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Thread: Civil Servant = Sitting Duck (Kirkwood MO)

  1. #1
    Cyburbian el Guapo's avatar
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    Civil Servant = Sitting Duck (Kirkwood MO)

    http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/new...F?OpenDocument

    Quote Originally posted by St. Louis Post Dispatch
    Six dead, 2 injured in Kirkwood shooting
    From staff reports
    ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
    02/08/2008
    FEBRUARY 7, 2008 - Police officers at the scene of a shooting at Kirkwood City Hall.
    (Robert Cohen/P-D)

    Six people, including two Kirkwood police officers, a Kirkwood city council woman and the gunman, were killed tonight at Kirkwood City Hall, a St. Louis County police spokeswoman said about 9:25 p.m. Two others were wounded. And one of the wounded at St. John's Mercy Medical center is in critical condition.

    Tom Noonan, a former Kirkwood council member, made a statement to the media confirming that the mayor is in critical condition.
    "We are all shocked not only about the mayor but everyone involved," he said.

    Officer Tracy Panus said the man approached City Hall and shot one officer outside, then entered the building and shot and killed another officer.

    "He shot three other people who were attending the council meeting. They also are deceased," she said. "One of the members attending the the board meeting was transported to an area hospital."

    The Post-Dispatch has confirmed that one of the dead was city council woman Connie Karr.
    You can read the rest of the story at the link. By tomorrow morning I am sure there will be more details.

    1. One of the costs of our freedom is that some people that are mentally ill, antisocial, or otherwise very dysfunctional are left free to roam our nation.

    2. Some of these people become a threat to others and are thus dangerous if not outright evil.

    3. In our society, and almost every other one on earth, evil people can get axes, guns, bomb materials, baseball bats, Ryder trucks and Ginsu knives. If we lived on an Island without technology someone would kill someone else with a coconut eventually. A really evil bastard would find a way to shoot multiple coconuts into a crowd. One in a million would figure out how to mix rock powder and sling exploding coconuts into our island paradise houses of learning.

    4. You can't predict when or where evil people will strike. But the law of averages says you can count on it happening regularly. It even happens in "enlightened and progressive" nations.

    5. You can even have cops present when and where you expect evil may strike and evil can shoot them dead first and then kill everyone in the room.

    6. No one but you is responsible for your security. Ask a cop. He isn't there to protect you. He is there for so many other reasons that don't include you in the top 10.

    7. No one can really be responsible for protecting you but yourself, and you can't protect yourself by wishing reality away. You have to be aware of your surroundings, mentally prepared, and have trained for your own defense. Or accept whatever the random nature of society throws in your path. Much like a sheep.

    8. Gun free zones like schools, churches, airports, civil aviation and stadiums make those people bunching up there more likely to be killed by evil people. Do you read the news?

    9. You have a right to defend yourself. Don't kid yourself. The politicians don't care if YOU die. Your safely is just an issue to play for votes. Both sides will cut your throat for more power.

    10. You have a duty, if you are capable, to defend others in danger while defending yourself. If bad stuff happens in front of you - you must aid your fellow man.

    11. It is time that all law-abiding and willing citizens (including us civil servants) who have the wherewithal to defend themselves and others have the right to carry at work.

    12. Lawful Conclead Carry Permit holders are not a threat to pacifits, law abiding citizens, children, the police or anyone but someone threatening them. They do not charge into crime scenes looking to shoot badguys.

    13. Because you may not be ready to defend yourself it is cowardly of you to use your vote out of fear or ingnroance to keep me from defending myself and my family, and maybe you if we are at the same Taco Bell when some idot starts shooting.

    14. There are exceptions to every rule. My way, the right way, the honest way will result in fewer innocent people being killed by bad people. But, if you prefer the warm fuzzy of having the law abiding disarmed and the criminal element armed then please do so with the blood of the innocents who will die visible on your hands as you cast your pro "gun control" votes. You can be a liberal and still understand the reality of the situation. I'll bet some of those that died tonight may have been liberals and I regret their deaths as much as the others.

    15. PLEASE note we didn't discuss background checks, waiting periods, gun security, or even registration. Some of those issues have merit. We can talk about them elsewhere.

    We are talking about felony free, throughly criminally background checked, legally tested on CCW law, mental illness background checked, hands-on firing range and gun safety tested, fingerprinted, registered with local law enforcement, liscensed law abiding citizens being able to defend themselves, their families and maybe even YOU!!!


    These are my thoughts after reading another stupid mass shooting story where law abiding citizens with guns allowed to carry in that gun-free zone may have been able to lower the death count.
    Last edited by el Guapo; 08 Feb 2008 at 1:45 AM.

  2. #2
    Cyburbian Plus JNA's avatar
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    eG - the link did not work.

    For interested here is another link to try:
    http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/new...A?OpenDocument
    Oddball
    Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves?
    Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here?
    Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
    From Kelly's Heroes (1970)


    Are you sure you're not hurt ?
    No. Just some parts wake up faster than others.
    Broke parts take a little longer, though.
    From Electric Horseman (1979)

  3. #3
    Cyburbian Jen's avatar
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    terrible terrible news

    Were the police that got shot unarmed? Sounds like they were ambushed.

    Damn, no reason that issue had to escalete to this, my sympathies to Kirkwood, Mo.

  4. #4
    Corn Burning Fool giff57's avatar
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    Buy stock in metal detectors, cities will buy a bunch after this. The Chief is behind the council table. There are at least two of us behind the table that could grab his gun if he goes down. We also designed an exit door behind the table.

    We think about this kind of thing because the same thing happened up the road about 20 years ago.

    City Hall is a weapons free zone, that happened because of a wacky councilman that carried and tended to get worked up during meetings. (before I got here)
    “As soon as public service ceases to be the chief business of the citizens, and they would rather serve with their money than with their persons, the State is not far from its fall”
    Jean-Jacques Rousseau

  5. #5
    Cyburbian Planit's avatar
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    Our thoughts and prayers go out to Kirkwood

    Many of us have been in meetings and other places where a citizen is just past a point a reason. In that case, I'm sure we've sat there and thought they might be one short circuit away from...snap.

    Our Commissioners room has one way in and one way out. Next meeting the BOC will be reviewing a gun discharging ordinance, but the papers have slanted it as a gun control ordinance. I wasn't looking forward to it in the first place. Now I am even more concerned. We have had our share of cussing by the public and even an 85 year old man filp off the BOC.

    A metal detactors would not have stopped the guy in Kirkwood, cops with guns did not before him killed several. We all should become much more observant of our surrounding environment.
    "Whatever beer I'm drinking, is better than the one I'm not." DMLW
    "Budweiser sells a product they reflectively insist on calling beer." John Oliver

  6. #6
    moderator in moderation Suburb Repairman's avatar
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    eG,

    Ready for a fun one? I am, by many accounts, a flaming liberal (was going to be an Edwards vote, but now an Obama vote). I also have a conceal & carry permit. I go to the shooting range about once a month.

    Our department and the Police department have expressed concern over the last five years about building security and how to handle emergencies like this. We'll see if this has gotten the Council's attention now.

    My heart goes out to the folks in Kirkwood. I've always felt that despite my feelings about elected officials and annoying members of the public, that they should be commended for actively participating in democracy. I hate seeing folks taken down like this, especially when they were there really taking an interest in their community.

    "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

    - Herman Göring at the Nuremburg trials (thoughts on democracy)

  7. #7
    Cyburbian TOFB's avatar
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    This happens too often. Council Chambers need to be treated like Courthouses. Metal detectors and armed police at all Council, Board and Commission meetings. Arrest people who make threatening remarks to staff and elected/appointed officials.

  8. #8
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    Our city hall is not a gun free zone, and if it weren't for my personnel manual, I'd carry my 9mm on my hip. Of course, it does not prevent my wife from sitting in the back with it on her lap. While I am a fairly good shot, she can put a hole in a half dollar from thirty paces!
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  9. #9
    Cyburbian boilerplater's avatar
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    While not rabidly anti-gun (I've found myself window-shopping for pistols lately) would anyone like to discuss why you rarely hear about stuff like this happening in Sweden or Germany? Are they more civil on average? Are there fewer mentally unstable people? Is it because it is so much more difficult to get guns? I've read that in Switzerland most households own firearms, but you never hear about crazies shooting up a workplace or city council there. Are people in the US pushed closer to the breaking point?
    Adrift in a sea of beige

  10. #10
    Cyburbian Veloise's avatar
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    Civil servants: possible guano targets in my town

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=074_1202454124

    Jacket!Commissioner was stationed with my bicycle assembly team in December. (Looks like he's done that before.) And the attractive young woman is my rep on the commission.

  11. #11
    Cyburbian
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    Quote Originally posted by boilerplater View post
    While not rabidly anti-gun (I've found myself window-shopping for pistols lately) would anyone like to discuss why you rarely hear about stuff like this happening in Sweden or Germany? Are they more civil on average? Are there fewer mentally unstable people? Is it because it is so much more difficult to get guns? I've read that in Switzerland most households own firearms, but you never hear about crazies shooting up a workplace or city council there. Are people in the US pushed closer to the breaking point?
    One thing to keep in mind is the size of the population. The US has something like 300 million. Switzerland has something like 7.5 million. On that basis alone you would expect the US to have 40x more of these situations.

  12. #12
    Cyburbian Zoning Goddess's avatar
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    Metal detectors give a false sense of security. If the guys on the front line get gunned down, all bets are off.

    I asked my bosses on my last couple of planning jobs... so, if someone comes gunning for me in a public hearing, are you going to throw your self in front of me? They just laughed, said they'd be flying out the back door to the chamber rooms, I better follow. I don't think people in other jobs think about how much planners have to consider this... cops in our meetings, etc. I was in one controversial hearing where we had a handful of deputies assigned to specific nutcases in the audience, it was scary.

    But most of the time, even though the commission had a "panic" button, there were no cops on site, it summoned them, but it could take 10-15 min to get someone there.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally posted by Zoning Goddess View post
    Metal detectors give a false sense of security. If the guys on the front line get gunned down, all bets are off.

    I asked my bosses on my last couple of planning jobs... so, if someone comes gunning for me in a public hearing, are you going to throw your self in front of me? They just laughed, said they'd be flying out the back door to the chamber rooms, I better follow. I don't think people in other jobs think about how much planners have to consider this... cops in our meetings, etc. I was in one controversial hearing where we had a handful of deputies assigned to specific nutcases in the audience, it was scary.

    But most of the time, even though the commission had a "panic" button, there were no cops on site, it summoned them, but it could take 10-15 min to get someone there.
    Reminds of a place were I worked 5,6 years ago. We had a nutjob who had threatened me in my office. When the hearing came up for the case, we had several plain clothes deputies in the audience. Your right, other professions don't have to worry about this. I also worked in a couple of courthouses that were cleared out because of bomb threats. I think of Oklahoma City during times like that. I guess a couple of the required planning classes in college should be "duck and cover" and firearms training.
    When did I go from Luke Skywalker to Obi-Wan Kenobi?

  14. #14
    Cyburbian Tide's avatar
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    I would have put money on this, but for the first time there were two on duty sheriff's officers at the County Council meeting tonight one stationed up front and one by the back door. I'm hoping that this is for good and not a one time showing of some support. Metal detectors are more nusance than need be, alert officers are your best cover.
    @GigCityPlanner

  15. #15
         
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    There were two officers in the Council Chambers that evening and one in the parking lot. The man that did this had been arrested in at a council meeting prior to this.
    One of the officers was approached outside sitting in his car and shot point blank. The other officer was shot at the entrance to the council chambers. I am not sure ANYthing could have stopped this citizen from entering the chambers other than locked doors. This man was on a mission, a mission that he had started before this evening. The City of Kirkwood has had its share of unfortunate events over the past few years, the community is really coming together to move past this as well. The funerals were held yesterday, hundreds of officers and citizens were at the policemens services. It has shocked the entire St. Louis metro region and has already had a major impact on the way Council meetings are being held.

  16. #16
    Cyburbian Plus JNA's avatar
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    BUMP UPDATE

    HEADLINE: Former Kirkwood Mayor Mike Swoboda dies
    http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/new...8?OpenDocument

    HIGHLIGHT:
    Seven months after surviving two gunshot wounds to his head, former Kirkwood Mayor Mike Swoboda died this morning after a brief stay in a hospice.
    Oddball
    Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves?
    Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here?
    Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
    From Kelly's Heroes (1970)


    Are you sure you're not hurt ?
    No. Just some parts wake up faster than others.
    Broke parts take a little longer, though.
    From Electric Horseman (1979)

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