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Thread: Thoughts on Manliness

  1. #51
    Cyburbian TexanOkie's avatar
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    The University of Chicago will be approving the first application for a men's advocacy group soon. The group's called "Men in Power". Naturally, the name has sparked some controversy from some other organizations, but if you look at what they want to do and accomplish, it runs pretty well with the concept of this thread.

    Story here: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...3.story?page=1

  2. #52
    Cyburbian zman's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by TexanOkie View post
    Naturally, the name has sparked some controversy from some other organizations.
    See, why is that? If a group of men get together formally under the guise of an organization, it is not automatically chauvinism; much like a group of white people getting together isn't automatically racism.

    Talk about your double standards....
    You get all squeezed up inside/Like the days were carved in stone/You get all wired up inside/And it's bad to be alone

    You can go out, you can take a ride/And when you get out on your own/You get all smoothed out inside/And it's good to be alone
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  3. #53
    Cyburbian wahday's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by otterpop View post
    And when the husband/boyfriend asks the wife/girlfriend "what do you want to do?, then she should offer an opinion. "I don't care" or "Well, what do you want to do?" doesn't hack it. Be a woman. Make a decision.

    I am a little tired of my wife doing that and then rolling her eyes or huffing through dinner because she said she didn't care and doesn't like my choice. In fact, when she does that passive-aggressive stuff, I usually pick a place I know she won't like. I only wish my town had a Hooters.
    Wahday likes this.
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  4. #54
    Cyburbian dobopoq's avatar
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    I think the word, "Manliness" has become odious. For me, it either conjures up images of violent machismo, paternalistic subjugation of women, or blind obedience to authority and denial of pain and emotion. I do find that blog mentioned by zman - "The Art of Manliness", interesting to look at sometimes. I'd prefer to deconstruct that word and simply ask what makes a man a good human being? Or maybe we should ask, aside from overlapping qualities that both men and women ought to embody, what qualities - if any, should men be expected to demonstrate that are above, beyond or different in kind from those that should be expected of women?

    I think men, are pretty much provisional human beings until they achieve some standing in the world in terms of rank, status and economics. From the day they are born, and for evermore, they are outcasts from the womb of humanity. Affection for them will always be conditional. Their worth will always be contingent upon their status. Men are expendable by default. Things do not have to be this way, rather it is simply the way they are in the current historical cultural timeframe. To be a man is to accept this as your fate. To be civilized is to accept this without resorting to committing violence against others to obtain success. For many, the perception of success is all that matters. Far too few ask whether a man's success is genuine and by noble means. Failure with moral integrity is more manly than success through treachery. To be a man is to accept that a greater proportion of your own sex will never reproduce than is the case for women.

    None of this is ever taught to boys and girls in school, because it is considered up-pc to admit these aspects of the truth about what makes a man attractive to a woman.
    Last edited by dobopoq; 05 Jun 2009 at 11:33 PM.
    "The current American way of life is founded not just on motor transportation but on the religion of the motorcar, and the sacrifices that people are prepared to make for this religion stand outside the realm of rational criticism." -Lewis Mumford

  5. #55
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by dobopoq View post
    I think the word, "Manliness" has become odious. For me, it either conjures up images of violent machismo, paternalistic subjugation of women, or blind obedience to authority and denial of pain and emotion. I do find that blog mentioned by zman - "The Art of Manliness", interesting to look at sometimes. I'd prefer to deconstruct that word and simply ask what makes a man a good human being? Or maybe we should ask, aside from overlapping qualities that both men and women ought to embody, what qualities - if any, should men be expected to demonstrate that are above, beyond or different in kind from those that should be expected of women?

    I think men, are pretty much provisional human beings until they achieve some standing in the world in terms of rank, status and economics. From the day they are born, and for evermore, they are outcasts from the womb of humanity. Affection for them will always be conditional. Their worth will always be contingent upon their status. Men are expendable by default. Things do not have to be this way, rather it is simply the way they are in the current historical cultural timeframe. To be a man is to accept this as your fate. To be civilized is to accept this without resorting to committing violence against others to obtain success. For many, the perception of success is all that matters. Far too few ask whether a man's success is genuine and by noble means. Failure with moral integrity is more manly than success through treachery. To be a man is to accept that a greater proportion of your own sex will never reproduce than is the case for women.

    None of this is ever taught to boys and girls in school, because it is considered up-pc to admit these aspects of the truth about what makes a man attractive to a woman.
    I think you're not packing much downstairs.

    Seriously dude......men and women are different and are held to different standards, just like any other animal on this planet. You try to envision a gender-neutral society.....but it just isn't a reality.
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  6. #56
    Cyburbian ofos's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    Seriously dude......men and women are different and are held to different standards, just like any other animal on this planet. You try to envision a gender-neutral society.....but it just isn't a reality.
    Or desirable. IMHO.
    “Death comes when memories of the past exceed the vision for the future.”

  7. #57
    NIMBY asshatterer Plus Richmond Jake's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    I think you're not packing much downstairs.......
    Spewing out of my nose.

  8. #58
    Cyburbian AnvilPartners's avatar
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    I think the media's had it's way with the definition of manly

    Think about how many programs there are today and in the recent past that portray the father/man as a bumbling idiot...and how much media out there portray's what a good father/man is really like...

    I'm not trying to blame it all on the media -- there are lots of factors in the mix and I also think it's healthy for us to have a laugh at ourselves, but on the whole take a look at what folks are watching...I think it's taking a toll...

    There's been some sensitivity to the media perpetuating other stereotypes -- and that backlash is there for a reason -- because media stereotyping has an impact and is offensive...

    RES
    "Sometimes you have to get medieval with it...hammer, sparks, sweat, the whole nine yards...so don't forget your asbestos suit."
    Aphorisms on Public Hearings, Planning Guild Handbook (2001).

  9. #59
    Cyburbian dobopoq's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by btrage
    I think you're not packing much downstairs.
    Let's not talk like we're in middle school - shall we?
    Quote Originally posted by btrage
    Seriously dude......men and women are different and are held to different standards, just like any other animal on this planet. You try to envision a gender-neutral society.....but it just isn't a reality.
    I agree that just as in any number of species, male and female humans evolved to specialize in certain behaviors. Humans have culture which is a repository of wisdom from the past, but sometimes norms can become maladaptive. Many of our cultural norms have a basis in biological differences, but many are purely arbitrary. It is up to each of us as individuals to decide which cultural norms we want to uphold, which to reject, and which - if any, need be created anew.

    Our dependence on fossil fuels renders much of what we would consider traditional aspects of manliness to be obsolete. Likewise, the peak of human population - which has been made possible by our exploitation of fossil fuels, renders much of traditional notions of "womanliness" to be maladaptive for the species.
    "The current American way of life is founded not just on motor transportation but on the religion of the motorcar, and the sacrifices that people are prepared to make for this religion stand outside the realm of rational criticism." -Lewis Mumford

  10. #60
    Super Moderator kjel's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by dobopoq View post
    Our dependence on fossil fuels renders much of what we would consider traditional aspects of manliness to be obsolete. Likewise, the peak of human population - which has been made possible by our exploitation of fossil fuels, renders much of traditional notions of "womanliness" to be maladaptive for the species.
    Kunstler Kool-Aid. Is it red or purple?
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  11. #61
    Cyburbian kalimotxo's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by kjelsadek View post
    Kunstler Kool-Aid. Is it red or purple?
    I don't think you can call it Kunstler Kool-Aid. It's a basic ecological fact that among any species, population growth is limited by available resources. If we keep gobbling up resources and keep making more babies that feel equally entitled to gobble things up, we will inevitably reach a breaking point. Once that happens, the system will find balance no matter how many babies we have. I'd just prefer that we take some responsibility now and show some restraint, because the other options (war and famine mostly) will take us out no matter how virile or fertile we are.
    Process and dismissal. Shelter and location. Everybody wants somewhere.

  12. #62
    Cyburbian Plus Zoning Goddess's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by dobopoq View post
    I think men, are pretty much provisional human beings until they achieve some standing in the world in terms of rank, status and economics. From the day they are born, and for evermore, they are outcasts from the womb of humanity. Affection for them will always be conditional. Their worth will always be contingent upon their status. Men are expendable by default. manly than success through treachery. To be a man is to accept that a greater proportion of your own sex will never reproduce than is the case for women.
    Unless you're royalty and have been taken for you entire net worth by a Las Vegas showgirl, I don't know where this is coming from! Most "real" men love having wives/s.o's who make a significant income. And women think the same way. We want an equal. Any woman who has half a brain (OK, some don't but same for guys) doesn't want a half-wit with a big income. God, your view is so bitter! I would never bang a guy just because he was rich/successful/"in" at the big country club, and I don't know another woman who would, either!

  13. #63
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by dobopoq View post
    Let's not talk like we're in middle school - shall we?

    I agree that just as in any number of species, male and female humans evolved to specialize in certain behaviors. Humans have culture which is a repository of wisdom from the past, but sometimes norms can become maladaptive. Many of our cultural norms have a basis in biological differences, but many are purely arbitrary. It is up to each of us as individuals to decide which cultural norms we want to uphold, which to reject, and which - if any, need be created anew.

    Our dependence on fossil fuels renders much of what we would consider traditional aspects of manliness to be obsolete. Likewise, the peak of human population - which has been made possible by our exploitation of fossil fuels, renders much of traditional notions of "womanliness" to be maladaptive for the species.
    I suppose I was a little rough on you. I apologize for my middle-school actions, but continue to believe that you have an embedded hatred for women that derives from somewhere I care not to fathom.

    I don't know where you live, but in my circle of life, I know plenty of "manly men" who have subjected themselves to being a stay-at-home dad and act as the primary caregiver in their household. Rather than being ridiculed as you would suggest, they are applauded by family and friends.

    You, my friend, have confused what the media tells us men should be like with what actually occurs in the real world with real families. This makes me wonder how many families you really, truly know. Get out in the real world where real people live and you might be surprised at what you find.
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    I don't know where you live, but in my circle of life, I know plenty of "manly men" who have subjected themselves to being a stay-at-home dad and act as the primary caregiver in their household. Rather than being ridiculed as you would suggest, they are applauded by family and friends.
    In my extended family we have a good example of a married stay-at- home dad.
    He happens to have been a Air Force pilot (Major ?) and commercial airline pilot both jobs giving him time at home while his wife climbed the corporate ladder.
    Oddball
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  15. #65
    Cyburbian Plus Zoning Goddess's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    but continue to believe that you have an embedded hatred for women that derives from somewhere I care not to fathom.
    You hit the nail on the head; this has been his theme since day 1 on Cyburbia.

  16. #66
    Cyburbian dobopoq's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Zoning Goddess
    ...I don't know where this is coming from! Most "real" men love having wives/s.o's who make a significant income. And women think the same way. We want an equal. Any woman who has half a brain (OK, some don't but same for guys) doesn't want a half-wit with a big income. God, your view is so bitter! I would never bang a guy just because he was rich/successful/"in" at the big country club, and I don't know another woman who would, either!
    I never said I don't like having an SO who makes a lot of money or more than me (mine does). But if I sound bitter to you, you're right.
    Quote Originally posted by btrage
    I suppose I was a little rough on you. I apologize for my middle-school actions, but continue to believe that you have an embedded hatred for women that derives from somewhere I care not to fathom.
    I don't hate women, I envy them. What I hate is when our culture gives differential rewards and punishments to a certain group of people, for reasons that are not biologically justifiable. As feminists do, I hate that most of the highest positions in Business and Government are still dominated by men. And I fully-support the hard-won gains of women toward alleviating some of this. But it cuts both ways. I also hate when I see women at work whose appearance evinces the fact that narcissism in women is not only tolerated but rewarded. When men by contrast, face immediate non-acceptance for deviating just slightly outside of the narrow norms of acceptable attire and grooming, that irks me. Our culture seems to think that by controlling men in their behavior (more than women) through keeping a leash about their necks, and making them look much more alike, that the aggressive and violent tendencies of men will be held in check. I believe, the reverse; because men have less freedom to express themselves on the job in passive ways, they are forced to become more aggressive to obtain the attention from the opposite sex that women are able to obtain in more peaceful means.

    To sum up, what I'm saying is that if we allowed men to get their needs for attention met through a greater freedom in passive means of self-expression, than we could enjoy a culture less oppressed by frequent outbursts of active aggression on the part of men, and its obsession with guns. As is especially the case with the military, we force men in general to groom and adorn themselves much more alike than is the case for women. The effect of this, is that it makes it easier to view men as being expendable or disposable. This expendability makes it easier for loved ones and our culture as a whole to accept when they are gunned down in war. And this is how we dress men at work, for marriage and for death. Their value as human beings is never greater than when they are memorialized posthumously for paying the ultimate price to be a hero.

    Sadly, our early 21st century global culture is still dominated by the appearance norms of Europeans who gave us WWI and WWII. The spread of the superior methods of violence of Europeans is visible today in the ubiquity of the suit and tie among the overwhelmingly male leaders of nation states. When asked what Gandhi thought of Western Civilization, he famously said, "I think it would be a good idea". Of course many of you scoff at my linking of clothing to aggression, but I believe what we wear affects how we behave. And the clothing and grooming norms for men clearly send the message that society will accept fewer deviations from the norm that it will for women. Women are better able to advertise themselves than men. Their lust for sex and power is satisfied through more passive means. When the same cannot be had for men, they will be forced to act aggressively toward others to get those needs met.
    Quote Originally posted by btrage
    I don't know where you live, but in my circle of life, I know plenty of "manly men" who have subjected themselves to being a stay-at-home dad and act as the primary caregiver in their household. Rather than being ridiculed as you would suggest, they are applauded by family and friends.
    I live in NYC. That's great that you know of examples of such acceptance for reverse role dads. I'd much rather be confined by nurturing offspring at home at leisure - among others things, than by shouldering the responsibility of being primary breadwinner at a soul-sucking office. Such role reversals have come a long way. But certainly, it has become the norm that both men and women are both earning money and giving child care, which I think is a good thing.
    Quote Originally posted by btrage
    You, my friend, have confused what the media tells us men should be like with what actually occurs in the real world with real families. This makes me wonder how many families you really, truly know. Get out in the real world where real people live and you might be surprised at what you find.
    I guess I have. I don't think I'm confused though about the differential freedom of attire that is accorded to women vs. men. I know many more families now than I used to. But you're right - I still don't know any of them that well. My social connections have been growing in leaps and bounds in the past year, but still are far from what I would call robust or even adequate. But these things take time when you move to a different place.
    "The current American way of life is founded not just on motor transportation but on the religion of the motorcar, and the sacrifices that people are prepared to make for this religion stand outside the realm of rational criticism." -Lewis Mumford

  17. #67
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Dobopoq is back!

  18. #68
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner View post
    Dobopoq is back!

    Yes, he is... let's not pile on, shall we? If someone has a different point to make, or some thing additional to add, great. We all don't agree here, but you know what opinions are like...

    Thank you. We will now return you to your regularly scheduled FAC program.
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  19. #69
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    I actually have always found his thoughts on these topics to be fascinating. I have no intention of piling on.

  20. #70
    Cyburbian Plus Zoning Goddess's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by dobopoq
    But it cuts both ways. I also hate when I see women at work whose appearance evinces the fact that narcissism in women is not only tolerated but rewarded. When men by contrast, face immediate non-acceptance for deviating just slightly outside of the narrow norms of acceptable attire and grooming, that irks me. Our culture seems to think that by controlling men in their behavior (more than women) through keeping a leash about their necks, and making them look much more alike, that the aggressive and violent tendencies of men will be held in check. I believe, the reverse; because men have less freedom to express themselves on the job in passive ways, they are forced to become more aggressive to obtain the attention from the opposite sex that women are able to obtain in more peaceful means.
    You have got to be kidding me! Women, over the last 4 decades, have been forced into a male-prescribed dress at work that is demeaning and ridiculous. My god, my dad was one of them! Men in his lawyer's office wore suits; women had to wear suits, dresses, or skirts; no pants. Men have always had a LOT more leeway in dress. How would guys feel if they had to show their legs at work every day? Just because of their gender? It's sick. Men make the rules for workplace dress, you can't possibly think that's not where it comes from. If you guys are "aggressive" it's because of your own sad insecurities. If you want to express yourself "in passive ways" then decorate your damn office with chintz and family pictures. And what do you think "narcissism" is? Wearing off-black panty-hose?
    Quote Originally posted by dobopoq
    To sum up, what I'm saying is that if we allowed men to get their needs for attention met through a greater freedom in passive means of self-expression, than we could enjoy a culture less oppressed by frequent outbursts of active aggression on the part of men, and its obsession with guns. As is especially the case with the military, we force men in general to groom and adorn themselves much more alike than is the case for women.


    Really? Go into any department store. You guys have way more clothing options than we do.. I go into the petite dept at any store and hey, I have my pick of 8 dresses and 2 suits. You guys have a gazillion suits and slacks and shirts and ties and khakis and polos, and jeans. And YOU GUYS are the ones who have dictated what we have to wear. Well, maybe except in Miami, where men wear guayaberas, which no woman would condone, and would never emulate.


    Quote Originally posted by dobopoq
    Women are better able to advertise themselves than men. Their lust for sex and power is satisfied through more passive means. When the same cannot be had for men, they will be forced to act aggressively toward others to get those needs met.
    This is sick. Just plain fricking sick. "Their lust for sex and power". You're so off base you need a mental evaluation.
    Last edited by Gedunker; 10 Jun 2009 at 8:39 AM.

  21. #71
    Super Moderator kjel's avatar
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    I think this is going down the path of no return. Thanks dobopoq
    "He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me?" Jeremiah 22:16

  22. #72
    Cyburbian zman's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by kjelsadek View post
    I think this is going down the path of no return. Thanks dobopoq
    (Thanks (all) for rousing me out of my self-imposed FAC/Cyburbia hiatus)

    Yes.

    Please people do not shit on this thread or cause it to close down. My hopes is that it will achieve a lax "neverending" status and could to be resurrected for future discussion on a myriad of topics. Please do your best to right its path.

    (Back to the shadows)
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    You can go out, you can take a ride/And when you get out on your own/You get all smoothed out inside/And it's good to be alone
    -Peart

  23. #73
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Dobopoq's posts are certainly on-topic, but maybe it would be better if the mods split them out into a new thread. I suspect that alot of what he posts are theories that he is looking for constructive opinions on. While I disagree with alot of his comments, some of his ideas about the sociological implications of fashion have some merit.

    Regarding norms of attire for example- I work in a place where I am expected to wear slacks and a button down shirt everyday, along with closed toe shoes and ankle length socks. I have been "talked to" by management when I have deviated from this. Women in my building have the luxury of wearing slacks and shoes and shirts, or dresses, or skirts and a tank top and sandals- even flip flops. However, as a man I have a little more leeway in my behavior - as in I can generally be more direct and short with people and not come across as a b_____. Men and women are held to different standards in society. Dobopoq is trying to explore the origins and implications of this. He may not be totally on target- but I think it is a valid discussion to have.

  24. #74
    Cyburbian dobopoq's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by kalimotxo View post
    I don't think you can call it Kunstler Kool-Aid. It's a basic ecological fact that among any species, population growth is limited by available resources. If we keep gobbling up resources and keep making more babies that feel equally entitled to gobble things up, we will inevitably reach a breaking point. Once that happens, the system will find balance no matter how many babies we have. I'd just prefer that we take some responsibility now and show some restraint, because the other options (war and famine mostly) will take us out no matter how virile or fertile we are.
    I am totally in agreement with what you say here. Putting aside certain undesirable associations of the word "manliness", I think what should be considered "manly" will vary from one historical time period to the next. Following the bubonic plague in 14th century Europe, warmongering took a back seat for awhile thus allowing the blossoming of the Renaissance. In Japan in 1945, being manly no longer meant being a kamikaze pilot. You were glad to be alive and you bowed your head to the Americans. Being manly today, when world population has mushroomed exponentially in the span of a human lifetime, ought to entail different behaviors. Of course this will still differ from culture to culture.
    Quote Originally posted by Maister
    the central theme that true masculinity means above all 1. SELF-SUFFICIENCY ,and 2. STRIVING FOR SOME GREATER GOAL have remained the constant defining characteristics.
    Many would say, self-sufficiency isn't enough for a man. Many would say being manly is making enough money to support dependents. Or to put it another way, you are worthless as a man if you fail to obtain a career that pays significantly more money than you yourself need to live on. Such attitudes may have softened, but I still don't see large numbers of women who are in active persuit of a man who is willing to be the primary caregiver for kids at home, the way men are willing to, so they can have a career.
    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner View post
    Dobopoq's posts are certainly on-topic, but maybe it would be better if the mods split them out into a new thread. I suspect that alot of what he posts are theories that he is looking for constructive opinions on. While I disagree with alot of his comments, some of his ideas about the sociological implications of fashion have some merit.
    ....Men and women are held to different standards in society. Dobopoq is trying to explore the origins and implications of this. He may not be totally on target- but I think it is a valid discussion to have.
    Certainly I am reaching sometimes, but I also see connections between things that others think are entirely unrelated. You throw out a bone as big to pick on as the subject of, "Manliness", and you can be sure I'll have something to say about it. Most of us have been chiming in with the sentiment that many typically feminine behaviors are now considered manly. I applaud this. I also thought it relevant to point out where expectations of manliness remain separate, different or beyond what is expected of women.

    Thanks imaplanner, for understanding where I'm coming from.
    "The current American way of life is founded not just on motor transportation but on the religion of the motorcar, and the sacrifices that people are prepared to make for this religion stand outside the realm of rational criticism." -Lewis Mumford

  25. #75
    Interesting thread here.......can't believe I took the time to read everything here


    Anyway, I (as a guy) feel like manliness is -


    * responsibility

    * providing protection and security

    * knowledge (having "book smarts", "street smarts", and just plain ol' common sense)

    * being confident enough to admit his mistakes and shortcomings, while still being confident enough to lead others

    * not being afraid to speak up when the time calls for it (however, there's a fine line between being bold and being boorish)

    * acknowledging that he does not know everything (often this ties in to a belief in a higher power, but I definitely don't want to off on a tangent there).


    If these things are not the basic definitions of manliness, then at the very least these seem to be the things that women respond to sexually and emotionally.

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