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Thread: City of 1900's to 1945..

  1. #1
    Cyburbian
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    City of 1900's to 1945..

    Some cities are different in the US than other cities I mean alot of people still walk in the 1900's to 1945 but small amount where driving .So city had to be both walkable and car friendly but after WW2 less and less walkable and more car centric.

    Okay are cities built from 1900's to 1945 called Streetcar suburbs

    What is a Streetcar suburb Wikipedia..


    In a greater sense, the streetcar suburbs of the early 1900s worked well for a variety of reasons.

    While most cities grew in a piecemeal fashion, without any real plan for future development, streetcar suburbs were highly planned communities that were organized under single ownership and control. Indeed, they would often be the first such developments in their respective cities.

    Most lots in streetcar suburbs were quite small by post-World War II suburban standards, allowing for a compact and walkable neighborhood, as well as convenient access to public transport (the streetcar line).

    Most streetcar suburbs were laid out in a grid plan, although designers of these suburbs often modified the grid pattern to suit the site context with curvilinear streets. Additionally, most of these pre-automobile suburbs included alleys with a noticeable absence of front-yard driveways.

    In terms of transportation, the streetcar provided the primary means for residents to get to work, shopping, and social activities. Yet, at either end of the streetcar trip, walking remained as the primary means of getting around. As a result, even in these early suburbs, the overall city remained very pedestrian friendly. This was not always the case for other vehicles. It should be noted that, at the turn of the

    century, the bicycle was also a popular form of mobility for many urban dwellers of the era. (However, when the streetcar rail tracks were encased in the asphalt of a street the resulting trench, for the flanges of the steel wheels, created a dangerous hazard for cyclists, being big enough to trap bicycle wheels but not large enough to get out easily.)

    Because of the pedestrian-oriented nature of these communities, sidewalks were necessary in order to avoid an unacceptable and muddy walk to the streetcar on an unpaved street. Trees lining the streets were also seen as critical to a healthy and attractive neighborhood. While such developments often occurred on farmland or other cleared sites, the evidence of the street trees planted can be seen today in the large, overarching canopies found in these attractive post-turn-of-the-century communities


    What other typical 1900's to 1945 cities had?I seem to be very interested in the late 1800's to ww2 city look.

    The 40's and 50's commercial strip and 1900's to 1945 one story store-front!!

  2. #2
    Cyburbian Cardinal's avatar
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    Streetcar Suburbs is the title of a book written by Sam Bass Warner in the 1960's. It is probably one of the more important works of urban geography and planning written in 1900's, but tends to be ignored in most planning programs. Warner does an outstanding job of describing urban growth patterns from the late 1800's though the end of the streetcar era, covering both spatial aspects of expansion and describing the factors that led to the design of these areas. I would highly recommend reading it.
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  3. #3
    Cyburbian wahday's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by nec209 View post
    Okay are cities built from 1900's to 1945 called Streetcar suburbs
    As coined by Warner's book, the term "streetcar suburb" refers just to a development pattern that was common in that 1900 to 1940's era (before many households owned autos). Its not a pattern that you would have found throughout the city or one a new city would be based on. By definition, it exists in relation to an urban core. They were most common in cities expanding quickly and built on the expanding frontier of this developed urban core. Because they were farther out and people still needed get to work (work being primarily in the urban center) clustering homes near transit stops became the development strategy.

    I believe there was also an economic strategy to pay for transit from taxes levied on businesses that set up in the commercial strips along the routes. And yes, those one story, small retail spaces pushed up to the street edge are typical of this pattern all over the US. It was the pre-cursor to the strip mall which takes a similar approach, but pushes business back from the street edge to accommodate car parking (and inadvertently kills pedestrian activity and the critical mass of social activity that made these commercial areas more viable in their heyday).

    This page shows some (so-so) images of Nob Hill, a streetcar suburb in Albuquerque. It was built in the 1940s, but like many things here, this was about 20 years behind the curve for the rest of the nation (we are way out on the frontier and so streetcars did not make it here for some time. In the 1920s, they had horse drawn "trolleys" for public transit). The second to last photo shows the kind of small-scale retail spaces of the era. Today, the area has been revived into a funky, socially active and popular place: http://cybergata.com/nobhill.htm
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    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    At this very moment, I'm sitting in a coffee house across the street from this scene. This is a "taxpayer block" from the late 1920s (with extensive facade alterations since it was built), at the very end of a former streetcar line.

    Here's my old neighborhood in Denver, also located at the end of an old streetcar line. Denver is filled with classic taxpayer strips.

    Do a search for "Kenmore" (Buffalo) and "North Buffalo" (Buffalo; the pictures are about five years old, and North Buffalo has experienced some gentrification since then), "Coventry" (Cleveland Heights) or "Brookside" (Kansas City) in the Cyburbia Gallery to see typical interwar neighborhood commercial districts from the period.

    North Buffalo






    Kenmore





    Coventry







    Brookside





    Search for "Kaisertown" to see a mostly intact pre-WWI working class commercial district in Buffalo. Commercial buildings of frame construction with a front-gabled house-like form, like what's seen in Kaisertown, is quite common to blue-collar neighborhoods in Buffalo, and something that is a very "Buffalonian" sight that is unusual outside of the region. Buffalo's East Side neighborhoods never reached a point of affluence that justified the replacement of frame commercial buildings with brick mercantile-style structures, so the vast majority of commercial structures in the area take this form. Buffalo's original subdivision pattern, where most lots along major streets were narrow and deep, also factored into this form of development; it was very difficult to consolidate lots to get a resulting parcel wide enough to build a typical interwar mercantile-style structure.

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    Cyburbian wahday's avatar
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    Ah! "taxpayer block" - that's the term I was looking for.

    Dan, those are great examples. Makes me long for the industrial (now post) cities of my youth...
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    Cyburbian
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    Dan those buildings you posted look very old are they built in the 20's ??

    At this very moment, I'm sitting in a coffee house across the street from this scene. This is a "taxpayer block" from the late 1920s (with extensive facade alterations since it was built), at the very end of a former streetcar line.
    This store-front looks new all one story and no apartments above all one story store-front.LA and Miami has lots of this and Detroit too.

    This page shows some (so-so) images of Nob Hill, a streetcar suburb in Albuquerque. It was built in the 1940s, but like many things here, this was about 20 years behind the curve for the rest of the nation (we are way out on the frontier and so streetcars did not make it here for some time. In the 1920s, they had horse drawn "trolleys" for public transit). The second to last photo shows the kind of small-scale retail spaces of the era. Today, the area has been revived into a funky, socially active and popular place
    This photo

    Shops in Nob Hill District house clothing, records, herbs,
    books, neon lights and even tattoo parlors.


    This is what I talking about .I'm try to get idea cities in the US when they built store-fronts like this than the store-fronts Dan posted .

    I think these store-fronts where built in the late 1800's to 1945 but not sure or built 1900 to 1940's ..Lots of US cities have this not old but not post ww2 city look

    Other one story store-front.
    http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g1...irepics157.jpg
    http://cybergata.com/nobhill_shops.jpg

    Toronto does not have too much of this type of store-front.Most are 2 story or more store-fronts.

  7. #7
    Cyburbian
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    And yes, those one story, small retail spaces pushed up to the street edge are typical of this pattern all over the US. It was the pre-cursor to the strip mall which takes a similar approach,
    You mean the late 1800's to 1945 or 1900 to 1940's ?

    This is the store-front I'm interested in.

    http://cybergata.com/nobhill_shops.jpg


    but pushes business back from the street edge to accommodate car parking (and inadvertently kills pedestrian activity and the critical mass of social activity that made these commercial areas more viable in their heyday).
    Ya after store-fronts it was plazas and malls now power centers and big box-stores.Most cities in Canada and US like to bilt stores by big intersections or highways that look like clusters or blobs than the commercial strip in the old days..

    Note I'm having problems posting photos here may be the mod or the administrator can fix it.

  8. #8
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by nec209 View post
    This is the store-front I'm interested in.

    http://cybergata.com/nobhill_shops.jpg.
    Linky no worky. 403 error.

    For Wilshire Boulevard in LA, retail development of "Miracle Mile" started in the 1920s. The first link showed buildings that were either from the 1920s or late 1940s/early 1950s, with facade modifications. Despite LA being car-centric, Wilshire Boulevard is an entirely different beast.
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  9. #9
    Cyburbian
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    Quote Originally posted by Dan View post
    Linky no worky. 403 error.

    For Wilshire Boulevard in LA, retail development of "Miracle Mile" started in the 1920s. The first link showed buildings that were either from the 1920s or late 1940s/early 1950s, with facade modifications. Despite LA being car-centric, Wilshire Boulevard is an entirely different beast.
    Ya I believe LA like Miami was built some where very late 1800's to 1945 .LA has lots of one story store fronts ,small parking ,small plaza ,store-fronts,grided streets,back ally,small homes and apartments so on.

    Census LA
    1880 11,183
    1950 1,970,358
    2006 3,849,378

    That is 1,970,358 not old or not new.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles,_California


    Census Miami
    1900 1,681
    1950 249,276
    2007 409,719


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami

    See the small parking and compact and walkable streets,
    http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/226/img3713sl1.jpg


    More small parking and tight plazas with some store fronts on the other road.
    http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/1673/img3728dr6.jpg


    I believe this why LA and Miami has this feel.Some store-fronts have parking in the back or side.Other small parking lots and other one story store-fronts.

    So all this can be called Streetcar suburbs ?

  10. #10
    Cyburbian Cardinal's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by nec209 View post
    ...See the small parking and compact and walkable streets,
    http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/226/img3713sl1.jpg


    More small parking and tight plazas with some store fronts on the other road.
    http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/1673/img3728dr6.jpg


    I believe this why LA and Miami has this feel.Some store-fronts have parking in the back or side.Other small parking lots and other one story store-fronts.
    I am often called upon to develop strtegies for commercial districts like this. They were developed in the transitional period between a more traditional community form, and the auto-centric standards of today. Many of these places have struggled over time due to poor traffic patterns, inadequate parking, uninteresting buildings, and other issues. They do not work well for pedestrians, but they do not work well for cars either.

    Quote Originally posted by nec209 View post
    So all this can be called Streetcar suburbs ?
    I would say "no" to that question. Streetcar suburbs were those communities built along the streetcar lines extending from the city center, usually on rails laid though the center of the principal commercial arerial. The first horse-drawn streetcars were already in place by the middle of the 19th century. The commercial districts you point out were all constructed in the 1940's or later (based on the architectural styles). Cities were removing streetcar lines by this time. The test to use to determine if an area is a "Streetcar Suburb" is to ask when it was built and if there was a streetcar line serving it. I would say that the era of streetcar suburb development came to an end with the Great Depression. Anything later is something else.
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    Cyburbian
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    I am often called upon to develop strtegies for commercial districts like this. They were developed in the transitional period between a more traditional community form, and the auto-centric standards of today.
    So really there 3 types a non auto-centric city a auto-centric city after ww2.And the third a transitional between the non auto-centric city and auto-centric city .

    The small parking,small plazas ,small lot ,parking on the side or in the back ,commercial strip like hot dog stands ,diners ,used car lots ,ice cream stands ,car dealers ,gas stations ,motels ,drive-in theaters ,fast food places ,restaurants are from the 40's and 50's


    These 2 pictures from the 40's and 50's ?
    http://www.dkolb.org/sprawlingplaces....strip.pei.jpg
    http://www.westcoastroads.com/califo..._centro_10.jpg


    And the single store front are from 1900 to 1940?
    http://www.streetsandsoul.com/losang...des/la005.html
    http://www.streetsandsoul.com/edited/lae008.jpg
    http://www.streetsandsoul.com/losang...des/la027.html

    Other one other than the big tall building in the back.
    http://www.streetsandsoul.com/losang...des/la034.html

    So all 4 store fronts are from 1900 to 1940?


    The store front Dan posted are before 1900 ? The Late 1800's?


    Many of these places have struggled over time due to poor traffic patterns, inadequate parking, uninteresting buildings, and other issues. They do not work well for pedestrians, but they do not work well for cars either.
    I don't think there is one city in Canada or the US that does not have traffic problems.But has a driver I hate the small parking lots and small plazas or parking on the side or the back.It is hard to find parking.

    The power centers/big box stores in power centers ,malls or big plazas fix that problem but bad for people walking.That is why today plazas and big box stores have big parking lots.

  12. #12
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    So all 4 store fronts are from 1900 to 1940?
    1st photo (Wendy's, Ames): 1980s development under 1960s zoning.
    2nd photo (auto dealers): can't really say. WAG: early 1950s.
    3rd and 4th photos (barrio): 1920s.
    5th photos: guesstimate 1920s-1930s with subsequent facade alterations.
    6th photo (Amoeba Music, The Dome): mid-1930s to 1941; maybe very early postwar years. The art deco design is a dead giveaway.

    The store front Dan posted are before 1900 ? The Late 1800's?
    Reread the post.

    Interwar: between WWI and WWII. Generally, they were built between 1918 and 1929.
    Pre-WWI:: 1900s-early 1910s.

    The small parking,small plazas ,small lot ,parking on the side or in the back ,commercial strip like hot dog stands ,diners ,used car lots ,ice cream stands ,car dealers ,gas stations ,motels ,drive-in theaters ,fast food places ,restaurants are from the 40's and 50's
    Late 1930s to the mid-1950s, give or take. Roadside hot dog stands and diners were the NIMBYs of the day in the 1930s and 1940s; they were usually on major roads just beyond a built-up area (transitional zone between the then-suburban and rural "Sunday drive in the country" areas. They became increasingly common because of increased auto ownership -- even during the Depression -- and materials shortages during WWII that facilitated the construction of ramshackle commercial buildings.



    In some parts of the country with what foodies call "high hot dog consciousness", hot dog stands from the 1930s and 1940s still exist; suburban Buffalo (especially along Niagara Falls Boulevard) and Rochester have many examples.



    Ja-Fa-Fa was torn down a few years ago, but it's an example. The hot dog stands of old were really tacky.

    Quote Originally posted by Cardinal
    I would say "no" to that question. Streetcar suburbs were those communities built along the streetcar lines extending from the city center, usually on rails laid though the center of the principal commercial arerial. The first horse-drawn streetcars were already in place by the middle of the 19th century. The commercial districts you point out were all constructed in the 1940's or later (based on the architectural styles). Cities were removing streetcar lines by this time. The test to use to determine if an area is a "Streetcar Suburb" is to ask when it was built and if there was a streetcar line serving it. I would say that the era of streetcar suburb development came to an end with the Great Depression. Anything later is something else.
    Check out the abandoned streetcar rails in the Brookside (Kansas City) photo!

    Coventry in Cleveland Heights is a classic planned streetcar suburban commercial district; it's only a few blocks long. The buildings at the end of one block have a curved frontage; evidence of where a streetcar line made a broad turn onto another street. Brookside is also planned; the commercial district is a very tight node.

    There's no such nodular streetcar suburban areas in Buffalo, because with the exception of Parkside, large planned real estate developments were nonexistent in the area. Hertel Avenue in Buffalo (see the North Buffalo pics) is a classic streetcar suburban strip; there's a long stretch of two-story mercantile buildings along the street, following the former 23/Fillmore-Hertel streetcar line. Same thing with most neighborhood commercial centers in Buffalo; they're very linear. Even downtown Buffalo is very linear; several streetcar lines converged on Main Street as they approached downtown. Downtown Buffalo is about a mile and a half long, but in most places it's no more than four or five blocks deep. Even today, you'll see high-rise buildings on Main Street, and streets lined with single-family houses three blocks away.
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    Cyburbian jsk1983's avatar
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    [QUOTE=Dan;460741]
    In some parts of the country with what foodies call "high hot dog consciousness", hot dog stands from the 1930s and 1940s still exist; suburban Buffalo (especially along Niagara Falls Boulevard) and Rochester have many examples.



    Ja-Fa-Fa was torn down a few years ago, but it's an example. The hot dog stands of old were really tacky.



    QUOTE]

    Looking for tacky? Come to Chicago, here's one of the better known ones.

    Link: http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=super+dawg

  14. #14
    Cyburbian
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    Ja-Fa-Fa was torn down a few years ago, but it's an example. The hot dog stands of old were really tacky.
    Looking for tacky? Come to Chicago, here's one of the better known ones.

    Link: http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=super+dawg
    It is tacky because it looks old

    Reread the post.

    Interwar: between WWI and WWII. Generally, they were built between 1918 and 1929.
    Pre-WWI:: 1900s-early 1910s
    .

    So why did some cities built one story store-fronts and ohers cities store-fronts 2 story or more where people living above the store? The store-fronts I posted are one story and you posted store-fronts 2 story or more.

    Where there any one story store-fronts before 1919?

    I would say "no" to that question. Streetcar suburbs were those communities built along the streetcar lines extending from the city center, usually on rails laid though the center of the principal commercial arerial. The first horse-drawn streetcars were already in place by the middle of the 19th century. The commercial districts you point out were all constructed in the 1940's or later (based on the architectural styles). Cities were removing streetcar lines by this time
    So you saying LA and Miami are not a Streetcar suburbs ? Does there have to be a streetcar line ?


    The commercial districts you point out were all constructed in the 1940's or later (based on the architectural styles). Cities were removing streetcar lines by this time

    The thing is in the 2 photes I posted it is very compact and walkable streets and grid system I believe city planners where builting city like this from 1900 to 1950.

    After 1950 gone all anti-compact ,anti-walkable streets ,anti-grid system and sprawling and auto-centric.

    Could the area have been built up and old but some small land not use and the 40's and 50's built those small parking and tight plazas?But the streets and homes built before?

    See the small parking and compact and walkable streets,
    http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/226/img3713sl1.jpg


    More small parking and tight plazas with some store fronts on the other road.
    http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/1673/img3728dr6.jpg

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    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    The number of stories reflects the value of the land. In areas where land was more expensive, two story commercial buildings were built, so the revenue generated would more than adequately cover the expense of purchasing the land. One-story buildings were common either as "taxpayer blocks" -- their revenue would just cover the taxes and maybe provide a very small profit for the developer, but they were actually intended to be demolished and replaced with more substantial buildings in the future -- or in areas where land was inexpensive, and the revenue generated by a one-story building would generate a decent profit.

    Consider a modern suburban development in Toronto versus one in suburban Buffalo. Disregarding the underlying zoning, in a place like .. oh, Markham, Ontario, single family houses will be built at a density of eight to 12 units per acre if not higher. In Amherst, New York, it's two to four units per acre. Why? The developer needs to build denser in Markham if they're going to make a profit for the exorbitant price they paid for the land. In Amherst, where land is less expensive, a developer can make a decent profit even by building at a much lower density. There's no market pressure to change the zoning to accommodate higher densities, because developers are doing fine with 2 or 3 du/ac. In Markham, if a developer was forced to build at 3 du/ac, they'd have to build multi-million dollar homes to make a profit.

    So you saying LA and Miami are not a Streetcar suburbs ? Does there have to be a streetcar line ?
    Parts of LA and Southern California developed as streetcar suburbs. Do some research about speculation and the Pacific Electric railroad. In many cases, the streetcar companies were actually land development companies, and the streetcar line was a loss leader.
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    Cyburbian Linda_D's avatar
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    If you can find historical atlases, they will help you determine which were streetcar suburbs and which were not by showing you which areas were built up when the atlas (map) was done. The link below is to the 1894 City of Buffalo Atlas, which shows that much of North Buffalo (including Hertel Avenue in Dan's pix) was still rural areas, mostly with dirt roads.

    Histories of the city, often available at local libraries or historical societies, can help you find out when certain areas were built since it's hard to tell when buildings were built if they've had extensive renovations done over the decades. If you know about when a neighborhhod was developed, you can identify the facade changes that make it look different.

    For example, since I'm very familiar with Buffalo's history, I know that Hertel Avenue was a "street car suburb" because there was little building done north of Delaware Park until after the Pan American Exposition (1901). Between 1901 and WW I, the various neighborhoods close to Delaware Park were developed -- Parkside, Lincoln Park, North Park, etc. Hertel Avenue is north of those neighborhoods and became popular in the 1920s for families with enough money to move out of the crowded East Side neighborhoods.

    Generally speaking, the Great Depression and World War II put a damper on real estate development all over the country between about 1930 and 1945, first because people didn't have money, and then because resources couldn't be "wasted" on building houses. While you may find a few individual houses built in the late 1930s and into 1940-1941, you aren't going to find many large developments during this time.

    http://www.erie.gov/atlases/buff_94/city_atlas.html

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    Cyburbian wahday's avatar
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    Since you pegged the Nob Hill Albuquerque pattern as what you are interested in, you might look at this brief page on some history of Rte. 66: http://rt66central.com/route66/albuquerque.html

    It is important to realize that Nob Hill did not actually develop these small, one story retail spaces until just prior to the beginning of WWII. Before that, Nob Hill was mainly motor lodges and filling stations. A very diffusely developed fabric at the outskirts of town. The retail and residential elements had not come in buy the 1920s.

    In 1937, Central Avenue extended via a bridge over the Rio Grande and Rte 66 was redirected through downtown Albuquerque. This enhanced the value and viability of developing more retail along Central Avenue in Nob Hill and it eventually developed into a residential "suburb" (though we would not think of it that way today) with the kind of development shown in the picture (save for the tattoo parlors...)

    As I mentioned in my previous post, this style of development was a little late in coming to New Mexico and so reflects a style that was more common between the wars, as was mentioned. Nob Hill eeked in just before and in the early years of WWII, o we were at the end of the curve. It is interesting that this was during the rise of the auto. In fact, Nob Hill essentially filled a gap between motor lodges (catering to Rte 66 drivers) located at the eastern edge of Nob Hill/Highland and the University located to the west of Nob Hill toward downtown. It WAS built to suit motorists, but the mentality of the time was still connected to the streetcar/pedestrian model with buildings pushed to the street edge and parking behind.

    Bear in mind that these transitions from pedestrian and transit-oriented developments to car-dominated development is not an overnight development. The transitions are gradual and overlapping. Its not as if the year people start buying cars en masse you see parking lots in front of buildings crop up. The shifts take time. nob Hill is in that transition timeframe with a development style and scale more commonly associated with streetcars and pedestrian activity. It still functions in this way, interestingly. There are a few common parking areas and a very lively public culture. Soon they are installing light rail that will run from Nob Hill down to downtown Albuquerque.

    Big changes are happening now in Nob hill, though. There is a large 4 story mixed use building about to be completed that spans an entire city block and squirrels parking underneath. Many other stores have developed larger spaces, joining smaller retail spaces and in some cases adding second stories. There are also more dense residential developments coming in in adjacent areas - condos and townhomes, attached and multi-story.
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    Cyburbian
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    Hay wahday Carlisle Blvd in Albuquerque from consitution AVE to Indian School road have small stores or plazas almost at street level and very small parking lot.Was this area built the same year has Nob Hill ?

    Other than the big plaza at Carlisle Blvd and consitution AVE (south east corner) That big plaza looks from 50's or 60's .

    This is your strip Carlisle Blvd from consitution AVE to Indian School road lots of stores and plazas

    http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=...cl=1&encType=1


    The 2 malls on Carlisle Blvd North of Indian School road just south of the highway look new !! Big parking lot and pulled back.There is a K-mart and burger king ..

  19. #19
    Cyburbian
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    The number of stories reflects the value of the land. In areas where land was more expensive, two story commercial buildings were built, so the revenue generated would more than adequately cover the expense of purchasing the land. One-story buildings were common either as "taxpayer blocks" -- their revenue would just cover the taxes and maybe provide a very small profit for the developer, but they were actually intended to be demolished and replaced with more substantial buildings in the future -- or in areas where land was inexpensive, and the revenue generated by a one-story building would generate a decent profit.
    There seems to be alot of one story store-fronts in the sun belt cities made out of clay than the 2 story store-fronts made out of brick in the East coast

    The one story store-fronts in the sun belt cities look more California look or Spanish look.




    Consider a modern suburban development in Toronto versus one in suburban Buffalo. Disregarding the underlying zoning, in a place like .. oh, Markham, Ontario, single family houses will be built at a density of eight to 12 units per acre if not higher. In Amherst, New York, it's two to four units per acre. Why? The developer needs to build denser in Markham if they're going to make a profit for the exorbitant price they paid for the land.
    The 50's 60's ,70's and 80's was the suburban time in Canad you had property.The 90's they started to build very density almost the builting touching one other.The 90's was the time government had hard times with social programs and infrastructure.In 20 yaers Toronto built one highway a toll a 407 and one hospital Sure they inprove the 401,404 and 400,427 but so what.


    They have cut spending on money going to fire ,EMS,roads ,hospitals ,highways , government housing for the poor ,education and welfare for the poor so on.Toronto has no money and has big debt and so is Ontaio.Almost 30% of the pay goes to the government and every think you buy there tax.And the government is struggling with infrastructure and social programs .

    Well the Feds and Alberta have money but will not help Toronto.


    In Amherst, where land is less expensive, a developer can make a decent profit even by building at a much lower density. There's no market pressure to change the zoning to accommodate higher densities, because developers are doing fine with 2 or 3 du/ac. In Markham, if a developer was forced to build at 3 du/ac, they'd have to build multi-million dollar homes to make a profit.
    What I don't understad is why Calgary the developers built very dense the homes almost touching and all gray looking but the city builts sprawling. You would think both sprawling or both dense .

  20. #20
    Cyburbian wahday's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by nec209 View post
    Hay wahday Carlisle Blvd in Albuquerque from consitution AVE to Indian School road have small stores or plazas almost at street level and very small parking lot.Was this area built the same year has Nob Hill ?
    No. The area you are looking at is north of Lomas Blvd. and was developed in the 1950s and 60s primarily. The following is from the history section of the Nob Hill/Highland Sector Development Plan which deals with the area directly south of what you are examining (Lomas Blvd. is the northern boundary of the Plan Area). What they say I think describes the area you are looking at well, except for the fact that the years are the 1950's on, no the 1940's. I would say most of the development was during the late '50s on, though platting took place earlier. I have a friend who lives up there, too, so I kind of know the neighborhood which is a mix of styles, most likely because it built out over a longer period of time. Some areas are much more suburban-style lots typical of the 1950's - lots of modernist ranches set far back from the street edge, wide streets, curvilinear patterns, few roads within each superblock connecting with the major arterials (Indian School, Lomas). Other parts are smaller in scale (lots and houses) smaller setbacks, but still very private feeling with low-traffic, curving streets. All have prominent garages visible form the street (a big change from what you see south of Lomas).

    The area between Morningside and Washington developed in the post war boom of the late 1940s, 1950s and 1960s. The built environment has some qualities of both the pre- and post-war eras. Some blocks have small scale shop frontages close to the street while other buildings step back allowing for a shallow parking lot, while still others swim in vast seas of parking forsaking the pedestrian almost completely. Residential development also changed. Lots became wider and shallower as the orientation of houses began to change. The garage that was detached and accessed from the alley or a long driveway moved forward and became integrated into the house, accessed by a driveway from the front. Ranch style houses and modernist architecture began to appear interspersed within the established architectural vernacular. Development also began to occur in large sections with contractors building the same or similar houses on one or more blocks.
    The plan has a lot of historical info about Central Avenue in the Hob hill area. If you want to view the whole document, its here:http://www.cabq.gov/council/current-...velopment-plan

    I actually did a lot of work on this plan (writing, pics and graphics) as I was working with the private firm hired to write it at the time

    Quote Originally posted by nec209 View post
    Other than the big plaza at Carlisle Blvd and consitution AVE (south east corner) That big plaza looks from 50's or 60's.
    Its all from this same era. Some developers were focused on older patterns, others were trying newer styles. Even if one of these strips was built in 1950 and the big plaza in 1965, that's a lot of time and a changing social landscape here, so that could easily account for the differences in style.

    Quote Originally posted by nec209 View post
    The 2 malls on Carlisle Blvd North of Indian School road just south of the highway look new !! Big parking lot and pulled back.There is a K-mart and burger king ..
    The purpose of life is a life of purpose

  21. #21
    Cyburbian
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    No. The area you are looking at is north of Lomas Blvd. and was developed in the 1950s and 60s primarily.
    Some areas are much more suburban-style lots typical of the 1950's - lots of modernist ranches set far back from the street edge, wide streets, curvilinear patterns, few roads within each superblock connecting with the major arterials (Indian School, Lomas). Other parts are smaller in scale (lots and houses) smaller setbacks, but still very private feeling with low-traffic, curving streets. All have prominent garages visible form the street (a big change from what you see south of Lomas).
    The area seems to be on a grid system and modified grid system no crescent or courts.No dead-end street or cul-de-sac.Most of the area on a grid system and modified grid system and some curving streets here and there.The stores almost at the street and small parking.More street feel than suburb feel.

    This was not the case in most cities in Canada in the 60's and 70's to now .With crescents ,courts,dead-end streets ,cul-de-sac, streets that loop and lollipop streets.Big superblocks 1.6KM or 2 KM and big arterials with fence off subdivisions than houses built on the arterials .Side-walk pulled back from street and more suburb feel . And most malls and big plazas in the 60's ,70's ,80's and big box stores and power centers in the 90's .

    Photo 60's and 70's to now . ( this what it would look like in Canada )
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:S..._Shankbone.jpg

    The US seem to not gone this way in the 60's , 70's and 80's for some reason.There seems to be more priority on plazas ,commercial strips than malls,And smaller superblocks. like Brevard County , Broward County , Fort Lauderdale , Palm Beach County ,West Palm Beach and Jacksonville.

    A lot of sun belts cities seem to have different feel and look.

    This was not the case in Canada and seem to have gone suburban feel and look faster than the US cities that was slow to change and US cities did not like the malls in the 60's and 70's. in Canada.The cities in Canada seem to have built more malls than Plazas or commercial strips like in the 60's and 70's.

    Also there are 2 types of commercial strips the area I was looking at in Albuquerque more of a blend of car centric and foot traffic .

    The other commercial strips I have not talk about in this thread but bigger parking lot and more pulled back and more suburban feel.


    There really is 3 feels or look to city.

    1.Car cetric ( hostile to foot traffic )
    2.none car centric
    3 The tradition fase of both car and foot traffic.( not all the people have cars so built environment has to be for both )

    Than it just comes down to density light ,medium or high density .
    Last edited by nec209; 11 Nov 2008 at 5:09 AM.

  22. #22
    Cyburbian wahday's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by nec209 View post
    [SIZE="2"]The area seems to be on a grid system and modified grid system no crescent or courts.No dead-end street or cul-de-sac.Most of the area on a grid system and modified grid system and some curving streets here and there.The stores almost at the street and small parking.More street feel than suburb feel.
    In the area you linked to, try looking to the east and you will see many superblocks (on the half mile, if I recall correctly) which display curvilinear streets. Not so many culdesacs, but many of these curving streets connect adjacent (rather than parallel) arterials, making mobility a real pain in the tuckus. This is very typical of the 1950s and especially 60s and 70s here. as you move north and east from this subject area, it becomes more pronounced.

    http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=...cl=1&encType=1

    But as I mentioned, I don't think Albuquerque's typology is typical of the rest of the nation, especially in the years that these features developed. In general, we have been 10 to 20 years behind in trends popular in other parts of the nation. This is not so much the case now, but definitely through the 1980s. It may be because our rate of growth has been slower (changing now) which therefore makes the prospect of profiting lower (thinking like a developer here). One guess is that as development trends (a particular style of housing development, say) waned in some areas, those operations looked to places like Albuquerque to get the last gasps of profit out of that approach. I grew up in the Philadelphia area and the development patterns here are quite different from anything I experienced growing up.

    So, yes, the development patterns may reflect a more early-auto pattern even into the 1950s. Also bear in mind that some of the development you see came in later and replaced previous land use. The Smith's grocery store you can see in your link dates to the late 1980s or early 1990s even though the area was well established by then. Not sure what was there before, but on the ground its much more obvious that this has come in later (design elements of the building, the way it integrates with the buildings around it, etc.).
    The purpose of life is a life of purpose

  23. #23
    Cyburbian
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    In the area you linked to, try looking to the east and you will see many superblocks (on the half mile, if I recall correctly) which display curvilinear streets. Not so many culdesacs, but many of these curving streets connect adjacent (rather than parallel) arterials, making mobility a real pain in the tuckus. This is very typical of the 1950s and especially 60s and 70s here. as you move north and east from this subject area, it becomes more pronounced.

    http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=...cl=1&encType=1
    That area you posted look like it was bult in the 50's or 60's with crescents ,courts and dead-end streets .What you would see in Canada .Most fence off subdivisions and dead-end streets ,crescents ,courts ..Just move the map up by the school or look at area of San Francisco road and Vantura Street or Academy road and Layton AVE all crescents ,courts and dead-end streets and fence off subdivisions typical of the 60's built environment to now.

    Only difference is private feeling and low-traffic on the arterial streets and side-walk at the street difference is most 60's built environment to now is high -taffic and fast speed and lots of cars on the road.And side walk-pulled back.And 6 lane road where 3 lanes one way and 3 lanes the other.

    Where the area you posted is 2 lanes and 4 lanes than the typical 6 lanes in Canada ,speed of 70KM or 80KM.With lots traffic and lack of roads going in and out the superblocks .
    Last edited by nec209; 12 Nov 2008 at 5:49 AM.

  24. #24
    Cyburbian
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    sorry if this thread is going from simple to over complex and talking about different thinks .But all my post seem to be on built environment of city transition planning for the automobile before ,doing and after and way after.

    The built environment before ,doing and after and way after seems to be where the confusion is.And why some cities where fast or slow for the transition or the built environment of 1900 to 1960 and on.

    The post seem to be going on and on like rants not really going anywhere.I think do the confusion I'm having a hard time wording my thoughts and understanding the replies given to me.And it seems to be scaring members away.

    And becuses I understand pictures and maps better than reading text I seem to be getting lost in my posts and not really understanding the replies given to me.This is a major problem if I cannot read a book and understand it or the replies given here to me than want are my options.I seem to have rough idea of the built environment of 1900 to 1960 and on but getting confusion here and there.

    May be more visuel way of posting is better than text.And more to point style of thread than talking about different things.Like make thread on 30's and 40's and other thread on the 50's and 60's than talking about all of this in one thread.

    What the problem is I'm looking at pictures of cities and trying to understand the built environment but having hard time understanding .I cannot look at picture and say yap that part of cty built like that in 60's do to xx or yy.Do to my rough idea of the built environment of 1900 to 1960 .

    I look at

    http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=...cl=1&encType=1

    http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=...cl=1&encType=1

    http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=...cl=1&encType=1

    http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=...cl=1&encType=1

    And to me that looks like a streetcar suburb built before the 60's do to the density and very tight look Very very urban feel.

    This where the confusion is or this
    See the small parking and compact and walkable streets,
    http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/226/img3713sl1.jpg

    More small parking and tight plazas with some store fronts on the other road.
    http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/1673/img3728dr6.jpg

    If it has no street-car line why does it feel like it? Why does it feel not old but not new like car centric.? This is where the confusion is ..
    Last edited by nec209; 16 Nov 2008 at 3:46 AM.

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