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#1 | |
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Cyburbia Administrator
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Lifestyle center vs deteriorating 1940s plaza: alternative press prefers the latter
From the Cleveland Free Times. My photos and commentary follow. (Website down for the past week, so I'm reproducing the article here.)
Quote:
Here's what Cedar Center looked like a couple of years ago: ![]() ![]() ![]() Current aerial photo: ![]() Here's what's planned: ![]() ![]() I thought I left the prevailing "battered and gritty is more authentic, real and honest, and thus preferable" mindset behind in Buffalo, but apparently I'm wrong. Sorry, but as both a planner, and a South Euclid resident and homeowner with two vacant foreclosed houses at the end of his block, a foreclosure in the process next door, and negative equity thanks to plunging property values, I'll take the upscale, mixed-use pedestrian-friendly mini-lifestyle center over keepin' it real with a poorly-maintained plaza from the late 1940s. It's a significant upgrade, reflects good planning practice -- although it would be even better if the buildings fronted directly on the street -- and will help stabilize an inner ring suburb that is experiencing growing economic toil. I'll miss the Jewish-oriented businesses at the old Cedar Center, but there's many in South Euclid that will remain at Kosher Corners (Cedar/Green), and throughout the eastern suburbs. |
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#2 |
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Cyburbian
Registered: Nov 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 3,297
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Its the "nuclear option" that I think brought out this viewpoint. How can an alternative weekly not criticize a city using eminent domain for shopping center developers and dispacing local business?
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#3 |
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Cyburbian
Registered: May 2005
Location: New Town
Posts: 1,854
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This seems like a tough one on a few levels. I think Seabishop is right in speculating why the weekly free press took the stance they did. People often values places not just because of the functionality or aesthetics, but because of the stories they tell or the emotional investment they have in a place.
Still, things change, and change has the potential to narrate new stories of place. The realities of what happens to those businesses currently there is a tough one, especially as they seem to be mainly locally owned and operated. This is a tough sticking point in general, though, as nearly every major change of this sort (from closing a base and redeveloping the land to razing a dilapidated strip mall) results in negative economic impacts for someone, from the local cleaner that had a contract on the base to the family restaurant forced to relocate or close its doors. My own opinion (from the safe distance of New Mexico) is that the mono-use, car-oriented nature of '40s era shopping strips (or "plazas" if you want to cal them that, though they claim a tentative relationship to the longer standing plaza that has been the mainstay of settlements the world over) are limited in their appeal and functionality. Adding housing, for example, greatly increases the liklihood that this could be a lively, functioning, socially healthy place and that the mini plaza featured in the plans would actually be used and not become just a scary place after dark. Of course, this also hinges on the kind of retail that goes in, the price of the housing units and many other less tangible factors, but the potential is there. If retail spaces are kept small and affordable enough, those Jewish neighborhood delis (or similar) still have a chance of affording it and surviving. If the spaces are too large and expensive, though, its gonna be chains all the way, and that would just suck for everyone. It reminds me a bit of this place: http://www.abquptown.com/ called ABQ Uptown. In some ways, the design makes it much more pleasant to stroll and shop - the scale of buildings is good, they have cornice lines to create a "room" feeling, the lighting is well-scaled, there are restaurants, etc. But its ALL chains, making me feel like I am walking through the world's longest commercial break, desperately waiting for the show that is my life to come back on. It really bugs me. Currently, they have no housing there, but they are planning on it in the near future. I still can't quite put my finger on what bothers me so much about ABQ Uptown (beyond the name) - maybe it is the sanitary feeling, the lack of any local flavor, or simply the fact that they have packaged the mall experience (which was also never very fond of) in new clothes. Maybe its because its so new. I just don't know, but I cringe if I have to go (the Mac store is there where our machines are serviced). Try to avoid that if you can...
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Arts and Community Development |
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#4 | |
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Cyburbian
Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Heaven or Las Vegas
Posts: 913
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Its amazing what some people can develop sentimentality for. The old one is pretty awful, aesthetically speaking. I couldn't bring myself to come to its defense even if the owner of the Jewish deli was my best friend. If there is a demand for a jewish deli in that area, one will come to occupy space in the new center or one near there. I don't think anyone dreams about waitressing in the same deli for the rest of their lives. Sure it is a temporary upset, a shock to the system, but what's better for the community? When buyers see that there is investment being made into the community at large, it boosts property values. Bot one thing that does bother me about these 'lifestyle centers' is that they are predominantly chain stores that one finds all over the place. It would be nice to see some local color. One thing they could do is offer incentives to locally owned businesses. There is a giant new development here in LV that intends to do that. http://http://www.sullivansquarelasvegas.com/ Whether they will be able to pull it off or not is another story.
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Spoiler (highlight to read):
Last edited by boilerplater; 2008-01-30 at 04:34 PM. Reason: fixed link |
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#5 |
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Spit Roasting Some Clunkers
Registered: May 2003
Location: The junkyard
Posts: 6,701
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I agree with Seabishop that perhaps the "nuclear option" was what set the opposition into defense mode.
But I think the solution is to find suitable relocation spaces for the existing tenants and disrupt their business as little as possible. The plan for the new development is OK, but far from great. I do like the residential and office above the commercial and structured parking.
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I'm sorry. Is my bias showing? Form/Function does not always follow function/form - despite the preaching of certain Modernists. |
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#6 |
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Cyburbian Plus
![]() Registered: Jan 2005
Location: graveyard of ideas
Posts: 1,805
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The city certainly could have dealt with the tenants in a fairer manner, but legally they didn't to.
I like the new design actually. There is at least some variation in the buildings rather than a single roof line with a bunch of different parapet heights, a cheap gesture to individuality a lot of suburban retail developers go for. Dan: what is the other high-profile E.D. case in NE Ohio? There was a 60 minutes segment on it one time, IIRC. |
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#7 | |
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Cyburbian
Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Samsara
Posts: 5,059
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Dan
Thanks for letting us all take a big, long bong hit on a fresh, well-packed bowl of irony. Quote:
At first Kelo was pronounced as good news and the left is in love. The expansion of the powers of government over those of the individual was heralded and defended by every newspaper editorial I found. The lawyers went into overdrive showing up at planning conferences telling us how this had really always been the law and Kelo was just a restatement of many earlier cases and that Public Use could really mean all kinds of things. Now it appears Kelo is bad bad bad because it is abusing the twelve guys with ponytails that buy their hippie hipster paper. I guess when you live by Kelo sometimes you die by Kelo. I guess what comrade Perloffski is truly saying is that a contract is a contract unless it hurts the workers of the world. To me this is the only upside of Kelo I've encountered. I hope they start using Kelo to take the offices, homes, and the speculative investment properties of our friends in the press and liberal lawyers.
Last edited by el Guapo; 2008-01-30 at 10:15 PM. |
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#8 |
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Cyburbian
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 106
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What happens if Coral doesn't buy the property, or if they buy it but can't attract any tenants?
The government would be humiliated and people would observe a piece of land made unproductive by government bureaucrats. |
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#9 |
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Cyburbian
Registered: Mar 2005
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1,108
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The underlying assumption of the article is that some property, indeed a specific property, should be kept shabby so that marginal uses have a place to rent...
Duh. In any case, it may be in the longer-term iunterst of an area to maintain some lower-earning but essential/useful uses in the area and that can presumably be 'legislated/regulated' in. Where I live (Chiswick, London)., the high (main) street has changed a lot in terms of retail offerings over the last 8 years. Some decry the proliferation of mobile phone shops and cofee shops and the disappeareance of the two existign ahrddware stores...but then they buy a new mobile every year, the cofee shops are always packed and the alst tiem they bought soemthign from a ahrdware store they drove to Hiomebase (about 3/4 mile away, big box with front parking, etc., to save 5 p on as 1.05 pack of tacks......
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Life and death of great pattern languages |
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#10 |
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Cyburbian Plus
![]() Registered: Jan 2005
Location: graveyard of ideas
Posts: 1,805
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#11 |
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Cyburbian
Registered: Aug 2001
Location: The Cheese State
Posts: 8,251
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With companies like Whole Foods opening shop next door, it seems this is an area ripe for redevelopment. The problem with redevelopment, though, is that it tends to force out the local businesses in favor of national chains. Don't get me wrong. I am not against chains and I am not advocating for the little guy.
What I mean to point out is that commercial strips, malls, and lifestyle centers are all failing to keep our interest because they are all the same. Continued studies show that we spend less time shopping and take fewer shopping trips. A good part of this is because there is so little diversity in where we can shop. At the same time, the top-ranked vacation activity is... shopping. That is not Home Depot or the mall, though. It is a quaint downtown or a eclectic urban neighborhood. As developers, planners, and economic developers, I think the real challenge for us is to find ways in which we can redevelop an area while preserving its unique businesses. I'm not mourning Chipotle. I expect they may show up in the redeveloped property. The loss is a restaurant like Abbas. Too bad there was not a way that they could be part of the new tenant mix.
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APA - Extorting money from professional planners for 25 years |
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#12 | |
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Cyburbia Administrator
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Quote:
It would have been nice to see the city go above and beyond the call of duty, and help existing businesses in the shopping center. Relocation within SE would have been difficult, though. There's not many retail vacancies, and what's out there is mostly along Mayfield Road, a mile north of the core of the Orthodox Jewish community that lines Cedar Road. Still, the city was under no obligation to help. |
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#13 |
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Cyburbian
Registered: Mar 2007
Location: Lowering the PCI in the Hills
Posts: 1,514
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With the term "Plaza" in the title, I was expecting the old shopping center to have a tiled central area with beautiful fountains, benches, and old folks feeding flocks of doves.
Back on topic... I agree with some of the earlier posters that the city and the landlords could have given more time and/or better terms to their tenants, but it seems no law was broken here and such is the nature of the game when a tenant knowingly enters into a lease. With the development happening across the street in this example, it sounds like it was only a matter of time before South Euclid would have wanted to provide some type of substantial competition and lure some of that investment into their city. I happen to like the new design quite a bit over the old. As far as the set-back goes, two rows of parking in the front is not too bad, especially if the development across the street has something at a similar scale (one row of angled parking would probably have been sufficient though).
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"Obviously you're not a golfer." - The Dude |
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#14 | |
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Cyburbian
Registered: Nov 2006
Location: Jamestown, New York
Posts: 481
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Quote:
Nostalgia for "times past" seems to be an overriding concern in and around Buffalo, which is why so much doesn't get done in the city. Of course, that's not necessarily true of the suburbs ... the deep-pocket "preservationists" seem to have definite limits as to where they'll spend their money preventing change, and the suburbs are definitely "outside the Pale"!Seriously, though, retail trends change over time, and most of the 1950s' plazas and 1960s' strip malls are pretty well out-dated, especially where the properties haven't been well maintained over the years. A seedy looking, half-empty little strip mall or plaza is not particularly inviting, but if the owners invest in their property, it can be a prosperous and welcome addition to any community. The little plaza on Delaware Avenue at the corner of Great Arrow in Buffalo has been around since the 1950s (I remember going to the old A&P store as a little girl with my mom), but has been continually upgraded over the decades and remains a busy commercial site in the North Buffalo shopping district. Another older plaza from the 1950s or 1960s, Stuyvesant, off Western Avenue in Guilderland (outside of Albany, NY) has also been well maintained and modernized over the decades, and has gone decidedly upscale/eclectic to compete with the nearby Crossgates, Crossgates Commons, and Colony Center shopping centers. It seems to me that the "nasty old city" of SE is trying to do what the owners of the plaza wouldn't do. If the plaza owners had maintained and updated their property to attract more businesses, it would have been too valuable an asset for the city to take. |
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#15 |
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Cyburbian
Registered: Sep 2004
Location: WA
Posts: 107
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Linda D. yes. had the owners maintained repositioned, etc their building the city would not have taken it over. . .but since the owners received fair market value. . .or something close to it, I don't think anyone feels too bad for them.
The issues, are that local businesses are being pushed out without relocation assistance (in many cases). . .and while I know nothing about this community and there may be another slightly better maintained strip mall for them to move into, in many towns there is a lack of cheap retail space. I don't know if the "atomic" strategy used here was appropriate or not, but I think that most of us could agree that the hard work of bolstering existing neighborhoods (including their local businesses) is not done enough, nor done earnestly when attempted. |
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