The unemployed planner support thread

[jwhitty]

You expect to get a job in a very competitive field but you don't feel entitled? Many people in your position take a job to pay their bills and keep looking for work in the field. You have options but you feel entitled to a planning job.

I commend you for your perseverance but thinking no other generation understands what you are going through is very short sighted. There are many people on these boards that have worked hard, paid their dues and through no fault of their own got laid off and have to find work doing non planning jobs to pay their bills.

You are very special with your two degrees, some minor planning work, all of your very marketable skills, an internship and a ton of interviews.

There's some of that entitlement culture sentiment I was missing before!

[Silverdude2167]

You expect to get a job in a very competitive field but you don't feel entitled? Many people in your position take a job to pay their bills and keep looking for work in the field. You have options but you feel entitled to a planning job.

I commend you for your perseverance but thinking no other generation understands what you are going through is very short sighted. There are many people on these boards that have worked hard, paid their dues and through no fault of their own got laid off and have to find work doing non planning jobs to pay their bills.

You are very special with your two degrees, some minor planning work, all of your very marketable skills, an internship and a ton of interviews.

I have two jobs plus a unpaid internship, what more would you expect of me? Am I not working hard enough for you? What more would you like to see me do, before I am worthy of a job in your opinion?

How long did it take for you to get your first job out of school?

Are you aware of the economic situation that existed from after WWII to the recent economic collapse? I bet you it is exponentially more difficult to get a job now than then.

You are not understanding my point, those people who have gotten laid off are also in a very difficult situation, one that has not existed since prior to WWII, this is a response to a post about how my generation feels entitled and wants our dream jobs handed to us. There is nothing entitled about what I expect.

For prior generations to attack my generation for venting about the current work environment, that is what is short sighted. It must be great to criticize those who expect a job, not a great job mind you but something with benifts. The horror of expecting maybe the tiniest sliver of the "American Dream" I know it is a crock of shit, but hey marketing firms are good at their jobs. Maybe if prior generations had not run the economy into the ground I would not have to worry about getting a job and the future of this country. Good job guys, I'm just glad you can look down your noses at my generations predicament, a situation your generation placed us in.

But your right, I should just forget about planning, how dare I desire to work in a field I have a degree in and have worked in for a year, for free.

Would you feel any different if you were in my shoes? Ask your self that question before you attack me for defending my generation and our struggle. A**


You should switch teams, you sound far more like a "Pensioners" than a Gooner.

*Hink Let us remember to be civil. Name calling is not necessary. We all want to have a cordial discussion. Let's keep it that way. Consider this a warning.

[Cardinal]

I have said it before and it is worth repeating. The best planners I have hired have had degrees in geography. Sure, that is partly because of the work I do . I need people who can do research on a broad variety of topics, and a geography education seems to better prepare people for that than a degree in planning. But take away this point: a degree is only one piece of the puzzle. Your experience, your location (where you are or more importantly where you are willing to go), your innate talents, your network, your luck, and many other factors all go into getting that first job and later ones. Do not expect to get to your dream job with your first job. It is a stepping stone. I used my first couple jobs to gain experience, hone skills, and fund graduate school. My next job required me to take a pay cut and move to work in a rural community, but put me in a director's position that let me get the next job. This led to a high profile job that, more than anything else, confirmed that I wanted to consult instead. Another take-away: what you want changes over time. Some people may start out with planning, get disallusioned, and move to another field. If they like it, great. But if you want a career in planning, keep trying different approaches until you get it right. Don't be talked out of pursuing your interests just to have "work", even if you have to take a detour now and then.

[hilldweller]

I have said it before and it is worth repeating. The best planners I have hired have had degrees in geography. Sure, that is partly because of the work I do . I need people who can do research on a broad variety of topics, and a geography education seems to better prepare people for that than a degree in planning.

Geography is the course I took in college to get an easy A, so I'm surprised that you value a geography degree so highly. I don't think geography is all that much different than planning as far as a subject of study, and neither is particularly challenging IMO.

[Backstrom]

Geography is the course I took in college to get an easy A, so I'm surprised that you value a geography degree so highly. I don't think geography is all that much different than planning as far as a subject of study, and neither is particularly challenging IMO.

Well, he didn't say he valued geography degrees. He said the best planners he hired happened to be geography majors. Plus, not all geography majors are one and the same. A GIS student is probably more valuable than a political geography major, at least when it comes to planning.

[Brocktoon]

I have two jobs plus a unpaid internship, what more would you expect of me? Am I not working hard enough for you? What more would you like to see me do, before I am worthy of a job in your opinion?

How long did it take for you to get your first job out of school?

Are you aware of the economic situation that existed from after WWII to the recent economic collapse? I bet you it is exponentially more difficult to get a job now than then.

You are not understanding my point, those people who have gotten laid off are also in a very difficult situation, one that has not existed since prior to WWII, this is a response to a post about how my generation feels entitled and wants our dream jobs handed to us. There is nothing entitled about what I expect.

For prior generations to attack my generation for venting about the current work environment, that is what is short sighted. It must be great to criticize those who expect a job, not a great job mind you but something with benifts. The horror of expecting maybe the tiniest sliver of the "American Dream" I know it is a crock of shit, but hey marketing firms are good at their jobs. Maybe if prior generations had not run the economy into the ground I would not have to worry about getting a job and the future of this country. Good job guys, I'm just glad you can look down your noses at my generations predicament, a situation your generation placed us in.

But your right, I should just forget about planning, how dare I desire to work in a field I have a degree in and have worked in for a year, for free.

Would you feel any different if you were in my shoes? Ask your self that question before you attack me for defending my generation and our struggle. A**


You should switch teams, you sound far more like a "Pensioners" than a Gooner.

*Hink Let us remember to be civil. Name calling is not necessary. We all want to have a cordial discussion. Let's keep it that way. Consider this a warning.

Man you do have an entitlement mentality...I don't look down at your generation just people like you that think the world owes them a job because they got a degree and worked unpaid for a year. You expect a job with benefits but are you doing to earn that job? Its other generations fault because you can't get a job...its age discrimination because you don't have work.

I have over 30 years before I can retire. I probably have 10 years or so on you and like you when I graduated I felt entitled to a high paying job with benefits. Like you my parents bank rolled me until I figured out that I was not special, I did not deserve a job...I had to earn a job and fight hard to keep it. I found work for a tech company dot.com during the bust, in the financial services industry right before 9/11, in Michigan during its lost decade and in Arizona during the worst recession the state had ever seen. I was never handed a job. I have been in the workforce for 14 years and have lived through 4 recessions. I could call you names like a spoiled, thinned skinned brat but I know your frustrated and your lashing out was anger because this is not how you saw your life.

You feel you are owed the American Dream...what you fail to realize is that you have to work for it...you have to make sacrifices for it. You want a job with benefits but it has to be a planning job. Why not take a job in another field that has related skills while looking for planning jobs? You chose a field that has been shrinking for 6 years. What is more important, paying your bills or realizing a dream you feel entitled?

If you really want to find a planning job then read this thread and others like it. There is some great advice on how to find planning jobs. You will find posts on how people found their first planning jobs in small communities, COG's and other areas and started to build their resume and have moved on to better things. You might have to work in East Jesus, Nebraska, or Pigs Knuckle Alaska or are these small communities not good enough for you?

I will give you credit you know your soccer...Up the Gunners!

[Silverdude2167]

Man you do have an entitlement mentality...I don't look down at your generation just people like you that think the world owes them a job because they got a degree and worked unpaid for a year. You expect a job with benefits but are you doing to earn that job? Its other generations fault because you can't get a job...its age discrimination because you don't have work.

I have over 30 years before I can retire. I probably have 10 years or so on you and like you when I graduated I felt entitled to a high paying job with benefits. Like you my parents bank rolled me until I figured out that I was not special, I did not deserve a job...I had to earn a job and fight hard to keep it. I found work for a tech company dot.com during the bust, in the financial services industry right before 9/11, in Michigan during its lost decade and in Arizona during the worst recession the state had ever seen. I was never handed a job. I have been in the workforce for 14 years and have lived through 4 recessions. I could call you names like a spoiled, thinned skinned brat but I know your frustrated and your lashing out was anger because this is not how you saw your life.

You feel you are owed the American Dream...what you fail to realize is that you have to work for it...you have to make sacrifices for it. You want a job with benefits but it has to be a planning job. Why not take a job in another field that has related skills while looking for planning jobs? You chose a field that has been shrinking for 6 years. What is more important, paying your bills or realizing a dream you feel entitled?

If you really want to find a planning job then read this thread and others like it. There is some great advice on how to find planning jobs. You will find posts on how people found their first planning jobs in small communities, COG's and other areas and started to build their resume and have moved on to better things. You might have to work in East Jesus, Nebraska, or Pigs Knuckle Alaska or are these small communities not good enough for you?

I will give you credit you know your soccer...Up the Gunners!

Read the link that I originally was replying to, if you want to understand my points.
What have I said that presents the image of being entitled? I am taking whatever work I can find and making it work. Am I disappointed that I have yet to come across full time work, yes. Do I expect to be given a job, no.

I don't understand your perception that I believe I am special, I am willing to and have been paying my dues. I am just of the opinion that after a year, I should be able to obtain an entry level position. Not high paying, but full time with benefits.

Finally, depending on your age, if you were born between 1970-1990, this article that I was originally responding to was insulting you as feeling entitled as well.

[OfficialPlanner]

I don't understand your perception that I believe I am special, I am willing to and have been paying my dues. I am just of the opinion that after a year, I should be able to obtain an entry level position. Not high paying, but full time with benefits.

Have you looked outside of planning. There are jobs out there, especially in fast growing states like Texas. With a masters you could probably find something that can pay the bills planning related or not and transfer back into planning as the economy improves.

Finally, depending on your age, if you were born between 1970-1990, this article that I was originally responding to was insulting you as feeling entitled as well.

As someone born at the tail end of that range, I believe the article is well written and spot on. Our generation does have unrealistic expectations given the environment today. It's not all of Generation Y, but the vast majority. We expect a job to pay for our lifestyles, consisting of upgrading to the latest smartphone every couple years, driving a newish car around town, and dining with our friends at expensive restaurants. The sooner we admit that we aren't entitled to squat, with or without a degree, the better off we'll be.

Most of my classmates in my grad program were admitted directly from undergrad. They expected big jobs upon graduation. The disillusionment in my graduating class (2010) was heartbreaking. All we can do is work our asses off, getting paid for our work, and hope for the best, but are we in no means entitled to a high paying job in a field of our choosing.

On a side note, anyone going for a masters in planning for the money will probably end up disappointed. There are other degrees out there with a much better ROI. I'm not convinced that taking an unpaid internship for an extended period of time after graduation is a good idea either. More than likely it's intern abuse and the employers should know better. It might also be illegal as the Department of Labor has a strict definition of what constitutes an intern, which is often knowingly and unknowingly violated by employers. [/end rant]

[jwhitty]

You all realize that when you publicly dismiss someone wanting financial security, you are just normalizing a system of inequality. Should someone be entitled to work? Yes. Should someone be entitled to a living wage? Yes. Should we have to scrape by, hoping to become professionals in our chosen or similar career path? No.

This isn't new: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EZ5bx9AyI4

What is new is the idea of entitlement. It is a neoliberal construct used to justify elimination of previously gained rights by dividing us. Look at the trends, entitlement culture becomes a popular saying when our governing bodies decide to change our economic system. The conservative hard line is to tell someone that they don't deserve something. Telling someone that they are entitled because they haven't worked "hard" (with no conceptual definition of hard work), is bitter, individualistic, and serves no one. We are planners, it should be obvious to us that the cost of living is becoming more expensive and unsustainable, regardless of modern conveniences. Transit costs more money. Housing costs more money. Education costs more money. Healthcare costs more money. These aren't general inflationary changes. Life in the United States is becoming more and more expensive to the average individual compared to previous generations. Telling someone to shut up, eat their peas, and accept their lot in life is stupid. We do not make progress by lying down.

[Silverdude2167]

I am going to ask this to anyone who wants to reply since I am receiving so much criticism for my expectations How long after graduation did you obtain your first full time job?

I am apparently crazy for thinking that after obtaining two degrees and spending a year and a half taking any work I can get, both paid and unpaid, I should be able to obtain a full time position.

Finally, I am not sure what you all consider work outside the planning field, but my biggest issue right now is competing with people who have more professional planning experience than me. I believe that any position that strays to far out of the field will just close the door further on a job within the planning sphere.

Just to make sure people understand where i have been in the last year and a half I will provide a list of positions that I have held, and yes I have been pigeonholed because of my skill set.

DCP Intern
GIS Intern/Specialist
GIS Planner (Contract)
DCP Intern - Current
GIS Intern/Analyst - Current
GIS Analyst/Research Assistant - Current (Contract)

The use of internships in the current economy is allowing people to pay next to nothing for work that should be budgeted for full time staff employed at a much higher rate.

I hope this demonstrates that I am not just sitting around complaining about how the world is unfair.

[OfficialPlanner]

I'm having a bad day. My apologies for the rant. What I really want to say is this: life isn't always fair. We can rant and debate all day how things should be in this world, but the "I'm going to change the world attitude" doesn't always jive with reality.

My personal belief is that no one is owed a job in a field because they have a degree in that field. It takes lots of hard work, experience, and a little luck. That's still not a guarantee.

[Backstrom]

I'm having a bad day. My apologies for the rant. What I really want to say is this: life isn't always fair. We can rant and debate all day how things should be in this world, but the "I'm going to change the world attitude" doesn't always jive with reality.

My personal belief is that no one is owed a job in a field because they have a degree in that field. It takes lots of hard work, experience, and a little luck. That's still not a guarantee.

I agree. Earning a job is a privilege, not a right. Working very hard (extremely hard, in the case of many unemployed planners) is no guarantee and that is simply a reality of our field. I, too, wish that prospective employers would see the plight that I'm in (out of full-time planning work since last December) and consider those circumstances, but they don't think like that. They can't afford to. They will simply take the best, out of any stack of resume they get.

[HomerJ]

I am going to ask this to anyone who wants to reply since I am receiving so much criticism for my expectations How long after graduation did you obtain your first full time job?

Just to make sure people understand where i have been in the last year and a half I will provide a list of positions that I have held, and yes I have been pigeonholed because of my skill set.

DCP Intern
GIS Intern/Specialist
GIS Planner (Contract)
DCP Intern - Current
GIS Intern/Analyst - Current
GIS Analyst/Research Assistant - Current (Contract)

The use of internships in the current economy is allowing people to pay next to nothing for work that should be budgeted for full time staff employed at a much higher rate.

I hope this demonstrates that I am not just sitting around complaining about how the world is unfair.

It looks like you have gotten a fair amount of experience thus far. A couple questions:

-Are you interested in staying with GIS? Or are most of your GIS positions based on what has been available/your skill set?
-Do you have a masters in planning or something related?
-How have you been searching for jobs? Searching online? Networking? Are you willing to move outside of your region if you find the right planning job?


I'll admit I too get frustrated with being seen as part of a whining and complaining generation. I've made a great deal of personal sacrifices to benefit my career that I wouldn't have been forced to make in a healthy economy. But guess what? So has everyone else. You point out that you have to compete with people who have more professional experience. This is true and it's very frustrating, but many of those people were laid off, and it had nothing to do with their performance. How can you say you have it worse when that person typically has no one to fall back on, no job, and a family to take care of? The economy has hurt everyone, there isn't much value in trying to identify who has it the worst.

I personally feel lucky the crash happened while I'm in my twenties and not later on in life. I've been able to adapt and move on. It's thickened my skin, and more importantly it's taught me to manage my expectations.

EDIT: To answer the original question. One year of interning after undergrad: then I moved over 500 miles for a planning tech position. After another year of that, I landed a better job in a bigger city (had to move again about another 1,000 miles) and things have gotten considerably better since.

[Silverdude2167]

It looks like you have gotten a fair amount of experience thus far. A couple questions:

-Are you interested in staying with GIS? Or are most of your GIS positions based on what has been available/your skill set?
-Do you have a masters in planning or something related?
-How have you been searching for jobs? Searching online? Networking? Are you willing to move outside of your region if you find the right planning job?


I'll admit I too get frustrated with being seen as part of a whining and complaining generation. I've made a great deal of personal sacrifices to benefit my career that I wouldn't have been forced to make in a healthy economy. But guess what? So has everyone else. You point out that you have to compete with people who have more professional experience. This is true and it's very frustrating, but many of those people were laid off, and it had nothing to do with their performance. How can you say you have it worse when that person typically has no one to fall back on, no job, and a family to take care of? The economy has hurt everyone, there isn't much value in trying to identify who has it the worst.

I personally feel lucky the crash happened while I'm in my twenties and not later on in life. I've been able to adapt and move on. It's thickened my skin, and more importantly it's taught me to manage my expectations.

EDIT: To answer the original question. One year of interning after undergrad: then I moved over 500 miles for a planning tech position. After another year of that, I landed a better job in a bigger city (had to move again about another 1,000 miles) and things have gotten considerably better since.

Before I answer your questions, I want to make clear that I am arguing for my generation in response to the blog post and i have never said I personally have it worse than any other person.
I am very aware of the job market, and believe that personally I am in a much better situation than someone who got laid off during the crash. I have my parents to fall back on, only have to support myself and can defer my loans if needed. The situation my not be ideal in terms of the economy, but from a personal standpoint I am lucky and am aware of that.

My argument about job expectations and the affect of the economy upon my generation is looking at the larger picture and the situation we are faced with once we have graduated. I believe that is more difficult than what has been faced since prior to WWII. Again, I believe people who have been laid off during the crash are in a more difficult situation than I am, with the exception of having year(s) of work experience on their resume. But in response to people calling out my generation for being entitled and expecting to be able to obtain a position after graduation, we have been put in a more difficult position than generations that have come before us. This solely means in terms of the situation generations have faced when they graduated with their degrees, not who has it worse at the moment.

Now the questions.

-Are you interested in staying with GIS? Or are most of your GIS positions based on what has been available/your skill set?

GIS is what I am very good at, I have applied for any type of planning position that has been posted over the last year plus. Of my applications, I have received interest mainly along the lines of GIS related positions. I ideally am looking to be something along the lines of a GIS planner. I believe GIS can be a very important tool in a planners set of skills, but I am more interested in how I can assist a project with GIS rather than staring at spreadsheets all day long, having little to no control over how the data I process/results I create is applied to a project.

-Do you have a masters in planning or something related?

I have a MRP from 2012 and a BA in Geography / GIS from 2010

-How have you been searching for jobs? Searching online? Networking? Are you willing to move outside of your region if you find the right planning job?

I search for jobs how ever possible, I have a 'lead' on a position from contacts I have made while interning, the lead is a position I have been told they want me for but nothing has happened in 2 plus months so maybe it never will (I have been interviewed twice for the position over this time period). I check about 5 sites daily, and another 10 sporadically. My biggest issue and I am aware of this is where I am looking to work. I want a position between Portland ME and Washington DC. I believe that if I was willing to turn my focus westward I could obtain a planning position, but taking into account my personal situation I do not want to do that, and as someone who is lucky enough to have a safety net at the moment and enough income from part time job to support my search for full time work I have not expanded my search area.

I am aware of how lucky I am to be in my situation, and I believe lots of people have it worse than me. In an ideal world, I believe that I should be able to get a full time position within my desired search area. Some people are going to call me entitled, for expecting a job within what is probably the hardest area in the country to get one. That would probably be accurate, but I would add to that entitlement, that I am working very hard within the region and have the personal ability to survive while in pursuit of a full time position.

[HomerJ]

I want to make clear that I am arguing for my generation in response to the blog post and i have never said I personally have it worse than any other person...

Noted. No offense intended, sometimes I speak to defend my own positions more than anything else.

...GIS is what I am very good at, I have applied for any type of planning position that has been posted over the last year plus. Of my applications, I have received interest mainly along the lines of GIS related positions. I ideally am looking to be something along the lines of a GIS planner. I believe GIS can be a very important tool in a planners set of skills, but I am more interested in how I can assist a project with GIS rather than staring at spreadsheets all day long, having little to no control over how the data I process/results I create is applied to a project...

...My biggest issue and I am aware of this is where I am looking to work. I want a position between Portland ME and Washington DC. I believe that if I was willing to turn my focus westward I could obtain a planning position, but taking into account my personal situation I do not want to do that, and as someone who is lucky enough to have a safety net at the moment and enough income from part time job to support my search for full time work I have not expanded my search area...

Well I totally feel for ya, but you've identified the greatest source of frustration. I'm not particularly well versed on the east coast, but the impression is pretty consistent that it is not the easiest place to break into the planning field. I have a strong GIS background as well and, not wanting to get pigeon-holed into a GIS position, I had to be flexible on where I would work in order to do what I wanted to do.

The point is, unless you're really lucky personal sacrifice is inevitable in a down economy if you want to advance your career. If you are not flexible on where you will work, you will have to be more flexible on what type of work you will do. It's such a common theme that a planner has to move out to move up. I don't particularly like it either, but every job has it's ups and downs.

[Backstrom]

I search for jobs how ever possible, I have a 'lead' on a position from contacts I have made while interning, the lead is a position I have been told they want me for but nothing has happened in 2 plus months so maybe it never will (I have been interviewed twice for the position over this time period). I check about 5 sites daily, and another 10 sporadically. My biggest issue and I am aware of this is where I am looking to work. I want a position between Portland ME and Washington DC. I believe that if I was willing to turn my focus westward I could obtain a planning position, but taking into account my personal situation I do not want to do that, and as someone who is lucky enough to have a safety net at the moment and enough income from part time job to support my search for full time work I have not expanded my search area.

For a long time, I was restricting my search based on my personal situation as well, only looking for jobs locally. But the prevailing wisdom on the board seems to be that restricting your net geographically may be the biggest impedance to getting better prospects. You already know that.

This is something you may want to reconsider. If the personal situation is family, then talk to them and see how they feel about it. At any rate, it doesn't hurt to just look for jobs outside your current search area. Perhaps there's a position out there that would be a perfect fit for you. You'll never know unless you start looking.