrian]

What’s everyone’s thoughts on Montessori programs? Our public school system has one and as long as it is not liberal indoctrination, it might be a viable alternative to Catholic School. (although we are still leaning towards catholic school)

Our little guy is starting to do the baby jabber thing. Now that we have his skin irritation issues under control, he seems much, much happier, does not scratch as much, and is quickly approaching a much desired landmark of sleeping through the night.

Montessori was actually started by Catholic nuns

personally I like the Waldorf method better - it gets kids into math and science in a more conceptual way, intertwining it with the arts which is great to little kid learning since everything is intertwined in their minds - it also has more of a disciplined approach to learning, a rhythm to the day of kind of thing, than Montessori is - Montessori allows the child to determine their rhythm, whereas Waldorf has the child as a responsible member of a group and they are part of a rhythm of the day - many schools are filled with very conservative minded folks alongside hyper hippie liberal types - it's kind of neat, really...

[zman]

Would I have to shell out some serious $$$ for Montessori or Waldorf?

[kjel]

Let's not scare the bejesus outta Zman just yet

[luckless pedestrian]

zman - they are not cheap, no - one other Waldorfian concept is they pay their teachers a living wage - not sure about Montessori - sometimes people start daycares that will term themselves Waldorf-based, which is code for we don't pay to register with the International Waldorf folks and they are often cheaper (our 4 yo son goes to one, it's great)

another thing is it really depends on the kid - our oldest did the corporate pen daycare facility and she loved it, thrives on chaos and disruption and mayhem (still does), she loved to go every day- but our second child was not happy in the same situation as a baby so we switched her to in-home and then when she was 3 we discovered Waldorf - our little guy we didn't give the option, we just started him in in-home until an opening in Waldorf opened up - so it works out - you will be amazed how quickly you will "get" your baby and know what he/she needs, it's very cool to look back on it now though at the time we didn't realize we were so clued in

kjelsadek - LOL, oh come on - hehehehe

[zman]

Let's not scare the bejesus outta Zman just yet

Each scare just brings me closer to moving my family to the woods where I will educate my own children in nature with the dogs (and grow a mondo beard).


NOTE: This life will not include an appearance on Dateline or Hard Copy.

[wahday]

Both of my children go to a Montessori school - they are 3 and 8. I love it, but it is a private school and it is a benefit of my job. If I did not have this opportunity, I would not be sending my kids to a private school at all. But, since the option is there, we do...and we love it. Our kids' school goes from toddlers (18 months) through 5th grade.

I have learned a good amount about the Montessori system over the last 6 years and am a very enthusiastic supporter. You are welcome to PM with specific questions.

Bear in mind that being "affiliated" and "certified" Montessori are two different things. "Certified" schools are the real deal. "Affiliated" are often hybrids or modifications. In some public settings, for example, schools are not allowed to have more than two grades together in the same classroom. Montessori operates on a system of "cycles" that are usually 3 years in length. Thus, a child at the Primary level (pre-school ages 3 to 6) is in the same classroom working with the same materials in increasing complexity during those three years. Over this time, they take on maturing roles - from the youngest novice, to the oldest mentor. Its a rather beautiful system, but since this doesn't dovetail with some public system requirements, it doesn't always happen this way.

These would be good questions to ask about a public Montessori school - do they have three year cycles? Are the teachers Montessori certified? Is the school Montessori certified?

One thing I like especially is that the research, materials used and the schooling all certified teachers must pass are rooted in ongoing scientific research about child development. Montessori often has a reputation for being unstructured, loose and undisciplined because if you drop into a classroom, its hard to figure out what is going on. Kids appear to be choosing their own work at random and its not even clear what that work entails.

But now that I know what is going on, I realize that the education is, in fact, very structured and the learning very "deep." The materials children work with are not toys - they have specific rules and ways of being used and children are not allowed to just play blocks with them or whatever. They get a presentation on the correct way to use the materials and need to abide by that. When they are done, they pack up their materials and put them back on the shelf where they found it.

Which isn't to say that there is not lots of room for creative thought, artistic expression, etc. Jut ask my son. He can't think conventionally to save his life. Or maybe its just an 8 year old thing...

Recently, I went to presentation on how math concepts are dealt with across different Montessori grade levels. Holy crap is this stuff genius. The way concepts are taught means that children often inherently understand the concepts before they can put a name to it, which is part of the "deep" learning concept. The learning is very graphic, too, giving a sense of tactile-ness. A chain with 5 beads, for example, can be strung together 5 times to form a long chain. The child counts the beads on the chain, gets used to counting by 5s and then later, the beads are folded to form a 5X5 square. Guess how many beads it has? 25 - its 5 squared! This is the first time that I actually understood that "squaring" a number is actually physically making a square out of the units. They can also cube it in the same way - stack 5 squares and voila! This is all first and second grade work, BTW. I won't even tell you about the Pythagorean Theorum and how they teach that one using visuals. Just brilliant.

Similar approaches apply also to language acquisition, including writing and reading. At the primary level (again, this is pre-school in Montessori nomenclature), children trace letters with their fingers on a sandpaper card, feeling the roughness. Then they write that letter, while saying its sound, in a small container of sand. Then they write it out using a pencil on paper. So, children integrate the aural, oral and tactile all at once with the result being that when it all comes together - it REALLY comes together in a big big way.

My son began reading completely on his own around the time he turned 7 and it all seemed rather magical because of this "deep learning." No Dick and Jane books for him. He began around November and from December to March, he read all seven Harry Potter books entirely on his own. Now he is a reading fiend with a bigger vocabulary than me!

I would add at the end of all of this that there really are many great ways to educate a child and every child is different. I don't think the Montessori method is necessarily the "best" but it has been great for our son. Our daughter is only 3 so its hard to tell if she clicks with it all in the same way, but I expect she will. As a foundation, especially through the primary years (3 to 6), I think it really is wonderful, but not the only wonderful thing you can do for your kids' education. Keep your options open. You've got some time.

[luckless pedestrian]

hey, thanks wahday!

[boiker]

My son began reading completely on his own around the time he turned 7 and it all seemed rather magical because of this "deep learning." No Dick and Jane books for him. He began around November and from December to March, he read all seven Harry Potter books entirely on his own. Now he is a reading fiend with a bigger vocabulary than me!

Great for him!

I found your observation interesting. My kids have been public school educated and I was surprised to see my kindergartener (6 yr) quickly move from dick and jane style to 1st grade/2nd grade level books. I believe a lot of it has to do with the parents. We work with her and challenge her to understand phonics and the meaning of words through the stories.

My 9 year old is obsessed with books. I've caught him setting his alarm for 3AM so he could sneakily wake up early and read before school.

I've become more bookish lately too and I it seems that we are all rubbing off on one another in a very positive way.

[Zoning Goddess]

Our public school system has one and as long as it is not liberal indoctrination, it might be a viable alternative to Catholic School. (although we are still leaning towards catholic school)

You gotta get over the paranoia. Last time I looked, public schools did not have an "agenda". Sheesh; especially for toddlers....

[ofos]

My first son was born when the 1st wife and I were still apartment dwellers. He was subjected to in-home care (too expensive & got ripped off) and a couple of daycare-in-people's homes (cost was acceptable but had to drive across town and one just didn't feel right). Finally bought a house and found that there was an Indian family in our neighborhood that ran a daycare/preschool out of their home. It was a bit more expensive but they really cared about the kids and he loved it. I only had to take him about two blocks. When he'd get in their house, he'd just head for the other kids without looking back. Sometime I felt like he was their kid and we just provided night care for him. Naturally, when boy #2 came along, that's the only place he ever went.

Suppose the"Snip, Snip (The Vasectomy Thread)" could be renamed to "The NEVERRAISING Ending Children Thread"?