Hot planning topics through the years (AIB Quintessence)

[Dan]

AID the Quintessence thread, I was thinking about Quintessential planning issues. It seems like we planners find ourselves getting wrapped up around some hot issue, and then moving on to something else. For instance, articles about dealing with gas stations were de riguer for zoning newsletters in the 1960s, but today, it's just another land use.

This is just one planer's list of quintessential hot LULU zoning topics through the years, at least in the United States:

* Late 1930s-mid-1940s: hot dog stands (Really! Check out some of the planning literature from the era. Hot dog stands, ice cream stands, and "taxpayers" - the bane of Depression-era suburbia.)
* Late 1950s: Auto dealerships, used car lots
* Early 1960s: Gas station proliferation/control
* Late 1960s: Billboards
* Late 1970s: On-premises signs: backlash against Googie and the Great Sign
* Early 1980s: Video game arcades
* Late 1980s: On-premises signs, the sequel: revenge of the portables
* Late 1990s: Wireless facilities
* Early 2000s: Big box retail, trade dress architecture
* Late 2000s: On-premises signs, the trilogy: electronic message centers

What about urban design trends? Economic development trends? Open space trends?

"Hey, remember linear parks?"
"That's sooooo 1970s. Betcha' still think playground equipment made from railroad ties is also still in, too. Maybe some exurb of Cleveland might be interested, though."
"What about pocket parks?"
"Feelgood planning for 1980s ghettos. Besides, most of them now look indistinguishable from the battered urban prairie that surrounds their sites."
"Community gardens?"
"So 1990s. You're probably still mourning the suicide of Kurt Cobain.
"Okay, how about loop lanes?"
"Early 2000s. Speaking of which, Sex and the City opens in theaters today."
"Traditional, defensible village squares completely or almost completely surrounded by street frontage?"
"Annnnnnnnnnd?"
"Dog parks?"
"There you go. And tot lots too. It's like a dog park for kids, and helicoper moms that think every man over 18 is a child molester in waiting also love 'em."
"What about Rails to Trails?"
"Timeless, if you can get it past the NIMBYs."

[Zoning Goddess]

hohoho. In the late '90's I was dealing with hot dog stands in front of every Home Depot, Toy's R Us, and Albertsons's supermarkets in the county. We put so many of those people out of business we worried if our lives were in danger.

"Linear parks"; still a term sometimes applied to trails. And yes, there are still NIMBYs; well, until they figure out how to create an (unapproved) bridge across the ditch behind their house so they can access the trail easily.

[mgk920]

Two words from the 1950s/1960s:

"Urban renewal"

'nuff said!



Anyways, my crystal ball says that for the 2010s, (market based) urban densification and expanding, upgrading, reopening and establishing new railroad corridors will be 'de riguer'.

Mike

[Bear Up North]

hohoho. In the late '90's I was dealing with hot dog stands in front of every Home Depot, Toy's R Us, and Albertsons's supermarkets in the county. We put so many of those people out of business we worried if our lives were in danger.

OK, help out a non-planner on this topic. What's so bad about hot dog stands in front of these stores? I have a product, I want to sell it, I have a market for that product. If the store has agreed to allow me on their property ("enhancing" the total buying experience) what's wrong with that?

Help me understand why street vending (or parking lot vending) is "bad". To this unencumbered-by-planning-coursework Bear these vendors exemplify a true capitalistic spirit.

Help?

Bear

[Richmond Jake]

OK, help out a non-planner on this topic. What's so bad about hot dog stands in front of these stores? I have a product, I want to sell it, I have a market for that product. If the store has agreed to allow me on their property ("enhancing" the total buying experience) what's wrong with that?

Help me understand why street vending (or parking lot vending) is "bad". To this unencumbered-by-planning-coursework Bear these vendors exemplify a true capitalistic spirit.

Help?

Bear

Let's say I own a nearby brick and mortar that also happens to offer hot dogs on the menu. I pay property taxes, insurance, business licenses, health department permits, workers comp, etc., etc., and a fly-by-night comes by with a portable hot dog stand in direct competition to me but does none of the above. Is that fair? I'm sure you could put it in context with your business.

[ofos]

Let's say I own a nearby brick and mortar that also happens to offer hot dogs on the menu. I pay property taxes, insurance, business licenses, health department permits, workers comp, etc., etc., and a fly-by-night comes by with a portable hot dog stand in direct competition to me but does none of the above. Is that fair? I'm sure you could put it in context with your business.

Opposition to street food vendors typically comes from business owners who feel threatened by competition and government agencies charged with enforcing health codes. I'm not sure that either objection is very relevant, street food vendors seem to be a normal activity in Europe and, in fact, even is some major metropolitan areas in this country. From what I've seen of conditions in brick and mortar restaurants vs street vendors, there isn't a big difference in sanitary conditions but it's a lot easier for government to monitor, fine, and tax folks who stay in one spot.

[TOFB]

I predict the next big thing will be "personal" wind generators, for home and office. How will communities react to the thought of hundreds of 50-100 foot windmills in town?

[Dan]

The opposition to hot dog stands in the 1930s and 1940s wasn't really directed at carts downtown, but rather ramshackle joints on roads leading out of town. I've seen photos in old planning publications from the era that show streets lined with hot dog stand after hot dog stand, in the way they were strips of used car lots in the 1950s and fast food restaurants in the 1980s.

Up until recently, the Buffalo area still had a lot of 1940s-era hot dog stands on the radial roads in the 'burbs, miles from downtown. They were far from pretty, but locals were passionate about them. Mention Pat's, Ja Fa Fa or Polka Dot's to anyone over 45 in Buffalo, and watch the tears well up as if you told them their dog died.

From what I remember in my childhood, it was probably more convenient to do grocery shopping in the former Soviet Union than order a meal at a suburban Buffalo hot dog stand. There was one window where you ordered a hot dog, and another where you chose the toppings, and another where you paid. For the hot dog. There was a separate window where you ordered fries, and a separate window just for paying for fries. Same thing with drinks: one to order, one to pay. And another set of windows for ice cream. Fast food it was not.

[Zoning Goddess]

OK, help out a non-planner on this topic. What's so bad about hot dog stands in front of these stores? I have a product, I want to sell it, I have a market for that product. If the store has agreed to allow me on their property ("enhancing" the total buying experience) what's wrong with that?

Help me understand why street vending (or parking lot vending) is "bad". To this unencumbered-by-planning-coursework Bear these vendors exemplify a true capitalistic spirit.

Help?

Bear

In both FL counties where I worked in zoning, hot dog stands, or any other non-permanent business, had one huge a$$ strike going against it: no sanitary facilities, no parking. Yep, zoning rules said all businesses had to provide paved handicapped parking (who can argue against this?) and bathrooms. You figure, maybe the stands on the sidewalk in front of Home Depot have the bathrooms inside the Depot, and they're probably just pulling in customers who already parked in the handicapped space, and that's reasonable. But the big retailers were generally in a Planned Unit Development, and if the applicant did not include outside/sidewalk sales in their application.... bye bye hot dog guy.

Same deal for the guys who set up boiled peanut stands, hot dog stands, etc, on vacant lots. Only they got shut down way quicker.

I have to admit, one of the most interesting ones I worked, involved a hot dog stand run by a woman on the major road in the county....she wore a thong every day. Every construction worker and businessman in the area said the county discriminated against her because of the thong. Yeah, in part; the county commissioners had sooooo many calls complaining, but they sure went by a lot to "check out the situation".

[Tom R]

In case you haven't noticed, we baby boomers are a ticking "housing for the aged' time bomb.

[mendelman]

In case you haven't noticed, we baby boomers are a ticking "housing for the aged' time bomb.

Indeed. And housing you guys will probably be a great investment/development opportunity.

[Planit]

In case you haven't noticed, we baby boomers are a ticking "housing for the aged' time bomb.

..and the overabundance of "un needed" houses

[Gedunker]

I predict the coming planning rage will be the densification of the suburbs. You can already start to see it in Tyson's Corners, VA and their efforts to redevelop by permitting much greater densities.

I agree with TOFB, too that personal wind generation and micro-generation will be issues as well.

[mgk920]

In case you haven't noticed, we baby boomers are a ticking "housing for the aged' time bomb.

Imagining the Eagles, Jimi Hendrix, REO Speedwagon, Supertramp, etc, becoming 'nursing home music'....

But then again, when I start hearing 20ishes playing ghetto (c)rap, I'll start telling them that in 40-50 years or so, their descendants will also look upon that as being nursing home music - booming through the corridors of Happy View.

Agreed, though, that will be a growth industry. I am also eagerly awaiting the coming storm, the train-wreck collision of current zoning density limits and market demands for more residential units in close-in places.

How are things working in Ontario, where, IIRC, the province prohibits its munis from regulating unit density in residential zones? Might we someday see something like that being adopted by one or more USA states?



Mike

[wahday]

I predict the coming planning rage will be the densification of the suburbs. You can already start to see it in Tyson's Corners, VA and their efforts to redevelop by permitting much greater densities.

This is my feeling, too. From establishing "town centers" to allowing additional on-site dwelling units so retirees can stay in their homes longer, we are likely to see more and more suburbs develop into places of their own (as opposed to bedrooms for a distant urban center).

In the Albuquerque area, Rio Rancho (which is its own city, but essentially serves as and is built like a suburb of albuquerque) has embarked on an ambitious project to carve out a small business district/downtown from their miles and miles of housing.