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Thread: Let’s discuss Barack Obama’s Platform

  1. #1
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Let’s discuss Barack Obama’s Platform

    There seems to be some misunderstandings and misconceptions possibly on my part, possibly on the part of others regarding Obama.

    So this is your opportunity! If you support Obama, tell me why! What is this ‘Change’ he has been shouting from the rooftops for so long. What programs do you think will improve the quality of life for us (most of us are middle class I am guessing). Why should others vote for him?

    Additionally, what are your thoughts on his Health Care Program? What makes you think that it would improve the quality of peoples lives? How is all of this going to get paid for?

    What in his past decisions make you think that he will do any of what he says?

    I think that we can have an intelligent conversation without causing hurtful feelings.
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

  2. #2
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    There seems to be some misunderstandings and misconceptions possibly on my part, possibly on the part of others regarding Obama.

    So this is your opportunity! If you support Obama, tell me why! What is this ‘Change’ he has been shouting from the rooftops for so long. What programs do you think will improve the quality of life for us (most of us are middle class I am guessing). Why should others vote for him?

    Additionally, what are your thoughts on his Health Care Program? What makes you think that it would improve the quality of peoples lives? How is all of this going to get paid for?

    What in his past decisions make you think that he will do any of what he says?

    I think that we can have an intelligent conversation without causing hurtful feelings.

    you suck. That's why

    I think that as far as his past decisions and his "change" what he has shown in my opinion is that he is willing to speak more of the "truth" than other politicians. As an example I would offer the stupid gas tax holiday thing that both McCain and Clinton are proposing - but which no reputable economist thinks is a good idea. Obama has taken the approach of telling people it's a bad idea even though it looks to be politically popular to support it.

  3. #3
    Cyburbian zman's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by mskis
    I think that we can have an intelligent conversation without causing hurtful feelings.
    You smell... sorry for the hurtful feelings.

    What is he going to do about the looming Peak Oil crisis?

    You know, roving Mad Max gangs, rolling electrical blackouts, rioting and violence, resource rationing and a general mood that Americans had their "God-given right to consumption taken away"...


    Sorry, maybe I have been looking into Peak Oil too much lately. No wonder I am depressed.
    You get all squeezed up inside/Like the days were carved in stone/You get all wired up inside/And it's bad to be alone

    You can go out, you can take a ride/And when you get out on your own/You get all smoothed out inside/And it's good to be alone
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  4. #4
    Cyburbian mgk920's avatar
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    To echo michaelskis, I also want to know why I should cast a positive vote for Obama, rather than a negative vote against anyone else. And no personal attacks, please, those I just skim past and ignore.



    Mike

  5. #5
    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    Here's a tool to help discussion along so that everyone can be better informed and have the same referrant/information available.

    Link to Obama's official platform
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

  6. #6
    Cyburbian ofos's avatar
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    I suggest a return to simpler times. Here is a rating form that we can use for all the candidates.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails K%20Report%20Card_2.jpg  
    “Death comes when memories of the past exceed the vision for the future.”

  7. #7
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    I think Senator Obama's approach to healthcare is spot on in terms of providing people the option of purchasing health care at reasonable prices, rather than Senator McCain's approach of using tax-credits.

    People will be more inclined to use Obama's pay-as-you-go approach. McCain's approach may rule out many people who simply do not have the money readily available on a monthly basis to purchase health care.

    I think Senator Obama's aproach to health care will also result in better preventative health care as people will continuous access to its coverage. People will no longer have to worry about health care benefits when determining where they want to work. Think about how great that would be if you didn't have to factor that into the equation when job-hunting.

    I think a lot of it comes down to whether or not you view affordable access to health care as a fundamental human right. If you do, Obama's health care platform will get us there.

  8. #8
    Cyburbian boiker's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    I think Senator Obama's approach to healthcare is spot on in terms of providing people the option of purchasing health care at reasonable prices, rather than Senator McCain's approach of using tax-credits.

    People will be more inclined to use Obama's pay-as-you-go approach. McCain's approach may rule out many people who simply do not have the money readily available on a monthly basis to purchase health care.

    I think Senator Obama's aproach to health care will also result in better preventative health care as people will continuous access to its coverage. People will no longer have to worry about health care benefits when determining where they want to work. Think about how great that would be if you didn't have to factor that into the equation when job-hunting.

    I think a lot of it comes down to whether or not you view affordable access to health care as a fundamental human right. If you do, Obama's health care platform will get us there.
    I have no idea why I do it, but I did. I tuned into Rush only to hear him bash Massachusetts foray into universal health care. He was against it because: 1) Waits became longer 2) Doctors were booked for months 3) thousands of people who didn't previously need health coverage, suddenly needed to get ailments checked out.

    I heard his argument as: If your ailments were so bad before, why didn't you get coverage then? All you’re doing is clogging the system and preventing ME from getting MY health checkups. It was a poor argument and one made to say that providing no health coverage was better than providing any health coverage. He made is seem as if doctors hated it because now they had full schedules and an overabundance of work.

    It is quite possible that universal healthcare will create many more jobs in the health services sector. Admin, nurses, aids, and doctors will be in even more demand. The general populace WILL do preventive care because it won't cost $100 to be told to exercise more and eat less fried food. Unknown ailments will be discovered and TREATED before they become expensive and lengthy. A healthy populace is a productive populace. The terminally sick or severely handicapped cannot participate in commerce or employment to the same capacity as healthy folks or those which have treatments or aids for their handicaps.

    I support universal healthcare, I’m just unsure of in what fashion.

    I also believe that Obama’s inspirational message of change is enough for most people. They don’t care what kind of change or what level of change.. they just want something distinctly different than the last 8 years. That’s unfortunately dangerous.

    The more I listen to the candidates, the less I’m inspired by their individual plans and proposals. It may end up that I’ll vote for the candidate that will be the best collaborator and mediator. Someone who can bring all interest to the table and hammer out a fair deal…regardless of the political ideology it fits.
    Dude, I'm cheesing so hard right now.

  9. #9
    Cyburbian safege's avatar
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    It was clear from a recent "Frontline" program on PBS (Sick around the world), that the one item missing from every politicians plan is wage and price controls for health care professional, insurance, and drugs.

    I even ordered the DVD from PBS, and I never do that.
    Psychotics are consistently inconsistent. The essence of sanity is to be inconsistently inconsistent.
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    Cyburbian tsc's avatar
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    I would like to hear more about Obama... I don't find his website very detailed. I think his health care plan isn't sufficient. Of course the most likely option will be totally unexceptable to me (McCain)
    "Yeehaw!" is not a foreign policy

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  11. #11
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by boiker View post
    I have no idea why I do it, but I did. I tuned into Rush only to hear him bash Massachusetts foray into universal health care. He was against it because: 1) Waits became longer 2) Doctors were booked for months 3) thousands of people who didn't previously need health coverage, suddenly needed to get ailments checked out.

    I heard his argument as: If your ailments were so bad before, why didn't you get coverage then? All you’re doing is clogging the system and preventing ME from getting MY health checkups. It was a poor argument and one made to say that providing no health coverage was better than providing any health coverage. He made is seem as if doctors hated it because now they had full schedules and an overabundance of work.

    It is quite possible that universal healthcare will create many more jobs in the health services sector. Admin, nurses, aids, and doctors will be in even more demand. The general populace WILL do preventive care because it won't cost $100 to be told to exercise more and eat less fried food. Unknown ailments will be discovered and TREATED before they become expensive and lengthy. A healthy populace is a productive populace. The terminally sick or severely handicapped cannot participate in commerce or employment to the same capacity as healthy folks or those which have treatments or aids for their handicaps.

    I support universal healthcare, I’m just unsure of in what fashion.

    I also believe that Obama’s inspirational message of change is enough for most people. They don’t care what kind of change or what level of change.. they just want something distinctly different than the last 8 years. That’s unfortunately dangerous.

    The more I listen to the candidates, the less I’m inspired by their individual plans and proposals. It may end up that I’ll vote for the candidate that will be the best collaborator and mediator. Someone who can bring all interest to the table and hammer out a fair deal…regardless of the political ideology it fits.
    Having universal healthcare will create more jobs in the health sector? OK, but...There's already an absurdly high demand for workers in that industry. Why would we want to create even more jobs in this industry if we can't even fill the demand we currently have for health professionals. You really think people are going to want to take the stressful jobs that universal healthcare will bring. I was a pharmacy tech for a year...it's not fun. I couldn't even imagine being an aide or a nurse or a doctor and having to deal with these angry, diseased, demanding, impatient people, at a substanitally more escalated level than they currently are. Health sciences is only for those special, gifted people that are truly patient and good at dealing with people...which is not for everybody.

    In my opinion, the current system may need some tweaking but I do not think that people should be mandated to pay taxes for someone else's healthcare if they or their company can profide relatively affordable coverage OR if they don't even need or want that much coverage. Also, we only make a limited amount of money while here on this earth. Maybe my money would be better spent on living my life...taking vacations, going to ballgames, donating to philanthropic organizations, eating out, buying gifts for my family, and so forth rather than having to fork 20% of my salary over to the federal government so that we can find a psychological problem with everyone and give them expensive drugs for it, so that some dumbass smoker can get a triple bypass surgery, or so that little Johnny can go see the doctor everytime he gets the sniffles. Granted, we do need Medicare and Medicaid for the elderly and the poor, but I think regular working people need to stand up themselves and put the pressure on employers, find alternative affordable coverage providers, or be more innovative and start up their own coverage programs if they are dissatisfied. Everyday working people need to quit whining to Uncle Sam about everything and stand up and take action themselves. Since when has the federal government ever had a successful domestic program? Try never. What makes you all think it will be different this time? Take off the blinders and don't be fooled by politicians on either side. Take control of your own lives.

    I would like to hear more about Obama... I don't find his website very detailed. I think his health care plan isn't sufficient. Of course the most likely option will be totally unexceptable to me (McCain)
    I would like to too. Obama is such a politician, hiding his true detailed stances on the issues in an effort to brainwash voters.

    Moderator note:
    If you want to have a decent debate on Obama, you need to refrain from this rhetoric. It adds nothing, and detracts from the thread. (And yes, I'll say the same thing if one is started regarding McCain - Mastiff
    Last edited by Mastiff; 15 May 2008 at 3:22 PM.
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  12. #12
    Cyburbian CJC's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner View post
    In my opinion, the current system may need some tweaking but I do not think that people should be mandated to pay taxes for someone else's healthcare if they or their company can profide relatively affordable coverage OR if they don't even need or want that much coverage.
    What about the HUGE competitive disadvantage that this puts on our companies and on American products? I think we're finally going to start seeing some very large companies come out in favor of "socialized" healthcare, because the only companies that the current system helps are the "healthcare" companies and the associated industries (insurance, pharma, etc).

    I would like to too. Obama is such a politician, hiding his true detailed stances on the issues in an effort to brainwash voters.
    I can't say that I'm in love with Obama, but he gained an incredible amount of points with me when he came out against the worse-than-ridiculous gas tax holiday.
    Two wrongs don't necessarily make a right, but three lefts do.

  13. #13
    Cyburbian Plus Whose Yur Planner's avatar
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    Let me start out by saying that platforms are b.s. They are a bunch of pretty ideas strung together that are designed to appeal to the base and not set off any firestorms. They have about as much of a chance of being enacted as I do winning a figure skating competition. For those who have not seen me in real life, I'm built like an offensive lineman.

    I'll echo what was said earlier. I'm looking for someone who can both get the job done and give a little bit of hope at the same time. For me, that is Obama, tho he is not the ideal candidate. However, he has pulled together a pretty good team so far, after all he is winning. He's overcome some pretty good challenges so far and appears able to handle crisis without whinning about it. Further, he has had the character to stand against bad ideas that would be good politics i.e., the gas tax holiday.

    As for the other 2. I would have voted for McCain, circa 2000, when he actually had some character left. As for Hillary, where do I begin.... Her whole reason for being president is she feels she is owned it. Further, she'll do anything to get it. It's not about what she could or would do. This whole entitlement thing is getting old.
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  14. #14
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by CJC View post
    What about the HUGE competitive disadvantage that this puts on our companies and on American products? I think we're finally going to start seeing some very large companies come out in favor of "socialized" healthcare, because the only companies that the current system helps are the "healthcare" companies and the associated industries (insurance, pharma, etc).

    I can't say that I'm in love with Obama, but he gained an incredible amount of points with me when he came out against the worse-than-ridiculous gas tax holiday.
    OK, he took a stand against the gas tax holiday. Is that it? What does he have to offer instead? That's what I'd like to know. Obama can say he doesn't like certain ideas all he wants, but if that's the case, then I expect an alternative idea and an explanation of why it is better.

    That's all we have with Obama...hope, change, and taking stands against things. That's all well and great and everything but I'd like to know how he actually plans to fix everything.

    I'm well aware of the fact that the deficit is large, healthcare is not as great as it could be, the economy isn't doing well, and everything else. Anybody can say, "oh this sucks, but just have some hope and elect me and I'll make it all better." But please, the American people deserve an explanation of how Obama plans to "make it all better" and how he plans to get us from point A to point B.

    So, Obama...how are you going to erase the deficit?...Are you gonna raise our taxes to cover the deficit? Are you gonna expand federal programs like healthcare or are you going to let individuals and businesses take care of it so that people have more freedom of choice? Are you going to raise the minimum wage so that employers have less money to create jobs? Are you gonna end the war...if so, then what are we to do with al-Qaeda in Iraq...let them fester? How about shootings in shopping malls, city halls, and college classrooms...you going to actually allow people to arm and defend themselves in these public areas or are you going to let localities continue to violate the 2nd amendment and watch innocent people die over and over again?

    The American people deserve answers to these questions. I'm tired of all the rhetoric and sidestepping from all the candidates...particularly Obama. Yeah, yeah, we need to have the "two Americas" become "one America". It's all talk but no action.
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  15. #15
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    I think that people above make very good points. I too agree that he is very charismatic, has excellent people skills, and is able to tell people what they want to hear.

    I think that he lacks substance however. He has phenomenal ideas, health care for all, improved education, more jobs in America, and a balanced budget. Who wouldn’t want those things.

    But he is still sketchy at best on how is he going to do it. For example, the universal health care program. It is not just a I will have to wait longer, it is an everyone will have to wait longer. Currently anyone and everyone, health care or not, has the ability to go to the ER. So in reality, everyone already has health care. He says that he wants to focus on more preventative health stuff. How is he going to do that? I think it too is a great idea, but I have yet to hear anything that he has said that will make be believe that he knows how to. The thing that concerns me the most is with universal health care, is it will take the competitive edge out of research, hospitals, and ultimately the quality of care that you receive. There will be no incentives for hospitals to be the best in their fields anymore. Just look at Canada and France. Most people say that healthcare in the US is far superior to both of them. I can not think of one government run or government mandated health care program in the world that is better than our in the US.

    He additionally wants to repeal the Bush tax cuts. From the calculations that I have heard, this will cause people who on average make more than the median family income to pay almost double in taxes each year. Don’t you think that they should find ways to cut the budget instead? I find that there are too many unnecessary government programs now, and Obama will only increase the number. Some he would deem as necessary, while the vast majority of the population will be completely unaffected by them.

    He will withdraw completely from Iraq. Think about how volatile the area is now... if we leave, it will forever be run by an Terrorist government. You could see bombings in Spain, England, the US, and other ‘Western Style’ countries increase to the point that we all will live in fear.

    I talked to 7 different people who when to the Obama rally last night. The first question was did he explain his ‘change’. The responded that he is going to provide universal health care, bring the troops home, improve education, and reduce poverty. I then stated that those were terrific ideas... and asked how was he going to do that... they said that he ever said how he was going to do it. 5 of the 7 said that they just wanted to go and hear him speak and will vote for McCain in Nov.
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

  16. #16
    Cyburbian tsc's avatar
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    Money basically wins the election now...and Obama has it. His supporters are known to be young men with money to burn. He has successfully tapped into the internet community with a huge email list who send him lots of $$. Elliot Spitzer, the former Governor of NY, came in with this whole policy of change, very similar to Obama. He wasn't getting much done...because change doesn't happen because you wish or say it will. You gotta know how to work the system. If Obama spends his time trying to change the system...I don't think he will get anything done. I agree with Illinois...tell me how...I can't rest my hat on hope.

    As for healthcare...I am a firm believer in universal healthcare it shouldn't be a privilege.
    "Yeehaw!" is not a foreign policy

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  17. #17
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner View post
    What does he have to offer instead?
    I think that by saying the gas tax is ridiculous he is offering something different. I think that understanding the fundamental issue at hand is much more acceptable than saying (or possibly) doing the politically correct thing.


    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner View post
    That's all we have with Obama...hope, change, and taking stands against things. That's all well and great and everything but I'd like to know how he actually plans to fix everything.
    Hope, change, and taking a stand against things is what all politicians sell. Obama has just done a better job at it. Please don't tell me that you really believe that John McCain will "change" the White House. Sure he isn't the same person as W but his ideology has recently been moving to what W's is. Is this because McCain believes it, or is it because by doing it he is working his angles. This is politics...


    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner View post
    I'm well aware of the fact that the deficit is large, healthcare is not as great as it could be, the economy isn't doing well, and everything else. Anybody can say, "oh this sucks, but just have some hope and elect me and I'll make it all better." But please, the American people deserve an explanation of how Obama plans to "make it all better" and how he plans to get us from point A to point B.
    I don't think that Obama has said "have hope and I will make it better". He has stated how his healthcare program will help those who currently can't afford healthcare and how it will affect those of us who already do. Do I like paying taxes to the government? No. But I sure like the roads and other infrastructure they fund. If I couldn't afford healthcare, I know that I would want it. Just because I can afford it doesn't mean that I should say if you can't afford it you don't deserve it. Welfare type programs only work if everyone pays for them. I am tired of our lazy, fat, society that is dying early. Do I think universal healthcare is the right thing or perfect, no. But I do think that it might be a start.

    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner View post
    So, Obama...how are you going to erase the deficit?...Are you gonna raise our taxes to cover the deficit? Are you gonna expand federal programs like healthcare or are you going to let individuals and businesses take care of it so that people have more freedom of choice? Are you going to raise the minimum wage so that employers have less money to create jobs? Are you gonna end the war...if so, then what are we to do with al-Qaeda in Iraq...let them fester? How about shootings in shopping malls, city halls, and college classrooms...you going to actually allow people to arm and defend themselves in these public areas or are you going to let localities continue to violate the 2nd amendment and watch innocent people die over and over again?
    I think a major way to erase the deficit would be to leave Iraq. That saves us $20b a year right there. He has shown that universal healthcare will not affect the deficit many times. Minimum wage has been proven to be a good thing for the general public. Sure small businesses have been affected, but the structure of business needs to change (from the top down), not the value of workers. I think al-Qaeda in Iraq will be the same they are now. I do not truly believe that we are doing anything but building more hate towards ourselves. And finally, I think that gun control laws are doing just fine. Do we really need to allow college students have guns? I am still lost to the logic of safety if everyone has guns. So if a robber has a gun, If my friend and I have guns we are safer? What if I am a slow draw? Won't more bullet be flying that way? Australia has banned guns and it seems to me that they don't have gun related deaths. Do farmers need guns, yes. Do college students, people walking around everyday, no.

    Safety is not based on the weapons you hold, but the community you build. Seriously.

  18. #18
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    I think that one thing that we can all agree on is all three candidates, yes even Hillary, actually what to do what they believe is best for this country. The only real difference is the steps that they will take to get there.

    They all want a healthier, safer America with less poverty, better education, and better economic outlook for future generations.
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

  19. #19
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    I think that one thing that we can all agree on is all three candidates, yes even Hillary, actually what to do what they believe is best for this country. The only real difference is the steps that they will take to get there.

    They all want a healthier, safer America with less poverty, better education, and better economic outlook for future generations.
    Which is something that hopefully will unite our country next January! Hopefully
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  20. #20
    Cyburbian TexanOkie's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by safege View post
    ...the one item missing from every politicians plan is wage and price controls for health care professional, insurance, and drugs.
    When you set the price controls and wages lower than their equilibrium prices, there will be a serious shortage of services and service providers. That's a basic tenet of macro- and micro-economic theory. If you think health care is bad now, try imposing a price ceiling lower than equilibrium, market-created supply and demand equilibrium while still espousing the same market as the basis for your economy.

    Quote Originally posted by Hink_Planner View post
    Minimum wage has been proven to be a good thing for the general public. Sure small businesses have been affected, but the structure of business needs to change (from the top down), not the value of workers.
    The minimum wage, as it is currently implemented, is used more as a political tool than it is a tool to improve worker's lives. I have no fundamental problem with labor unions, but unions use minimum wage laws as bargaining chips in their contract negotiations, and are a major player in lobbying Congress for increases in the minimum wage. Increasing the minimum wage is also a (minor) contributing factor for higher rates of inflation. If politicians genuinely cared about the welfare of working families, they would index the minimum wage to inflation and take the politics out of the process.

    Quote Originally posted by Hink_Planner View post
    And finally, I think that gun control laws are doing just fine. Do we really need to allow college students have guns? I am still lost to the logic of safety if everyone has guns. So if a robber has a gun, If my friend and I have guns we are safer? What if I am a slow draw? Won't more bullet be flying that way? Australia has banned guns and it seems to me that they don't have gun related deaths. Do farmers need guns, yes. Do college students, people walking around everyday, no.

    Safety is not based on the weapons you hold, but the community you build. Seriously.
    That last statement is very true. However, as cliche as it must sound, aside from accidents, guns don't kill people. People kill people. Saying that guns contribute to violence is like saying that writing utensils contribute to misspelled words. Also, keeping guns out of the hands of certain law-abiding citizens will not keep them out of the hands of criminals. Will it make it harder for criminals to obtain them? Perhaps. Just as well as prohibition made alcohol harder to obtain for the general public.

    But, of course, safety rationalization and any other form of argument aside, most people who have an aversion to gun control laws have it because they believe it is not the government's place to mandate who needs what and who does not, and how much so. Laws are currently in place to protect the general public (murder, gun crimes, manslaughter, etc) that do not infringe on individual rights that, sadly for gun control proponents, are outlined in the Constitution. Even if you don't interpret the 2nd Amendment as granting the right for anyone to bear arms, there is still the provision in the 10th Amendment that grants powers not specifically granted in the Constitution to the federal government over to the states. The federal government can not create nor enforce gun control laws. If anything, only state governments can.

  21. #21
    Cyburbian zman's avatar
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    I think that the pool of candidates in this election year is EXACTLY what the left wants.
    As usual, there is a large output of criticism for the Democratic candidates. Of course, whenever someone challenges McCain, righties file that under, "well, we don't like his either... anyways, back to why Obama/Clinton sucks."

    Sort of a rubber/glue sort of thing, you think? We'll pile on the Dems, but you cannot down McCain, because "we don't like him".

    For me, yes it is shallow, but out of the pool of the three, I like Obama precisely because he isn't an old white man-- that's enough change for me.

    However, I was a Ron Paul guy before and will probably vote for a third party candidate come November. But I thought I would jump in right now.

    I will plug this: Think of all the money going to the Iraq/Afghan wars... that alone could be used stateside for a myriad of things and probably bring our budget back. Just sayin'. If Obama brings the troops home right now, then he has my vote (one issue voter, I guess...)
    You get all squeezed up inside/Like the days were carved in stone/You get all wired up inside/And it's bad to be alone

    You can go out, you can take a ride/And when you get out on your own/You get all smoothed out inside/And it's good to be alone
    -Peart

  22. #22
    Cyburbian CJC's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    But he is still sketchy at best on how is he going to do it. For example, the universal health care program. It is not just a I will have to wait longer, it is an everyone will have to wait longer. Currently anyone and everyone, health care or not, has the ability to go to the ER. So in reality, everyone already has health care. He says that he wants to focus on more preventative health stuff. How is he going to do that? I think it too is a great idea, but I have yet to hear anything that he has said that will make be believe that he knows how to. The thing that concerns me the most is with universal health care, is it will take the competitive edge out of research, hospitals, and ultimately the quality of care that you receive. There will be no incentives for hospitals to be the best in their fields anymore. Just look at Canada and France. Most people say that healthcare in the US is far superior to both of them. I can not think of one government run or government mandated health care program in the world that is better than our in the US.
    LOL. Maybe most people in the US might say this, but believe me - not too many people in the rest of the world are saying this. Having lived in both Spain and the Netherlands, I can tell you that healthcare here is FAR worse. Better at the top end? Maybe. But there's no reason to think that the top end would suffer from universal healthcare. In most universal healthcare systems you're completely free to pay for better or different care if you want.

    That last statement is very true. However, as cliche as it must sound, aside from accidents, guns don't kill people. People kill people.
    I don't understand this logic. Are people with guns less likely to make an accident? If not, is it not more likely that an accident involving a gun is more likely to kill someone? I don't agree with it, but I can at least see the logic of protecting gun ownership because it is a "fundamental right", but I simply cannot see the logic in disagreeing with the argument that fewer guns = fewer deaths.
    Two wrongs don't necessarily make a right, but three lefts do.

  23. #23
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by CJC View post

    I don't understand this logic. Are people with guns less likely to make an accident? If not, is it not more likely that an accident involving a gun is more likely to kill someone? I don't agree with it, but I can at least see the logic of protecting gun ownership because it is a "fundamental right", but I simply cannot see the logic in disagreeing with the argument that fewer guns = fewer deaths.
    Fewer guns does not equal fewer deaths when people break the law and continue to acquire them, build them, and use them for unlawful purposes. Also, you will also see a spike in stabbings and beatings instead.

    Also, more people die falling off ladders and in car accidents than from gun accidents. Perhaps we should take away people's ladders and cars too.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
    -Steven Tyler

  24. #24
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner View post
    OK, he took a stand against the gas tax holiday. Is that it? What does he have to offer instead? That's what I'd like to know. Obama can say he doesn't like certain ideas all he wants, but if that's the case, then I expect an alternative idea and an explanation of why it is better.

    That's all we have with Obama...hope, change, and taking stands against things. That's all well and great and everything but I'd like to know how he actually plans to fix everything.

    I'm well aware of the fact that the deficit is large, healthcare is not as great as it could be, the economy isn't doing well, and everything else. Anybody can say, "oh this sucks, but just have some hope and elect me and I'll make it all better." But please, the American people deserve an explanation of how Obama plans to "make it all better" and how he plans to get us from point A to point B.

    So, Obama...how are you going to erase the deficit?...Are you gonna raise our taxes to cover the deficit? Are you gonna expand federal programs like healthcare or are you going to let individuals and businesses take care of it so that people have more freedom of choice? Are you going to raise the minimum wage so that employers have less money to create jobs? Are you gonna end the war...if so, then what are we to do with al-Qaeda in Iraq...let them fester? How about shootings in shopping malls, city halls, and college classrooms...you going to actually allow people to arm and defend themselves in these public areas or are you going to let localities continue to violate the 2nd amendment and watch innocent people die over and over again?

    The American people deserve answers to these questions. I'm tired of all the rhetoric and sidestepping from all the candidates...particularly Obama. Yeah, yeah, we need to have the "two Americas" become "one America". It's all talk but no action.

    Here's the thing - Obama says he will work to reduce the deficit and among other things some ways he suggests doing that are attempting to institure new rules on funding for any new programs/spending put in place(Paygo), eliminating Bush's tax cuts for the wealthiest tax payers, eloiminating subsidies for oil and gas companies.

    If you really are concerned about the deficit take a look at McCain's website versus Obama's. McCain does not say anything about reducing the defecit. In fact- McCain says he will reduce taxes, and do other things that likely will increase the defecit.

  25. #25
    Cyburbian CJC's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner View post
    Also, more people die falling off ladders and in car accidents than from gun accidents. Perhaps we should take away people's ladders and cars too.
    Sounds good to me

    Really though? More people die falling off ladders than in gun-related deaths? Sounds suspect to me - I'd have to see a source for that one.
    Two wrongs don't necessarily make a right, but three lefts do.

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