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Thread: What should be done to save our economy?

  1. #1
    Cyburbian Queen B's avatar
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    What should be done to save our economy?

    After yet another day of the dow dropping they are saying that we need to throw the kitchen sink at it to see what helps.

    An idea came to me that might work.It seems to me that they are working on the wrong end if they think throwing good money after bad will help the banks. I believe that they must put some regulations back in place. The banks as far as I am concerned can go under if they did not make good choices.

    I think they should take a large chunk of that money and sink it into Social Security. Who is getting hurt the worst in the short run. Retirement plans for those folks that have invested. By pumping up SS they can help the population that is the most dependent on the income. Then if the banks fail, the normal Joe will be covered by FDIC.

    No one seems to have the answer, I am certainly don't have a degree in economics but I think we have to look outside the box.

    So what ideas do you have? We can't do any worse than the folks we have in DC.
    It is all a matter of perspective!!!

  2. #2
    Cyburbian safege's avatar
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    1) reduce partisanship.
    2) reduce debt or excessive tribute exacted from other nations
    3) install new technology to streamline the public sector
    4) pass wage and price controls in health care
    5) cut back on military overreach
    6) promote capitalism and the government regulation of capitalism
    7) bury the bad rap on the progressive income tax
    8) promote free trade
    Psychotics are consistently inconsistent. The essence of sanity is to be inconsistently inconsistent.
    -Larry Wall

  3. #3
    Super Moderator luckless pedestrian's avatar
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    I got sent this to me today - not sure where to post it but it's a good one:

    Forrest Gump Explains Mortgage Backed Securities

    Mortgage Backed Securities are like boxes of chocolates. Criminals on Wall Street stole a few chocolates from the boxes and replaced them with turds. Their criminal buddies at Standard & Poor rated these boxes AAA Investment Grade chocolates. These boxes were then sold all over the world to investors. Eventually somebody bites into a turd and discovers the crime. Suddenly nobody trusts American chocolates anymore worldwide.

    Hank Paulson now wants the American taxpayers to buy up and hold all these boxes of turd-infested chocolates for $700 billion dollars until the market for turds returns to normal. Meanwhile, Hank's buddies, the Wall Street criminals who stole all the good chocolates are not being investigated, arrested, or indicted.

    Mama always said: "Sniff the chocolates first Forrest".

  4. #4
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    We need to start making stuff again. I don't care if it is pencils or skyscrapers, making stuff is labor intensive and provides wealth. We also need to support where we can the good made closest to your market. This will help reduce transport costs for the consumer and the provider. By buying stuff closest to you it also helps to reinforce the health of your local economies.

    The feds should ensure that free trade is also fair trade.
    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

  5. #5
    Cyburbian craines's avatar
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    I sort of agree with making stuff...but unfortunately when a widget wanker wants 30/hr to rotate a widget 25 degrees in order for said widget to be properly place in its vacumed sealed organiclly produce and ergonomic correct container......His widget now cost $300. The same widget produced in countries that have a bit more of a reality based perspective will produce that same widget for $10 cause they have got a oppressed work force................

    I think we need to start eating the elderly................
    Looking for Sanity
    In this Crazy Land Of Ours

  6. #6
    Cyburbian boiker's avatar
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    Our current economy is a consumer economy. I'm not sure this one can be saved. I think we have to bite the bullet and allow the economy and all facets of it be completely rebuilt.
    Dude, I'm cheesing so hard right now.

  7. #7
    Cyburbian MacheteJames's avatar
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    The Dow has nosedived yet again - down 400 points as of 3pm. I'm with Boiker. The economy the emerges from this crisis will not be the one that we had before we went in. It'll be a different animal. Given what's going down recently, I'm not even sure what the words socialism and capitalism mean right now.

  8. #8
    Cyburbian CJC's avatar
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    We've needed to begin changing our economy for quite some time now. Our political system will stop any meaningful change from happening though until it's too late. I predict a major war (involving some G-7 memebers and/or BRIC countries) somewhere in the world over the next twenty years - it might not involve us directly, but I think it's inevitable at this point in time.
    Two wrongs don't necessarily make a right, but three lefts do.

  9. #9
    Cyburbian TexanOkie's avatar
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    Lower government operating costs as much as feasibly viable, establish a set tax structure and not deviate from it, remove subsidies, and let the market operate as it's supposed to.

  10. #10
    Cyburbian CJC's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by TexanOkie View post
    Lower government operating costs as much as feasibly viable, establish a set tax structure and not deviate from it, remove subsidies, and let the market operate as it's supposed to.
    I'm curious to hear from a fiscal conservative what type of foreign policy, trade policy, immigration policy and monetary policy that you would impliment to make this work. I'm a big fan of things being "market-based" (markets are a great way to acheive certain goals, find true economic values of goods and services, and tap into basic human nature), but I don't think you can let the "market operate as it's supposed to" when no else is doing that (or I at least would need some convincing), unless we're talking about closing our borders to everyone and everything.
    Two wrongs don't necessarily make a right, but three lefts do.

  11. #11
    Super Moderator kjel's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by luckless pedestrian View post
    I got sent this to me today - not sure where to post it but it's a good one:

    Forrest Gump Explains Mortgage Backed Securities.....Mama always said: "Sniff the chocolates first Forrest".
    Here's a funny slide show on the foreclosure crisis. Enjoy!
    "He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me?" Jeremiah 22:16

  12. #12
    Cyburbian Veloise's avatar
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    We're overbuilt and over-retailed. It will be interesting to watch the lesser lights shrink and vanish.

    On NPR today was an interview with a guy who started cycling to work as the price of gas rose. He loves it, and said, "I don't care if the price drops back to $2/gal. I'll keep riding to work."

  13. #13
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    Cities should hire more planners! This will cause a shortage of planners and we will be paid a lot more. Planners should be driving Cadillacs just like doctors do! The more planners buying Cadillacs, the more cars Cadillac builds and the more wealth is generated.

    See? I know all the answers.
    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

  14. #14
    Cyburbian Plus Salmissra's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by kjelsadek View post
    Here's a funny slide show on the foreclosure crisis. Enjoy!
    That slideshow was great!! I was trying real hard not to bust up laughing at my desk!
    "We do not need any other Tutankhamun's tomb with all its treasures. We need context. We need understanding. We need knowledge of historical events to tie them together. We don't know much. Of course we know a lot, but it is context that's missing, not treasures." - Werner Herzog, in Archaeology, March/April 2011

  15. #15
    Cyburbian TexanOkie's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by CJC View post
    I'm curious to hear from a fiscal conservative what type of foreign policy, trade policy, immigration policy and monetary policy that you would impliment to make this work. I'm a big fan of things being "market-based" (markets are a great way to acheive certain goals, find true economic values of goods and services, and tap into basic human nature), but I don't think you can let the "market operate as it's supposed to" when no else is doing that (or I at least would need some convincing), unless we're talking about closing our borders to everyone and everything.
    Foreign policy: I actually don't have too many qualms about George W. Bush's foreign policy, with the exception of allowing pre-emptive military action. I think the way he's managed its enforcement and his personal style have done more to detract from it than the actual policies themselves.

    Trade policy: Expand free trade.

    Immigration policy: Make it (a lot) easier to come here legally (or to register legally for those already here) and step up enforcement of those coming here illegally (or who are already here and choose not to register under the new immigration policy).

    Monetary policy: A mixed Gold/Silver standard. Yes, I understand the arguments about their places in modern context. It provides stability where stability is needed. Let the market fluctuate, but don't let values fluctuate. (Low managed inflation is ok, too, but not necessarily needed, and can be virtually impossible in fiat systems).

    Tax policy: Either a flat tax or combination low-rate flat tax and low-rate national sales tax. Push for balanced budget requirement legislation (I realize this may be unrealistic, but still...).

    I know that many of these are rather simple in nature, and that a lot of people will dismiss them as not taking into account the complexities of the world in which we live, and therefore they're doomed to failure. I'd counter that sometimes, though, the simple solutions are actually the hardest to bring about because they challenge the status quo so much, and people are, ultimately, skeptical, if not fearful, of change and fearful of having direct freedom and responsibility for their own conduct and lives, whether socially (a popular view amongst Dems) or economically (a popular view amonst Reps). Why not have both? True, classical liberalism, unimpeded by modern constructs of what's "liberal" or "conservative", "right" or "left".

  16. #16
         
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    Quote Originally posted by safege View post
    1) reduce partisanship.
    2) reduce debt or excessive tribute exacted from other nations
    3) install new technology to streamline the public sector
    4) pass wage and price controls in health care
    5) cut back on military overreach
    6) promote capitalism and the government regulation of capitalism
    7) bury the bad rap on the progressive income tax
    8) promote free trade
    Is that not what has got the world in this pickle (particualrly the first bit, with a distinct lack of the second bit)?

  17. #17
    Cyburbian CJC's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by TexanOkie View post
    Foreign policy: I actually don't have too many qualms about George W. Bush's foreign policy, with the exception of allowing pre-emptive military action. I think the way he's managed its enforcement and his personal style have done more to detract from it than the actual policies themselves.

    Trade policy: Expand free trade.

    Immigration policy: Make it (a lot) easier to come here legally (or to register legally for those already here) and step up enforcement of those coming here illegally (or who are already here and choose not to register under the new immigration policy).

    Monetary policy: A mixed Gold/Silver standard. Yes, I understand the arguments about their places in modern context. It provides stability where stability is needed. Let the market fluctuate, but don't let values fluctuate. (Low managed inflation is ok, too, but not necessarily needed, and can be virtually impossible in fiat systems).

    Tax policy: Either a flat tax or combination low-rate flat tax and low-rate national sales tax. Push for balanced budget requirement legislation (I realize this may be unrealistic, but still...).

    I know that many of these are rather simple in nature, and that a lot of people will dismiss them as not taking into account the complexities of the world in which we live, and therefore they're doomed to failure. I'd counter that sometimes, though, the simple solutions are actually the hardest to bring about because they challenge the status quo so much, and people are, ultimately, skeptical, if not fearful, of change and fearful of having direct freedom and responsibility for their own conduct and lives, whether socially (a popular view amongst Dems) or economically (a popular view amonst Reps). Why not have both? True, classical liberalism, unimpeded by modern constructs of what's "liberal" or "conservative", "right" or "left".
    I guess my main questions would be:

    1. How do you deal with countries that do not share our values? Do we put free trade above our long-stated desire to spread American values (democracy, human rights, etc)?

    2. How do you deal with currency manipulation used by other countries to exploit our markets? How do we move to the gold standard with $10 trillion in outstanding debt without killing our economy or writing down the debt (and severely hurting our relations with the rest of the world)?

    3. You already mentioned eliminating subsidies, which I agree with for most items (farm products especially), but how would you do this politically? Seems impossible.
    Last edited by CJC; 16 Oct 2008 at 1:35 PM.
    Two wrongs don't necessarily make a right, but three lefts do.

  18. #18
    Cyburbian boiker's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by TexanOkie View post
    Trade policy: Expand free trade.
    I'd like to hear more from you about this. IMO, it seems that if you eliminate trade barriers, the variables affecting consumer price are energy costs and labor. Because of the enormous inequities between the richest and poorest countries and the still relatively affordable energy costs, the overall American quality of life will decline, even if the economy is strong. Free Trade implies a strong world economy. We sit near the top of the world Quality of Life because of our national economy and in part, our past trade restrictions which made is more profitable to manufacture within the country and provide working class jobs to Americans.
    Immigration policy: Make it (a lot) easier to come here legally (or to register legally for those already here) and step up enforcement of those coming here illegally (or who are already here and choose not to register under the new immigration policy).
    Being a recent AZ resident, it seems that many believe immigrants, legal or illegal, are the problem, not illegal immigrants. By making it easier for immigration to take place, the vocal minority in this state/region will explode in objection to any policy that allows those people here. It's more about xenophobia than it is about legal immigration.

    Tax policy: Either a flat tax or combination low-rate flat tax and low-rate national sales tax. Push for balanced budget requirement legislation (I realize this may be unrealistic, but still...).
    Without further researching the issues, I could support a flat-tax as long as all exemptions, credits, deductions, etc are removed from the tax code. It should take me 10 minutes and 1 page to do my taxes. The implications could be dramatically more money coming in or dramatically less.

    You're right that simple solutions probably work best. I also agree there is a blend of philosophy where 90% of the population can find agreenace. There will always be the extremeist fringes that are aboslute in their philosophy and dangerously stubbron.

    Politics is an ongoing social experiement. I've experienced the Bush experiment, I'd like to give a pure Obama experiment a try. If he's a royal F-up, I'll join the ranks to impeach him. I don't have loyalty to a party, I have preferences for certain political philosphies. My analytical side wants to experiment prior to passing judgement and thinks that the hypothosis Obama puts forward is more viable than McCain's.
    Dude, I'm cheesing so hard right now.

  19. #19
    Cyburbian safege's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by HarryFossettsHat View post
    Is that not what has got the world in this pickle (particualrly the first bit, with a distinct lack of the second bit)?
    That's why i wrote it just that way.

    Promote capitalism (not much choice), and promote regulation. We have not had the technology to regulate until recently, very recently. Most of my list has new technology front and center because politics will change by new technology. Obama seems to think that politics is run by politicians, but that is hardly ever the case.
    Psychotics are consistently inconsistent. The essence of sanity is to be inconsistently inconsistent.
    -Larry Wall

  20. #20
    Cyburbian Plus Zoning Goddess's avatar
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    Stupid as it sounds... put the a$$holes in charge on a goverment salary, considering they're getting bailed out by the government. CEO, $120 k a year. Just like a county manager. You wanna go to a "retreat"? Find a room for $40 a night. Maybe they'd get a clue. Private salaries are obscene. How any company can make a profit and pay chairpersons in the tens or hundreds of millions is beyond me.

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