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Thread: The NEVERENDING Gas Price Thread

  1. #276
    Cyburbian Plus PlannerGirl's avatar
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    Had an interesting conversation with a fellow who owns/operates a gas station here in town. Seems he only makes .04 on the gallon and like many others is trying to find ways to save some cash as many stations are closing due to high cost to them. He was telling me that one of the big problems for the small operations is the high cost of credit card fees to the tune of 6-8 HUNDRED bucks every day and going up all the time. he said one of the ways hes tried to stay afloat and help out his community is he lowers his prices several cents after the rush Friday night and raises them late Sunday night, he lets his regulars know so they stock up cheap and he hits the commuter with the higher cost. Interesting

    I know where Ill be going to buy gas on the weekends and to have my car fixed
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin

    Remember this motto to live by: "Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming 'WOO- HOO what a ride!'"

  2. #277
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by boiker View post
    This a main reason why many nations have nationalized their oil production. It's a public utility. A reasonable profit is acceptable, but a large profit is not.

    Did you know that the oil companies margins are fairly thin compared to a lot of industry? They're profits are as high as they are due to VOLUME of production. The margin has very little to do with it. Oil companies also benefit from some of the best tax incentives around. Money is available for exploration, research, etc. That subsidy is killing the consumer.

    It is a public utility and it really should be treated as such IMO.

    As to your second point. I know that's what the oil companies keep saying - but I don't know that I believe it. For one thing, oil demand hasn't risen significantly since last year. This article says that US oil demand has decreased over the first few months of this year.

  3. #278
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    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner View post
    It is a public utility and it really should be treated as such IMO.
    Uh, yeah... a 'public resource' ... but it ain't finite. Once upon a time we had north sea oil but everything I read says it's getting down to dribs and drabs... Somehow I can't imagine Scottish devolution getting as far along as it has if they had Saudi-like deposits!

    US oil demand has decreased over the first few months of this year.
    Isn't the issue world-wide demand?

    But - the strike here is over, queues are gone and it's back to normal here at £1.29 per litre for diesel. Traffic was pretty quiet on Mon & Tue, but back to normal today. Anyway, it's so bl**dy wet and cold I don't really want to ride my bike anyway.

    Cheers fellow sufferers!

  4. #279
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by maryindevon View post

    Isn't the issue world-wide demand?

    Maybe I'm completely off target but it seems to me that the higher crude prices are an issue of world wide demand whereas the higher pump prices are a complex web of crude prices, taxes, and profit. The US companies having such a significant profit so far this year while US demand is down seems a little fishy if the explanation for their profit is only that the volume is what creates that huge profit. I'm also having a difficult time figuring out how $2 a gallon gas at 100 dollars a barrel translates into 4.50 a gallon gas at 140 a barrel - or why when it drops to 130 a barrel the pump prices don't go down.

  5. #280
    Cyburbian CJC's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner View post
    Maybe I'm completely off target but it seems to me that the higher crude prices are an issue of world wide demand whereas the higher pump prices are a complex web of crude prices, taxes, and profit. The US companies having such a significant profit so far this year while US demand is down seems a little fishy if the explanation for their profit is only that the volume is what creates that huge profit. I'm also having a difficult time figuring out how $2 a gallon gas at 100 dollars a barrel translates into 4.50 a gallon gas at 140 a barrel - or why when it drops to 130 a barrel the pump prices don't go down.
    When was gas at $2 a gallon while oil was $100 a barrel?

    Gas and oil prices certainly aren't entirely linked of course, but I can't see domestic demand edging down by a percentage point or two doing much of anything to prices of either. We still import a decent amount of actual gasoline as well (because of our restricted refining capacity).
    Two wrongs don't necessarily make a right, but three lefts do.

  6. #281
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by CJC View post
    When was gas at $2 a gallon while oil was $100 a barrel?
    .
    Apparantly never. It looks like it was about 60 a barrel when it was 2 dollars a gallon.

    But apparantly a barrel makes about 20 gallons of gas. Which means that at 140 a barrel gas would have to be 7 dollars a gallon to even make up for the cost of crude much less refining and transportation? Now I'm really confused.

  7. #282
    Cyburbian boiker's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner View post
    Apparantly never. It looks like it was about 60 a barrel when it was 2 dollars a gallon.

    But apparantly a barrel makes about 20 gallons of gas. Which means that at 140 a barrel gas would have to be 7 dollars a gallon to even make up for the cost of crude much less refining and transportation? Now I'm really confused.
    The contract resets month to month. The last month didn't expire at $140 (I think it was in the $120s?) The upcoming month will expire around $135 (at current rates).

    Also, other products are generated besides gas: kerosene, lubricants, deisel, etc.

    Expect gas prices to creep up another 10-15 cents over the next month.
    Dude, I'm cheesing so hard right now.

  8. #283
    Cyburbian zman's avatar
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    @ Resticted refining operations.

    People say that our gas prices are high because the environmentalists are hampering efforts to buil new refineries.

    I call BS on this one.

    Since when are the oil companies (and the governmental officials that love them) admitting failure to the environmentalists? Seems they have had the upper hand on the environment for a while. I call this pandering and scare-tactic mongering.
    If the oil companies wanted to build more refineries, they could certainly do so. They have not let the environmentalists stop them yet.

    ...and with that, I am off to work.
    You get all squeezed up inside/Like the days were carved in stone/You get all wired up inside/And it's bad to be alone

    You can go out, you can take a ride/And when you get out on your own/You get all smoothed out inside/And it's good to be alone
    -Peart

  9. #284
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by boiker View post
    The contract resets month to month. The last month didn't expire at $140 (I think it was in the $120s?) The upcoming month will expire around $135 (at current rates).

    Also, other products are generated besides gas: kerosene, lubricants, deisel, etc.
    So is there an easy way to determine the correlation between barrel and pump prices?

  10. #285
    Cyburbian boiker's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner View post
    So is there an easy way to determine the correlation between barrel and pump prices?
    I'm a lowly planner, not an economist

    Today I was starting to realize that I haven't heard anything from the other half of cyburbia regarding this issue. I would really appreciate hearing from Illinoisplanner and Michaelskis what they think of the recent call for more domestic drilling. I don't want to troll or attack, just discuss the options and review data.

    If the environmental costs can be managed and the government invests or requires major changes to urban development policy/transportation policy which will decrease our oil use over the next 5 years. Then I lean that we should exploit our domestic resources. But if we are using this as stop-gap to attempt to maintain the status-quo, we are only setting ourselves up for a bigger shock later when our last-ditch domestic supplies turn sour or run dry.
    Dude, I'm cheesing so hard right now.

  11. #286
    Cyburbian zman's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by boiker View post
    If the environmental costs can be managed and the government invests or requires major changes to urban development policy/transportation policy which will decrease our oil use over the next 5 years. Then I lean that we should exploit our domestic resources. But if we are using this as stop-gap to attempt to maintain the status-quo, we are only setting ourselves up for a bigger shock later when our last-ditch domestic supplies turn sour or run dry.
    I saw a vid on YouTube yesterday where a guy explained that our habitat (developed, urban/suburban landscapes) is more important than the far-off habitats of ANWAR (his example) or Colorado's Roan Plateau (my example). Therefore we should use all the oil from those areas first (without thought to vital ecosystems being destroyed) but this is after we use the oil from out strategic petroleum reserve first.

    Also he said that Iraq owes us for the "freedom" (my quotes) we gave them and should sell oil to us (once we repair the infrastructure we destroyed) to us at 40% below market value.

    I think that drilling can occur on domestic lands but I think that the environmental costs are higher than what could be provided.

    Isn't the reason we are getting oil from others now because there isn't a whole lot left in the US and what is left is hard/expensive to get?
    You get all squeezed up inside/Like the days were carved in stone/You get all wired up inside/And it's bad to be alone

    You can go out, you can take a ride/And when you get out on your own/You get all smoothed out inside/And it's good to be alone
    -Peart

  12. #287
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    Interesting Article:

    HEADLINE: Dearth of Ships Delays Drilling of Offshore Oil
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/19/bu...ef=todayspaper

    HIGHLIGHT:
    the world’s existing drill-ships are booked solid for the next five years.

    Demand is so high that shipbuilders, the biggest of whom are in Asia, have raised prices since last year by as much as $100 million a vessel to about half a billion dollars.
    Not to mention the number of trained and available crews for both the ship and drilling crew.
    Oddball
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    Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
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    No. Just some parts wake up faster than others.
    Broke parts take a little longer, though.
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  13. #288
    Cyburbian boiker's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by zmanPLAN View post
    I saw a vid on YouTube yesterday where a guy explained that our habitat (developed, urban/suburban landscapes) is more important than the far-off habitats of ANWAR (his example) or Colorado's Roan Plateau (my example).
    Funny you should say that. Today on CNN I overheard the reporter talking about the possible levee failure that could impact East St. Louis (withhold the 'and the big deal is?' comment) The reporter went on to say: "...and we're not just talking about flooding fields, we're talking about a casino, and the potential of 50,000 residents being impacted." My jaw hit the floor as I realized that the media just doesn't get it at all. A casino may provide jobs, but it is not a vital resource. The cost of lost food production is a much more significant issue than that of a casino/hotel.

    Isn't the reason we are getting oil from others now because there isn't a whole lot left in the US and what is left is hard/expensive to get?
    I think you're right. In a previous post, my back of the napkin numbers show that less than 5% of our daily use would be replaced by drilling in ANWAR and off-shore if they are drilled and pumped aggresively. That is less than 2% of the worldwide daily use. That will not affect the market prices. Also the numbers estimate that there is only 5 years or so of reserves available if aggresive drilling and production takes place. That's not sustainable. That's panic mode stop-gap. We need a MAJOR overhaul in how we run our economy and how we get our energy. It needs to be done now and can't be put off for 5 more years.

    Also- I support McCain's position to build 45 new nuclear reactors. That will help us transition or reduce our dependence on oil. The potential is certainly there for terrorism or meltdowns, but I think that it is a manageable risk.
    Dude, I'm cheesing so hard right now.

  14. #289
    Cyburbian zman's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by boiker View post
    I think you're right. In a previous post, my back of the napkin numbers show that less than 5% of our daily use would be replaced by drilling in ANWAR and off-shore if they are drilled and pumped aggresively. That is less than 2% of the worldwide daily use. That will not affect the market prices. Also the numbers estimate that there is only 5 years or so of reserves available if aggresive drilling and production takes place. That's not sustainable. That's panic mode stop-gap. We need a MAJOR overhaul in how we run our economy and how we get our energy. It needs to be done now and can't be put off for 5 more years.
    This just goes to show you that the plan of becoming "oil independent" and drilling our US soil for petroleum could maybe be a solution to not raise oil reserves at home but perhaps a last ditch effort for oil executives to make some more $$ before their product is gone (thus augmenting their bank reserves...)
    You get all squeezed up inside/Like the days were carved in stone/You get all wired up inside/And it's bad to be alone

    You can go out, you can take a ride/And when you get out on your own/You get all smoothed out inside/And it's good to be alone
    -Peart

  15. #290
    Cyburbian Plus Whose Yur Planner's avatar
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    Off-shore drilling has always been a back door way of attacking the environmental movement. If they can lessen the rules there, they can lessen the rules in other areas.. It's a way of giving back to the oil companies.
    When did I go from Luke Skywalker to Obi-Wan Kenobi?

  16. #291
    Cyburbian abrowne's avatar
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    Coming into this thread about 4 years late, but here goes.

    Regular gas is $1.43-1.49 CDN per litre in Vancouver. So that would be $5.34-5.57 US per US gallon. I think. Should be right. Yeah.

    And we've just added a carbon tax that will add about 4 cents per litre to the price, rising to 12 cents per litre by 2012 I believe. That's about... 14 cents per gallon initially, rising higher to 2012. The tax is to be revenue neutral for the government (though not necessarily to the individual taxpayer, this depends on income, driving habits, etc), so there are pretty significant income tax cuts coming online as of July 1st. We (BC) now have the lowest income tax in Canada, beating even Alberta (which is surprising). The government is also issuing a $100 cheque to every adult and child in the province--a climate action dividend--which is, admittedly, a bit of a gimmick to be spent on lightbulbs or beer or something.

    *shrug*

    Alaska should be left alone for the time-being. The reserves are just too small to bother with. I've heard 5-15 years before it's emptied. You might as well use Canadian oil sands, an area that is already being chopped up anyway. We're second only to Saudi Arabia in proven reserves.

    Also--hello again, I've been gone for... 2 years?

  17. #292
    Cyburbian boiker's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by abrowne View post
    Also--hello again, I've been gone for... 2 years?
    Off-topic:

    Welcome Back!


    btw, the answers are coming out: CNN LINK

    It seems that the oil companies didn't want to develop the 70 million acres of untapped oil fields (which they can currently drill) because they claimed it was too expensive and they were hoping that the gov would open up cheaper and easier to develop lands for explotation first.

    I remember stories back in the early 2000s that claimed when oil hit $50, $60, $70 a barrell it was profitable to drill in deep water and mine tar sands. Now we are at $135 and it's still to risky to develop deep water sites? I know that tapping these oils will take years and make a very diluated impact on the price of oil, but can't anyone be honest and do the best with what they have (i.e. the deep water oil fields).

    The government doesn't give ME a handout or make things easier for me if I ask.

    "boiker, can you pay for all your bills and such and take care of your family without us giving you monthly stipend of $1000? If so, the government asks you to continue what your doing. In fact, your balance sheet says you have $300 monthly that you don't allocate to anything, why is that?" "well, that last $300 is really hard to spend and if I was given another $1000 every month, I could more easily spend that and save the $300 when it might really be prudent to spend it."
    Last edited by boiker; 24 Jun 2008 at 11:51 AM.
    Dude, I'm cheesing so hard right now.

  18. #293
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    Intersting bar graph of world gas pump prices and taxes:
    http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/20...arsh-grfk.html

    Article Highlight:
    The chief reason for the disparity with the high-priced nations is taxation. Take away the taxes, and the remaining gas price is similar from place to place.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/we...an+pump&st=nyt
    Oddball
    Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves?
    Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here?
    Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
    From Kelly's Heroes (1970)


    Are you sure you're not hurt ?
    No. Just some parts wake up faster than others.
    Broke parts take a little longer, though.
    From Electric Horseman (1979)

  19. #294
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    Quote Originally posted by abrowne View post
    ...Regular gas is $1.43-1.49 CDN per litre in Vancouver. So that would be $5.34-5.57 US per US gallon. I think. Should be right. Yeah.

    And we've just added a carbon tax that will add about 4 cents per litre to the price, rising to 12 cents per litre by 2012 I believe. That's about... 14 cents per gallon initially, rising higher to 2012. ...
    Here in rural NSW (Australia), the cheapest Unleaded Petrol (Standard Gas) is A$1.629 per litre (= US$5.868/US gallon). And Diesel is A$1.859 per litre (=US$6.685 per US gallon). There has been an increase in price of about 80% over the past 5 years.

    Our politicans are whining, "Hey, I wish there was something we could do about the cost of fuel to help the poor taxpayers. But we already doing all we can!"

    Fuel cost in Australia is based on the Singapore Benchmark - which accounts for 40% of the retail price of fuel. Another 4% covers the cost of transport, wharfage etc. Another 8% is the wholesale and retail margin. The major whammy is the Australian Federal government's excise - a huge 39%. On top of that is the GST (Goods and Services Tax) amounting to 9% of the total price.

    This last, btw, amounts to a tax on a tax (for roughly half of it) - which is supposedly illegal. There was a suggestion discussed in parliament of eliminating the GST on the Excise component - which would drop the price a bit over 6c/litre. At least one state premier howled that this would mean a drop in revenue of over a billion dollars - and if adopted, the difference would have to be made up!

    Bull and baloney! And that goes for doing all they can too. The windfall revenue under the excise system, purely from the ever increasing price of fuel has already netted governments additional income far in excess of this puny reduction - which they apparently couldn't accept lest the government revenue be reduced!

  20. #295
    Cyburbian zman's avatar
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    Anyone else find that the Chrysler Corporation's new ad campaign to Save You from High Gas Prices rubs you the wrong way?

    Maybe it is the arrogance of DaimlerChrysler, or perhaps to rampant promotion of consumption... for some reason I just don't like it.

    Anyone help me pin down my feelings?
    You get all squeezed up inside/Like the days were carved in stone/You get all wired up inside/And it's bad to be alone

    You can go out, you can take a ride/And when you get out on your own/You get all smoothed out inside/And it's good to be alone
    -Peart

  21. #296
    Cyburbian Planit's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by zmanPLAN View post
    Anyone else find that the Chrysler Corporation's new ad campaign to Save You from High Gas Prices rubs you the wrong way?

    Maybe it is the arrogance of DaimlerChrysler, or perhaps to rampant promotion of consumption... for some reason I just don't like it.

    Anyone help me pin down my feelings?
    It's a nice little marketing campaign/gimmick they have isn't it? I think it's limited to 15000 miles per year @ $2.99 per gallon and your car/truck is rated at 24 mpg highway. That translates to a rebate (if you will) $1868.75 per year - if my math is right - so for 3 years its a $5600 "rebate" by a different name.

    Anyway that's my take on it.
    "Whatever beer I'm drinking, is better than the one I'm not." DMLW
    "Budweiser sells a product they reflectively insist on calling beer." John Oliver

  22. #297
    Cyburbian zman's avatar
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    It may just come down to their whole advertising campaign for the last couple years. I don't know. Just don't like it.
    You get all squeezed up inside/Like the days were carved in stone/You get all wired up inside/And it's bad to be alone

    You can go out, you can take a ride/And when you get out on your own/You get all smoothed out inside/And it's good to be alone
    -Peart

  23. #298
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    Quote Originally posted by Planit View post
    It's a nice little marketing campaign/gimmick they have isn't it? I think it's limited to 15000 miles per year @ $2.99 per gallon and your car/truck is rated at 24 mpg highway. .
    I don't get it... if your car does 36mpg, doing 15K miles and paying $4/gal it will cost you $1666. If you get a chrysler doing 24mpg running 15K miles and paying $3 per gal it's $1875. So isn't it still cheaper if you get the better milage car? If the price of petrol goes down, you're even better off with a high milage car. But... if petrol goes over $4.5 per gal, then being locked in at $3/g starts to save money (as long as the deal lasts). So I guess it's just appealing to short-termism? (If the prices go up and up however I would thinnk the second-hand value of a 24mpg car is going to be less and less as more effecient cars come on to the second hand market.

    I'd love to see one of the adverts - is it on the web anywhere?

    PS - If I've comepletely screwed up on the maths

  24. #299
    Cyburbian zman's avatar
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    here is a commercial, thanks to youtube.

    Chrysler $2.99 Gas

    Something about it just doesn't add up for me. I think that maryindevon is correct in assuming that it is certainly shrot term.

    In my mind, Chrysler makes poor quality cars and is behind the curve on gas milage. Their ads run to cater to the American "Joe 6-Pack" consumer and their whole, "Yeah, it's got a Hemi" ad campaign appeals to the last vestage of American motorist who takes pride in a thristy, but fast, engine. The whole premise of "Saving you from high gas prices" is to evoke a sense of entitlement to the Dodge/Jeep/Chrysler driver that high gas prices are the fault of someone else and the buying a thristy Dodge Durango will be a good choice.

    The cheap gas lasts for 3 years, coincidentially, so will your DaimlerChrysler vehicle.

    Maybe that is it? Something not as progressive.

    I mean GM is advertising gas-free, gas saving, and alternative fuel vehicles (and making a good attempt at catching Honda and Toyota) but Dodge seems to be holding on... to something.

    I will be talking about something else now as I apparently have been having trouble typing the name Chrysler.
    You get all squeezed up inside/Like the days were carved in stone/You get all wired up inside/And it's bad to be alone

    You can go out, you can take a ride/And when you get out on your own/You get all smoothed out inside/And it's good to be alone
    -Peart

  25. #300
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    Wow - just watched the advert! I know what grinds - its that happy, in-your-face upbeat tone of voice in the advert.

    FUEL? NO PROBLEM! HEY DRIVE & DRIVE BIG WITH OUR BIG CAR. WE'LL KEEP YOU HAVING HAPPY TIMES LONG AFTER THE PARTY'S OVER AND SOME LITTLE PEOPLE ARE CLEANING UP THE MESS. DON'T WORRY - DRIVE BIG - PAY LATER.

    Oh well, I'll keep this in mind over the next few years.... all I can say is if/when petrol is $8/gal I don't fancy the second hand value of the giant jeep thingies. Of course if it's swings and roundabouts and you're back at $3/gal then you're suckered anyway.

    But RESPECT. If you offered most of UK drivers $3/gal (as opposed to $8/gal that we pay) they'd take it up no matter what the vehicle!

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