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Thread: Difference between a transportation engineer and planner

  1. #1

    Difference between a transportation engineer and planner

    I am currently going to a junior in an undergrad civil engineering program and I am very interested in the field of transportation engineering/planning. A big question that I am finding hard is to know what is the difference between a transportation planner and a transportation engineer. I am more interested in mass transit design (especially light rail and heavy rail) and the possible layout involved. Does one of these fields involve mass transit more than the other? Your advice is appreciated. Thanks.

  2. #2
    maudit anglais
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    I always liken it to this: A transportation planner determines that something needs to be &*^%ed up, while the transportation engineer figures out the best way to actually &*^% it up.

    If it is the design side that most interests you, stick with engineering.

  3. #3
    Cyburbian Flying Monkeys's avatar
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    A transportation 'engineer' (definition of engineer: someone who has the education to obtain a P.E.) can perform planning functions....but a transportation planner can not perform design functions without the involvement of an 'engineer' (even if only to 'sign & seal' final plans).

    If you want to go as far as you can in the design area: engineering is the way to go.

    If you want to do transportation planning (such as you described): You can do it with a planning degree...however, you can go farther and make more money, and perform the same work, if you go the engineering route and obtain the P.E.
    What’s in a name? – Your reputation….:)

  4. #4
    Both replies are spot on. If I had to do it over again, I'd get an engineering degree as you have more options within the same area of interest, especially once you get the P.E. stamp.

  5. #5

    Thanks

    Thank you for the advice, guys. I appreciate it.

  6. #6
    Cyburbian the north omaha star's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Tranplanner View post
    I always liken it to this: A transportation planner determines that something needs to be &*^%ed up, while the transportation engineer figures out the best way to actually &*^% it up.
    As a former tranportation planner, I agree whole heartedly.
    I am recognizing that the voice inside my head
    is urging me to be myself but never follow someone else
    Because opinions are like voices we all have a different kind". --Q-Tip

  7. #7
    Cyburbian
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    Good replies - at least that cleared up a bit of my misconceptions as well.

    Would you also be able to say this as well:

    "There is a problem"
    Transport Engineer's reply: we'd find this demand, put in this road, and viola problem solved.
    Transport Planner's reply: is there a problem in the first place?

    TE gives you the technical and analytical skills but TP requires you to think critically about the decisions you make. My 2c worth.

  8. #8
    Cyburbian jmello's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Flying Monkeys View post
    A transportation 'engineer' (definition of engineer: someone who has the education to obtain a P.E.) can perform planning functions....
    That is really a matter of opinion. Just because they are permitted to perform "planning functions," does not mean that they are good at it.

  9. #9
    Cyburbian Flying Monkeys's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by jmello View post
    That is really a matter of opinion. Just because they are permitted to perform "planning functions," does not mean that they are good at it.
    I agree... but look at the trend in hiring transportation planners. Unless it is for a planning type agency (MPO, RPC, County) the requirements are becoming 'has P.E. or is able to obtain one'. This is because it is becoming more common for traffic impact studies to be required to be 'signed and sealed'.

    Transportation planning is a pseudo science. Much of what we use as 'standards' and 'measurements of effectiveness (MOEs)' are subjective, becoming written in stone after years of use. When transportation planning is viewed as this static process that is made of measurements and accepted methods, it becomes something that borders on engineering and 'feels' like it requires the regulation afforded by the P.E.

    My 2 cents: Transportation planning is too broad a term. As with all planning, we should be aware of the sub-categories. A few examples: Forecasting/Modeling, multi-model planning, transit planning, transportation planning for livable communities. And the big cross over into engineering: Traffic engineering (or planning for traffic). Some of these categories actually require education that planners have and engineers do not. Nor are some of these functions what engineers would be comfortable performing. To me, these are the planning niches, not competing with engineers to do traffic engineering.
    What’s in a name? – Your reputation….:)

  10. #10

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    PE Licensure

    Isn't it also true that after X years of experience and you get the requisite signatures, you can be a licensed PE? In California I think it's 7 years of work supervised by a licensed PE. And then 3 signatures...or something along those lines?

  11. #11
    Cyburbian Random Traffic Guy's avatar
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    IIRC in most states you need to have an accredited (sp?) engineering degree to even begin the process. Then have "engineering work of increasing complexity and responsibility" that a PE has supervised. Alot of planning activities would be a grey area under this and be dependent on the judgement of the state board. I was a little nervous putting my TIA experience down, even though around here they all need to be sealed and I knew all my peers had used that with no problems.

    If you're interested in the slightest bit in design (a.k.a. anything with a decimal point, or making pie-in-the-sky plans into actually-helping-people reality ) I would recommend sticking to the engineering side. Take as many planning courses as your interests run but for the most flexibility later at least get the base in an accredited engineering degree.

    RTG the PE,PTOE

  12. #12
    Cyburbian
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    Quote Originally posted by Flying Monkeys View post
    Some of these categories actually require education that planners have and engineers do not. Nor are some of these functions what engineers would be comfortable performing. To me, these are the planning niches, not competing with engineers to do traffic engineering.
    Hi FlyingMonkeys, would you be able to explain what some of these niches are? I'm interested to note (as I'm thinking of becoming a transport planner and was wondering whether to take a TE or TP postgraduate).

  13. #13
    Cyburbian Flying Monkeys's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by joshww81 View post
    Hi FlyingMonkeys, would you be able to explain what some of these niches are? I'm interested to note (as I'm thinking of becoming a transport planner and was wondering whether to take a TE or TP postgraduate).
    I notice that you are in Australia… What I write about may not apply to you… maybe an Australian Cyburbian can help.

    My niche theory is like looking at a slice of pie and inferring what the rest of the pie looked like. It is based on two assumptions:

    1) Engineering firms work like law firms; it is all about billable hours.

    2) The profession of planning over the last 30 years has become a profession of advocacy. (Planners advocate for affordable housing, cyclists, and pedestrians, those with less resources in the community)

    So… Think back to your Political Science class, Government Policy class, Various planning classes. The accepted teaching is that ‘Government services correct for market failure and are not expected to make a profit or break even.’ The next assumption is that most advocacy positions are not profitable, or they probably would not need an advocate.

    So… Planning for traffic, traffic impact studies, toll roads, are very profitable. (in fact some engineering firms that perform these studies are in a better position to get awarded a design contract to design the road they forecasted the traffic for.) Therefore, planners are in direct completion with engineers for this work. To bad because engineers have a better ‘union’ (P.E.) and official licensing.

    So… What is a planner to do? Well, Bike and ped planning, traffic reduction planning, mode shift planning, transit planning (until recently), do not produce the revenues that planning for roads does. Traditionally these have not enjoyed the funding programs like gas taxes. Transit is a good example of this. Until the New Starts (program which provides more funding for transit), engineers weren’t that interested. But now, all engineering firms have beefed up their transit sections and gone on hiring sprees.

    So…Planners need licensing (and solid education, planning education is a joke) to compete with engineers so that when something does get a good level of funding (due to advocacy work by planners?) planners can compete. Until then, look for those areas that are in need of planning advocacy. But don’t expect to see compensation at the level of an engineer doing transportation planning.

    What’s in a name? – Your reputation….:)

  14. #14
    Cyburbian
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    Hey! Thank you for your insight - I'd try to digest what you are saying and I do understand what you are talking about.

    Quote Originally posted by Flying Monkeys View post
    I notice that you are in Australia… What I write about may not apply to you… maybe an Australian Cyburbian can help.

    My niche theory is like looking at a slice of pie and inferring what the rest of the pie looked like. It is based on two assumptions:

    1) Engineering firms work like law firms; it is all about billable hours.

    2) The profession of planning over the last 30 years has become a profession of advocacy. (Planners advocate for affordable housing, cyclists, and pedestrians, those with less resources in the community)
    You've raised a VERY interesting point. I'm a land use planner at the moment who works in private consultancy and we actually function like law firms with billable hours. I guess as result, we're more commercial oriented and work only for clients who can 'pay' so as to speak. I have never done advocacy before in my short career: the only people I advocate for are the developers....

    Quote Originally posted by Flying Monkeys View post

    So… Think back to your Political Science class, Government Policy class, Various planning classes. The accepted teaching is that ‘Government services correct for market failure and are not expected to make a profit or break even.’ The next assumption is that most advocacy positions are not profitable, or they probably would not need an advocate.

    So… Planning for traffic, traffic impact studies, toll roads, are very profitable. (in fact some engineering firms that perform these studies are in a better position to get awarded a design contract to design the road they forecasted the traffic for.) Therefore, planners are in direct completion with engineers for this work. To bad because engineers have a better ‘union’ (P.E.) and official licensing.

    So… What is a planner to do? Well, Bike and ped planning, traffic reduction planning, mode shift planning, transit planning (until recently), do not produce the revenues that planning for roads does. Traditionally these have not enjoyed the funding programs like gas taxes. Transit is a good example of this. Until the New Starts (program which provides more funding for transit), engineers weren’t that interested. But now, all engineering firms have beefed up their transit sections and gone on hiring sprees.

    So…Planners need licensing (and solid education, planning education is a joke) to compete with engineers so that when something does get a good level of funding (due to advocacy work by planners?) planners can compete. Until then, look for those areas that are in need of planning advocacy. But don’t expect to see compensation at the level of an engineer doing transportation planning.

    OK I get the drift. Looks like my next job would be in the public service rather than the private, where they're looking mostly for designers/engineers than anyone else....but I'd probably need an either holistic transport engineering masters or a good transport planning degree that incorporates certain elements of modelling/engineering. I'm not keen on designing roads although I would like to design the layout of roads...

  15. #15
    Cyburbian Plan 9's avatar
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    Transportation engineers get paid more!

    Of course they also have to get an engineering degree and likely get their PE, and all the BS that goes with that

  16. #16
    Cyburbian jmello's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Plan 9 View post
    Transportation engineers get paid more!
    Not necessarily true here. One also needs to consider career advancement potential. IMO, planners have a lot more open doors than engineers in that regard, including communications, politics, and administration.

  17. #17
    Cyburbian Flying Monkeys's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by jmello View post
    Not necessarily true here. One also needs to consider career advancement potential. IMO, planners have a lot more open doors than engineers in that regard, including communications, politics, and administration.
    I disagree completely. If a planner and an engineer applied for a city managers spot (politics, admin.) I believe that the engineer may have the upper hand. In fact the planning creds may work against the planner. Just my opinion.
    What’s in a name? – Your reputation….:)

  18. #18
    Cyburbian Plus hilldweller's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Flying Monkeys View post
    I disagree completely. If a planner and an engineer applied for a city managers spot (politics, admin.) I believe that the engineer may have the upper hand. In fact the planning creds may work against the planner. Just my opinion.
    City Managers are a whole other animal IMO, but I agree that the engineer would be the preferred candidate for the CM job over the planner. City Managers and planners seem to butt heads quite a bit, is this true in your area?

    I think jmello is referring to broader opportunities in administration/politics, which often require administrative skills and knowledge of the inner workings of government that frankly most P.E.'s don't have.

  19. #19
    Cyburbian Flying Monkeys's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by hilldweller View post
    I think jmello is referring to broader opportunities in administration/politics, which often require administrative skills and knowledge of the inner workings of government that frankly most P.E.'s don't have.
    I will agree.. but do those positions pay what a practicing engineer can make? I was trying to think of a position that would pay more....

    I want to believe that you guys are right.... but I think that the planning profession needs a better representative (the APA ain't doing it for us). Don't take this the wrong way (it hurts me too), but many people have the respect for the planning profession that other proffesions, such as engineering, have.

    I am just whining now....
    What’s in a name? – Your reputation….:)

  20. #20
    Cyburbian
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    Another piece of advice sought...

    If I wanted to do the following tasks:

    project traffic increases, changes to travel patterns against land use changes, formulate options for transport planning (transit, roads, etc), create a plan, put it into implementation, design network for bus routes, plans for integrated public transport systems (timetabling, routes, etc),

    would I have to be a transport engineer or a transport planner?

  21. #21
    Cyburbian Greenescapist's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by joshww81 View post
    If I wanted to do the following tasks:

    project traffic increases, changes to travel patterns against land use changes, formulate options for transport planning (transit, roads, etc), create a plan, put it into implementation, design network for bus routes, plans for integrated public transport systems (timetabling, routes, etc),

    would I have to be a transport engineer or a transport planner?
    It sounds like either an engineer or planner could do this work. However, an engineer might be better equipped to design the bus network since there would need to be underlying transportation analysis. Not that a planner couldn't do that though...

  22. #22
    maudit anglais
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    Quote Originally posted by joshww81 View post
    If I wanted to do the following tasks:

    project traffic increases, changes to travel patterns against land use changes, formulate options for transport planning (transit, roads, etc), create a plan, put it into implementation, design network for bus routes, plans for integrated public transport systems (timetabling, routes, etc),

    would I have to be a transport engineer or a transport planner?
    I'm a planner and I do or have done most of the above. As Greenescapist posted, you could be either to do that stuff. BUT, keep in mind that no one single person or even department would likely be doing all of those tasks you list on any individual project - it would be spread around between long-range planners, transit planners, design engineers, etc.

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