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Thread: Thoughts on Manliness

  1. #76
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by dobopoq View post
    Many would say, self-sufficiency isn't enough for a man. Many would say being manly is making enough money to support dependents. Or to put it another way, you are worthless as a man if you fail to obtain a career that pays significantly more money than you yourself need to live on. Such attitudes may have softened, but I still don't see large numbers of women who are in active persuit of a man who is willing to be the primary caregiver for kids at home, the way men are willing to, so they can have a career.
    I still think that men desire power and money because of biological reasons, as opposed to environmental or cultural reasons. Sure there will be pockets of "culture" where the men do not desire these things, but I think it holds true for the vast majority of the world's societies.
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  2. #77
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by dobopoq View post
    . Such attitudes may have softened, but I still don't see large numbers of women who are in active persuit of a man who is willing to be the primary caregiver for kids at home, the way men are willing to, so they can have a career.

    .
    I don't see large numbers of men in active pursuit of a woman who is willing to be the primary caregiver at home either. I'm not so sure that this sort of thing plays into decisions on entering into relationships anymore. In relationships where peope are lucky enough to be able to get by on one salary - deciding who will be the stay at home parent is probably based more on who makes the most money as opposed to the sex of the parent. And it's a sad truth that men still overwhelmingly make more money than women.

  3. #78
    Cyburbian Rygor's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    I still think that men desire power and money because of biological reasons, as opposed to environmental or cultural reasons. Sure there will be pockets of "culture" where the men do not desire these things, but I think it holds true for the vast majority of the world's societies.
    You are right that it is biological to some extent. Testosterone. Men have about 100 times as much as women and it has a huge effect on how we behave and what makes men men. Likewise the behavior modifying effects of estrogen and progesterone on women. Pregnant women begin producing much higher levels of progesterone and it continues for a period after their baby is born. Is causes the physical changes, lactation, food carvings, mood swings, and a strong maternal instict, as well as well as suppressing testosterone and concurrently increasing estrogen. Testosterone decreases for a man for a short time after he becomes a father. We evolved this way for survival reasons to accomodate child rearing and enhance species survival.

    As with most anything else behaviorally related, though, environment certainly does play a part, and moreso in humans than other species due to our great adaptability to our environment and hugely social nature. Humans are probably one of the few species capable of overriding natural behavioral urges and instincts because of our great mental power.

  4. #79
    Cyburbian Plus Zoning Goddess's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    I still think that men desire power and money because of biological reasons, as opposed to environmental or cultural reasons. Sure there will be pockets of "culture" where the men do not desire these things, but I think it holds true for the vast majority of the world's societies.
    You just reversed yourself in 3 sentences. It's "biological" unless another "culture" is different? WTF? So what, it's biological for Americans, but if Eskimos leave the kids home with dad, it's cultural?

    Just as this post "You are right that it is biological to some extent. Testosterone. Men have about 100 times as much as women and it has a huge effect on how we behave and what makes men men. Likewise the behavior modifying effects of estrogen and progesterone on women. Pregnant women begin producing much higher levels of progesterone and it continues for a period after their baby is born. Is causes the physical changes, lactation, food carvings, mood swings, and a strong maternal instict, as well as well as suppressing testosterone and concurrently increasing estrogen. Testosterone decreases for a man for a short time after he becomes a father. We evolved this way for survival reasons to accomodate child rearing and enhance species survival." does not apply to all women, the hormonal thing for guys is not a blanket assumption. For instance, every woman, even when pregnant, having given birth, etc. does not have a "maternal instinct", you can't assume that every man feels protective, responsible, etc. Some just want to be "in charge". And use their hormones as an excuse.

  5. #80
    Cyburbian Rygor's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Zoning Goddess View post
    You just reversed yourself in 3 sentences. It's "biological" unless another "culture" is different? WTF? So what, it's biological for Americans, but if Eskimos leave the kids home with dad, it's cultural?

    Just as this post "You are right that it is biological to some extent. Testosterone. Men have about 100 times as much as women and it has a huge effect on how we behave and what makes men men. Likewise the behavior modifying effects of estrogen and progesterone on women. Pregnant women begin producing much higher levels of progesterone and it continues for a period after their baby is born. Is causes the physical changes, lactation, food carvings, mood swings, and a strong maternal instict, as well as well as suppressing testosterone and concurrently increasing estrogen. Testosterone decreases for a man for a short time after he becomes a father. We evolved this way for survival reasons to accomodate child rearing and enhance species survival." does not apply to all women, the hormonal thing for guys is not a blanket assumption. For instance, every woman, even when pregnant, having given birth, etc. does not have a "maternal instinct", you can't assume that every man feels protective, responsible, etc. Some just want to be "in charge". And use their hormones as an excuse.
    Right, I did not say "for all" but for most it is true. The wanting to be "in charge" is partly a result of societal/cultural upbringing, but there is also a biological component. Differences are often the result of differences in environment and variance in hormone levels (there are wide ranges of "normal". Normal testosterone ranges for men are 250-1,200 ng/dl and for women are 15-70 ng/dl.). I and many others think that biological differences are an often overlooked component when people look at cultural/societal behaviors.

  6. #81
    Cyburbian Coragus's avatar
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    Here's my contribution to this thread.

    I just had a conversation with our receptionist. I was gushing (yeah, that's the word) about my new truck and how I wished we could be issued laptops so that I could find a wireless connection and work from my truck. She called me a, "typical man".

    Does that mean that I was less of a man before last Saturday when I traded my Saturn Ion in for a Ford F-150?
    Maintaining enthusiasm in the face of crushing apathy.

  7. #82
    Cyburbian zman's avatar
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    Naomi Wolf, social critic and author of many interesting books, offers an interesting look at the hard wired nature and evolution of man vs. female psyches. (For some reason, I keep finding these in Australian newspapers)

    Some snippets:

    The feminist critique, for example, has totally remade elementary-level education, where female decision-makers prevail: the construction of male hierarchies in the schoolyard is often redirected for fear of "bullying", with boys and girls alike expected to "share" and "process" their emotions. But many educators have begun to argue that such intervention in what may be a hard-wired aspect of "boy-ness" can lead to boys' academic underperformance relative to girls and to more frequent diagnoses of behavioural problems.
    Moreover, in her description of our evolution, Fisher notes that males who could tolerate long periods of silence (waiting for animals while in hunt mode) survived to pass on their genes, thus genetically selecting to prefer "space". By contrast, females survived best by bonding with others and building community, since such groups were needed to gather roots, nuts and berries while caring for small children.
    None of this means that men and women should not try to adjust to each other's wishes. But it may mean we can understand each other better and be more patient as we seek communication.
    How the male brain can't see the laundry pile up


    This was more of a post to look at male/female relationship and neurological "wiring". I felt it fitting for this thread.
    You get all squeezed up inside/Like the days were carved in stone/You get all wired up inside/And it's bad to be alone

    You can go out, you can take a ride/And when you get out on your own/You get all smoothed out inside/And it's good to be alone
    -Peart

  8. #83
    Cyburbian Linda_D's avatar
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    Here ya go -- country singer Brad Paisley explains what it means to be a "real man":

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pn3z...layer_embedded

  9. #84
    Cyburbian Plus Zoning Goddess's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Rygor View post
    Right, I did not say "for all" but for most it is true. The wanting to be "in charge" is partly a result of societal/cultural upbringing, but there is also a biological component. Differences are often the result of differences in environment and variance in hormone levels (there are wide ranges of "normal". Normal testosterone ranges for men are 250-1,200 ng/dl and for women are 15-70 ng/dl.). I and many others think that biological differences are an often overlooked component when people look at cultural/societal behaviors.
    Don't get technical. Nobody reads that! Nobody cares about hormone levels. I want to be "in charge" but that's just my personality. Hormones don't have a dog in that fight.

    Hormones are blamed for EVERYTHING. Personalities are much more telling.

    Geez, ZMan, post a couple sentences that make everyone want to take a nap. I hate that academia-speak. If it means boys can't be bullies in grade school (?) you guys gotta suck it up and let your kids beat up other kids outside of school, I guess.... can't those professors speak in English?

  10. #85
    Quote Originally posted by Coragus View post
    Here's my contribution to this thread.

    I just had a conversation with our receptionist. I was gushing (yeah, that's the word) about my new truck and how I wished we could be issued laptops so that I could find a wireless connection and work from my truck. She called me a, "typical man".

    Does that mean that I was less of a man before last Saturday when I traded my Saturn Ion in for a Ford F-150?

    Yes. Cause a real man drives a real truck, and a Ford F-150 is built FORD TUFF.

    Seriously, hasn't anybody ever noticed how much cars are tied to people's personalities? How a lot of guys can't be caught dead driving a Japanese sedan, becuase it's not MANLY enough? I remember having a manager at work who was the type of guy who always like to overassert himself and his authority and go out of his way to try to prove to everyone how "tough" and "manly" he was......by doing, among other things, purchasing a Ford F-150. We found out a couple of months later that he was secretly gay

  11. #86
    Cyburbian zman's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Zman, first post of thread
    [snip]....My father, probably the best example, is a hard working business owner, often working from sun-up to sun-down. He was a man that could seemingly fix many things around the house from the family car to the fence, to small appliances. This was accomplished often through pure gumption and pride rather than formal training. I looked at myself, realizing that I let the ceiling fan in the living room sit in its non-functioning state for 3 years before finally doing something about it....[snip]
    A quote from the opening post of this thread, and something that I have been working on ever since. This past weekend, I picked up the proper supplies and conducted a full-scale maintenance jaunt on my lawn mower. Included with this was a hand-sharpening of the lawn mower blade. It felt good and upon calling my father with a report, he stated: "We sharpen the blades here (at his landscaping business) but never by hand. I am impressed..." Needless to say, it felt good working with my hands and getting a much needed chore complete.

    During the month of June, the Art of Manliness blog is running a 30 days To a Better Man series with each day bringing about a new idea or task. Today's task was "Learn a Manual Skill" . While this has been something on my mind for a while, I have found some good points in this article. Of course, I get to share it with you.

    First, I ask, are we losing valuable manual skills as the economy and work force has been transitioned to more of a service-based sort. Hence the demise of the shop class in school:
    It appears shop class is becoming a thing of the past, as educators prepare students to become “knowledge workers.”
    While I understand that products have been getting more complex recently (especially cars), is there still value in fixing things ourselves rather than replacement? Has the over-engineering of items mademen more apathetic towards being handy?
    A decline in tool use would seem to betoken a shift in our mode of inhabiting the world: more passive and more dependent. And indeed, there are fewer occasions for the kind of spiritedness that is called forth when we take things in hand for ourselves, whether to fix them or to make them. What ordinary people once made, they buy; and what they once fixed for themselves, they replace entirely or hire an expert to repair, whose expert fix often involves installing a pre-made replacement part.
    I, for one, will continue my quest to fix items around the house. Part of a inward resolution of mine has been to learn the trade of woodworking, but by the old fashioned hand tools methods. This is due, in part, to a desire to work with my hands and slow my mind down with more manual processes as well as an ingrained hesitation towards power tools.

    So what do you say? Is there value in working with our hands or fixing things around the house? Or would we rather leave it to a professional? As a side note, tradesmen are also becoming few and far between, perhaps it is time to learn these things ourselves since it may be harder to get a professional.
    You get all squeezed up inside/Like the days were carved in stone/You get all wired up inside/And it's bad to be alone

    You can go out, you can take a ride/And when you get out on your own/You get all smoothed out inside/And it's good to be alone
    -Peart

  12. #87
    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    I admit the reason I'm bumping this old thread is mostly because I just saw the link listed at the bottom of the page under 'more on Cyburbia'.

    What an interesting thread.

    Another observation.....gender roles seem to diminish in the work place. That's certainly by design, but it's interesting how those roles sometimes change when the same people interact outside of a work environment. It can even be a little uncomfortable in some instances.
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

  13. #88
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    I miss these days. zMan, TexanOkie, dobopoq,.......and ZG arguing with everyone........can't get much better than that.

    I think the concept of manliness is now, more than ever, in the eye of the beholder.

    All women want and need different things from a man (and vice-versa), as part of being in a relationship, especially on an emotional level.
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  14. #89
    Cyburbian mike gurnee's avatar
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    F-150? Out here you buy that for your daughter. A real man has an F-350, and one fellow know (of diminuitive stature) has a 550. BTW, yesterday started the season against Bambi.

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