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Poll results: How are things going?

Voters
40. You may not vote on this poll
  • Great, things have never been better

    4 10.00%
  • Moving quickly where we need to be and will arrive soon

    4 10.00%
  • Not where we need to be, but going the right direction

    21 52.50%
  • Not bad, but not good (No change)

    3 7.50%
  • Moving, but in the wrong direction

    1 2.50%
  • Rapidly getting worse

    4 10.00%
  • The USA is screwed

    3 7.50%
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Thread: Almost half way in the first 100 days, how are they doing?

  1. #1
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Almost half way in the first 100 days, how are they doing?

    So we are just about halfway done with the first 100 days and I was wondering how you feel the Federal Government is doing?

    Neither part right now has any clout in my book right now. Both of them are hell bent on increasing the size of government and making sure that they get re-elected. As for the comment that the GOP only looks to the past in another thread, President Obama wants to bring back the new deal and follow in the steps of Lincoln. Perhaps it would be better if he got out of the way and let capitalism run its course. While the GOP did not vote in favor of the 'spending bill' they did little to stop it. Sometimes you need to step in front of the tank to keep it from destroying a village.

    I love how the Government wants banks to start lending and people to start borrowing money again. Umm, excuse me but I thought that was the major thing that caused this whole mess in the first place. A congressman from Texas said that Americans need to get on the Dave Ramsey plan. That is like a fat kid telling people that they need to eat healty, while waving a Krispy Kreme in one hand and a bucket of KFC in the other. Perhaps the federal government should live on common sense, you know, spend less than you make. But lets keep track of what they make and how they make it. That would be our taxes.

    How much did you pay in taxes last year? Don’t just look at your W2 statements. Think about sale tax, hotel tax, gas tax, phone tax, and all the other taxes that are behind the price of most of what we buy.

    Obama campaigned on Hope and Change and it seems like the more that he does, the worse off the economy gets. Look more into the stimulus bill, I (and many others) find state tax cuts, but temporary federal money to cover it. It would be like you selling your car because your neighbor promised to drive you to work for the week…. Ummm yea, great, but what happens next week?

    The DOW is at lows not seen since 1997, investor confidence is at an all time low, foreclosures continue to increase, and people continue to loose jobs. Obama touted that the CEO of Caterpillar said that he would hire people if a responsible stimulus bill was pass. Well Obama’s bill was passed and they have not hired any new people. Maybe because the stimulus bill was not responsible and maybe because it has done nothing but hurt the economy.

    Furthermore, everything that the democrats seem to control goes to complete waste and now they want to control healthcare. Do you want your inner city hospitals operated the way many inner city schools are operated. Were all the money goes to the state and then gets distributed to the hospitals based on the popularity of the representative in office? Some of the best hospitals in the country are in areas that have the worst school systems.

    The new tax system (as proposed currently) would eliminate church and charitable tax deductions if you make more than $250,000. A recent economic review found that charities, non-profits, and similar agencies receive more than 90% of their annual fundraising contributions from those making more than $250,000, many of whom only do it for the tax write-off. Now who is going to be more hurt by this provision in the tax change… those making $250,000 or those charities and non-profits that depend on those contributions.

    Overall, I can not think of one good thing that the Federal Government has done in the past 44+ days, and from what I see, it will not change.

    How do you think the first 50 days have gone.
    Invest in the things today, that provide the returns tomorrow.

  2. #2
    Cyburbian CJC's avatar
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    No problems from me. Obama is basically doing exactly what he campaigned on and won a large victory on. It's a slow process, I expect that major changes to healthcare and the budget will come over the next year, both of which are long needed, but it's hard to turn a ship on a dime. There are a couple things I would've liked to play out a little bit differently (larger stimulus, no tax break stuff in the stimulus, different tactics on dealing with the banks), but I understand his bipartisan desires and needs to reach out to the other side so that things are easier later on. Foreign policy will be the thing I look at closely over the next year, but I like what I see so far.
    Two wrongs don't necessarily make a right, but three lefts do.

  3. #3
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    Obama's 100 Days will be judged years from now. Not half-way into it. So I'm not going to even vote. I'm happy that major bills have either been signed into law or are in the works. We'll just have to wait and see. Patience people, patience.
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  4. #4
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by CJC View post
    Obama is basically doing exactly what he campaigned on and won a large victory on.
    53% to 46% is a large victory?
    (66,882,230 to 58,343,671 votes)
    Invest in the things today, that provide the returns tomorrow.

  5. #5
    Cyburbian
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    1. The US did not really enter into the Great Depression until 1931-1932 and some historians might say as late as 1933. I am hinting that things might get far worse very soon.
    2. Pearl Harbor, not FDR, helped pull us out of the Depression.
    3. It's hard for me to be crictical of the current administration when the opposition hasn't had a good track record lately either. The GOP's major accomplishment in this administration is to create a giant unwavering phalanx of opposition to the Stimulus Bill. Have they come up with an alternative? No. Just a bunch of whiny complaints about the money won't help anything. Rather than work through the problem and find ways of improving the economy, many, but not all, of the GOP is looking towards 2010 in the hopes that they can pin the president. It is just bipartisan politics all over again.

    The GOP chides the administration for wasteful spending. How many trillions of dollars have we wasted on two wars with no exit strategy, which are longer than any conflict since the Revolutionary War? Even if the stimulus money is not successful at pulling us out of the mess we created, at least we will have tangiblle accomplishments, which is more to say than the wasted war money under the previous administration.
    "This is great, honey. What's the crunchy stuff?"
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  6. #6
    Cyburbian Queen B's avatar
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    I think the president has given the command to turn the ship we are still slowing the engines so that movement can occur.

    AS far are reform in the health system, I have every confidence in Sebilus to do just that. I do not ever remember a governor that actually got things moving like her. AS far as my job goes, she has moved GIS along in this state at lightening speed. I will just bet that she will use the same process to move health care. I will bet that I can think of one person that will go with her but I won't say who just yet.
    It is all a matter of perspective!!!

  7. #7
    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    53% to 46% is a large victory?
    (66,882,230 to 58,343,671 votes)
    Yeah, as Presidential elections go that's a pretty big win. Not a landslide thumping like a Reagan in 1984, Roosevelt in 1936 or Harding in 1920 but in the upper third of victories, nonetheless.

    http://2008election.procon.org/viewr...esourceID=1565

  8. #8
    Cyburbian Raf's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    I love how the Government wants banks to start lending and people to start borrowing money again. Umm, excuse me but I thought that was the major thing that caused this whole mess in the first place.
    Umm yes and no. If you listen to this American Life on NPR this past weekend, they pretty much explained the whole credit crisis and how banks pretty much have not enough assets to cover their liabilities. The dreaded "N" word is being thrown around has the possible cure and with the fed doing a "stress test" on the worst banks to see how that can all play out. In essence, credit is the key to all as company use credit for purchases and payrolls, and consumers use credit for everything else. Fixing the credit market to fix the economy.


    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    Perhaps the federal government should live on common sense, you know, spend less than you make. But lets keep track of what they make and how they make it. That would be our taxes.
    This got thrown out the window when we left the gold standard. Simple Macro economics dude. States are required to do this, the federal government is not. If we spent what we took in large infrastructure projects, even to military contracts couldn't be done. Plus we will be killing a large financial market know as the bond market, which seems to be the safe haven for investors. As my mother always said, think before you speak.

    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    How much did you pay in taxes last year? Don’t just look at your W2 statements. Think about sale tax, hotel tax, gas tax, phone tax, and all the other taxes that are behind the price of most of what we buy.
    And think about what these taxes get for us. Fire, police services, road improvement projects. Remember, for land of great wealth, we pay some of the lowest taxes on earth, yet we also have crumbling infrastructure, terrible police and fire ratio services, etc. Get what you pay for bother.

    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    Obama campaigned on Hope and Change and it seems like the more that he does, the worse off the economy gets. Look more into the stimulus bill, I (and many others) find state tax cuts, but temporary federal money to cover it. It would be like you selling your car because your neighbor promised to drive you to work for the week…. Ummm yea, great, but what happens next week?
    The economy is like a guy when he goes to the bar looking for chicks. One good days he scores a bunch a numbers and maybe even gets lucky and goes home with one. On a bad day, well, he strikes out and doesn't want to come back for a while. It takes time for his confidence to come back. The economy has no confidence because it doesn't know where the bottom is. Period. Again, strike something up to prob up the credit market, and confidence will come back. This turn around will not be over night. It will take years. It is hard to say what's next because we are in uncharted history right now. As some economist put it, don't compare these times to the great depression, but rather the bank panics of the 1870's to begin to find out how things may unravel.

    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    The DOW is at lows not seen since 1997, investor confidence is at an all time low, foreclosures continue to increase, and people continue to loose jobs. Obama touted that the CEO of Caterpillar said that he would hire people if a responsible stimulus bill was pass. Well Obama’s bill was passed and they have not hired any new people. Maybe because the stimulus bill was not responsible and maybe because it has done nothing but hurt the economy.
    Really? You base our economic outlook on the dow? I would give you the S&P 500 or even the Wilsher Index, but the dow? It only trades the largest 30 or so stocks and we base our economy on that? You know how the feds work. Slow. Give it some time, this isn't an overnight, yay we got money! The feds need to allocate it to states or through grants. Yes, the stimulus bill could have been written better, but it is what it is, and something imo is better than nothing but this is just the first of many stimulus bills on its way, and they are not the cure all, and lest we forget the rebate checks from W. took shape in the form of a slight bounce in Q2/Q3 of last year, now Q1 when it was originally passed.

    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    Furthermore, everything that the democrats seem to control goes to complete waste and now they want to control healthcare. Do you want your inner city hospitals operated the way many inner city schools are operated. Were all the money goes to the state and then gets distributed to the hospitals based on the popularity of the representative in office? Some of the best hospitals in the country are in areas that have the worst school systems.
    Are there facts here or is this just an informed rant?

    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    The new tax system (as proposed currently) would eliminate church and charitable tax deductions if you make more than $250,000. A recent economic review found that charities, non-profits, and similar agencies receive more than 90% of their annual fundraising contributions from those making more than $250,000, many of whom only do it for the tax write-off. Now who is going to be more hurt by this provision in the tax change… those making $250,000 or those charities and non-profits that depend on those contributions.
    Fact or rant?

    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    Overall, I can not think of one good thing that the Federal Government has done in the past 44+ days, and from what I see, it will not change.
    Look, i am young. I know this. I think it is hard to judge a president on just 100 days. Clinton didn't shine until groundbreaking welfare reform which wasn't done till sometime in 2004/2005 if i remember correctly. Bush had a pretty lame 100 days (and i don't count no child left behind) and really didn't get the mojo following until 9/11. But i mean look what he has done so far:

    Stimulus Bill which gives some money back to your pockets, extended unempolyment, more money for pell grants, which are all great things.
    Aid to homeowners to stem foreclosure
    Re-evaluated California's EPA exemption for green house gas initiatives
    Opened up talks with Sryia
    Opening up files from the Bush years that should have been public
    Iraq exit strategy now in place
    Changes to federal contracting

    and most of all, trying to give the american people "strait talk" and at the same time be a cheerleader. Sometimes, confidence can be a good thing, and that my friend cannot be measure by bill signed or enacted by congress or the president.
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  9. #9
    Cyburbian CJC's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    53% to 46% is a large victory?
    (66,882,230 to 58,343,671 votes)
    Yes.

    Also, consider the amount of D seats that were picked up too. A 7% margin of victory plus a huge gain in both the Senate and House amounts to an enormous victory and mandate.
    Two wrongs don't necessarily make a right, but three lefts do.

  10. #10
    Cyburbian wahday's avatar
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    Personally, I think the administration is doing a fine job with a horrifying mess. I think anyone who expects everything to turn around in 50 days is living in a fantasy world. I also think it is naive for folks to think that what is happening in the stock market, with lending, etc. has very much to do with what has happened in the last month and a half. The scenarios that are playing out now are the result of decisions, schemes, scams and irresponsible dealings that took place over the last decade or so. They are not going to be undone in such a short time.

    I also feel that there is a renewed sense of transparency with this government. I don't perceive back door dealings, or secret meetings by energy giants to establish a national energy policy or anything like that. They are pretty much doing what they have said they would do and that's fine by me.

    Would I prefer we weren't bailing out the banks, the automakers and otherwise supporting institutions and corporations that are in this mess due to their own decisions? Of course, but the realities that were handed to this administration are neither pretty nor desirable. I think they are doing just fine, all things considered...
    The purpose of life is a life of purpose

  11. #11
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    I know its Hip to criticize the Federal Government and the sheep like talk..... big govenment bad.... big government bad..... taxes to high... bla bla bla. ... We have the lowest taxes in the industrialied world.
    I think, for the most part, the Federal Gov does a pretty good job. I think Federal Employees are very dedicated to what they do. I have worked for the National Park Service and I was in Iraq (see Planning Mag May 08) everybody I met was very dedicated to the mission. BOTH Civilian and Military

  12. #12
    Cyburbian boiker's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    So we are just about halfway done with the first 100 days and I was wondering how you feel the Federal Government is doing?
    Obama is still finding his place but his rhetoric is strikingly similar in content, although much more eloquently stated, that has been delivered to us for the last eight years. I'm disappointed at the divisiveness in congress. Ds and Rs alike are fighting ideological battles over trivial issues. I feel that much of what Obama has not been able to accomplish has been caused by Pelosi rather than just the obstructionists in the Republican Party.

    Perhaps it would be better if he got out of the way and let capitalism run its course.
    This is much bigger statement that you make it out to be. We have over 80 years of US history which has encouraged and supported an economy mixed with regulation and free market/capitalist principals. Through the course of those years, government money has been frequently used to instigate growth, prevent decline, support sectors and act as stop-gap measures. The government money has taken many forms; tax cuts, tax hikes, trade tariffs, tax credits, grants, loans, incentives, patent prizes, fractional currency. The current actions of the government are not any different that what has taken place through the previous decades of growth and decline—it has only taken a different form.

    To achieve what I assume you want the government should not spend any public money on any private business and solely let the natural creation, savings, and application of capital take place. To do this, we need to resort to a minimal government role, a commodity based currency, and extreme privatization of nearly all public investment. To deride the spending and claim that it will do nothing but additional decline is to assume that capitalism has a natural tendency to pursue ventures which are high risk and suspect to failure. Truth be known, much of the innovation and risk taking that has taken place in private industry would not have been possible without the government interventions mentioned above. Capitalism will generally seek out low-risk, modest return investments over the formerly mentioned when government intervention is absent.


    I love how the Government wants banks to start lending and people to start borrowing money again. Umm, excuse me but I thought that was the major thing that caused this whole mess in the first place.
    I agree. However, the last 80+ years of economic thought has been highly based upon Keynesian economic models which depend on debased, fractional currency and free-flowing credit/consumption. This won’t change until the system has sufficiently destroyed itself. We aren’t there yet and the aftermath will be ugly.

    Look more into the stimulus bill, I (and many others) find state tax cuts, but temporary federal money to cover it.
    Where does the stimulus bill mandate states to lower taxes? I couldn’t find it. My state is proposing to RAISE taxes in spite of the federal funds.


    Maybe because the stimulus bill was not responsible and maybe because it has done nothing but hurt the economy.
    I’m interested to know how the bill directly hurt the economy more than not enacting the bill would have. Let’s have a discussion on this.

    Furthermore, everything that the democrats seem to control goes to complete waste and now they want to control healthcare.
    Explain “everything” “seem” and “complete waste.” Is this conjectured opinion or based on fact or experience? I don’t want to play the R vs. D game, but I want to understand why you call out Democrats specifically.

    The new tax system (as proposed currently) would eliminate church and charitable tax deductions if you make more than $250,000. A recent economic review found that charities, non-profits, and similar agencies receive more than 90% of their annual fundraising contributions from those making more than $250,000, many of whom only do it for the tax write-off. Now who is going to be more hurt by this provision in the tax change… those making $250,000 or those charities and non-profits that depend on those contributions.
    If this is the case, that credit needs to be retained. Is there a link to the applicable section of the stimulus?

    Overall, I can not think of one good thing that the Federal Government has done in the past 44+ days, and from what I see, it will not change.
    I think the focus on green technology development is positive. The reiteration of the action plan for Iraq and Afghanistan is reassuring to me and probably Republicans—He won’t abandon Iraq and is generally sticking to Bush’s former plan. I like the adjustments to the tax brackets. Compared to the rest of the developed world, our tax rates are still a relative bargain for the individual (not sure as much for corporations). I like his initial 4-5 weeks of effort trying to bridge the political divide. I was pissed at Pelosi and other Democratic leader working in conflict of Obama.
    Dude, I'm cheesing so hard right now.

  13. #13
    Super Moderator kjel's avatar
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    It took years for the situation we are in to occur and it will take years to get out of it. I am of the opinion that this whole debacle was perpetrated by the Republicrat party. For me there is very little differentiation between the two parties when it comes to spending. Politico go to Washington to bring home the bacon to their districts and states, that is their job whether we like it or not.

    The comment was made to let capitalism run its course. I think it is in the manner in which it is correcting itself with markets down, the credit market seized up, banks billions of dollars in debt, foreclosures up. It's a folly to think that we can have an ever expanding economy, that every player within it will operate in equitable and ethical manner, and that there should be no oversight.

    What is the answer? Honestly I don't know. I think it is a very complex set of answers and it will take a long time to implement them.
    "He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me?" Jeremiah 22:16

  14. #14
    Cyburbian ofos's avatar
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    No vote here until the next election. Everything good comes from the current regime, everything bad came from the previous one. Was it ever thus?
    “Death comes when memories of the past exceed the vision for the future.”

  15. #15
    Cyburbian Plus Zoning Goddess's avatar
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    Obama needs to cut the pork.

    The First Lady's official portrait is great!

    I think it's really too soon to say much about what the president has accomplished. Most public employees have a 3 to 6 month probationary period, and they aren't even in marginal positions of responsibility. Give the guy a break!

  16. #16
    Cyburbian safege's avatar
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    I like compromise legislation so:

    Moving quickly where we need to be and will arrive soon
    Psychotics are consistently inconsistent. The essence of sanity is to be inconsistently inconsistent.
    -Larry Wall

  17. #17
    I think Obama has done a fantastic job. His actions are why I voted for him. I worry a lot about the economy, but realistically, its going to take a year or more for things to get better. But the programs passed now are going to be the ones that get us out of a recession. For those who think this is a time to reduce spending, take a marcro economics course and read John Kenneth Galbraith's history of the Great Depression. Discuss.

    The Republican alternative: cut taxes for rich people, cut regulation on business. Didn't Bush do that? Dead on arrival.

  18. #18
    Cyburbian Plus Whose Yur Planner's avatar
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    How about it's way to soon to tell. The people who are calling Obama's first 40+ days in office a failure are the are the ones with a vested interest in making sure it fails.

    I am concerned about the amount of debt we are piling up. However, there seemed to be little political alternatives to the stimulus bill. BTW it's only pork when it goes to somelses district. Allowing the markets to correct themselves was a political nonstarter.

    As for allowing capitalism to work unfettered, it doesn't work. Unfettered capitalism relies on public goods and services that are not figured in. These public services are provided by the government(s). Further laise faire capitalism, even when tried in a limited fashion, has not worked. It always seems to lead to monopolies, which are anti competition, and anti-capitalistic. Finally, if you want to government out, then the corporations must swear off all the ways government benefits them. The provision of goods and services, tariffs, subidies, etc.

    One needs only to look are our own county's history to see how the hands off approach has failed; child labor, monopilies, pollution, etc. It was the excesses of the late 1800's that forced the government to play a bigger role in the economy, mainly through regulation. Government gets involved because it has to, because of these types of failures and inequalities.
    When did I go from Luke Skywalker to Obi-Wan Kenobi?

  19. #19
    Cyburbian mgk920's avatar
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    And when the job-creating class has its assets wiped out by massively increased taxation, who will be left to hire workers and sign paychecks?

    And for those who think that heavy federal spending affected the Great Depression, a growing consensus is finding that without FDR's 'alphabet soup' intervention, the crisis would have likely been less severe and ended much sooner than it did. As it was, on the eve of WWII in 1941, unemployment rates had barely budged from what they were in 1933 while the federal debt had BALLOONED. Only the demands of the War ended the Great Depression.

    Also, for those advocating what BHO is doing and his proposed $1.8T deficit for this year, what if the Feds hold a treasury bond auction and nobody shows up? One can take *ALL* of the job-creating class' assets away through taxation and it wouldn't cover even half of that shortfall. Can you say "flat rate confiscatory tax on all cash-based assets, regardless of one's income or total accumulated wealth (AKA: inflation)"?







    Mike

  20. #20
    Cyburbian CJC's avatar
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    Pretty much every complaint on here so far has been a basic ideological difference that existed before the election and was and is unlikely to change regardless of how long Obama is in office.

    Here's the question to those who feel Obama is spending too much (this makes me chuckle a bit after the Bush years, but whatever) - do you really think that McCain would have done nothing? He would have just said, "Nope, this is the time for fiscal discipline. Balanced budget this year. Oh, unemployment's up? The whole world is mired in a bank panic not seen in 80 years? No worries, the market's got that. The vast majority of people in the country expect the government to do something? Nope, I refuse. They'll be plenty happy in five years when this sorts itself out."
    Two wrongs don't necessarily make a right, but three lefts do.

  21. #21
    Cyburbian Coragus's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    53% to 46% is a large victory?
    (66,882,230 to 58,343,671 votes)

    Certainly a larger victory that W in 2000 when he actually lost the popular vote.

    Just saying.

    As to the thread, I'm not really a fan of bailouts, but generally, I think the nation is turning toward the right direction.
    Back home just in time for hockey season!

  22. #22
    Cyburbian Random Traffic Guy's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by New World Planner View post
    We have the lowest taxes in the industrialied world.
    Quote Originally posted by CPSURaf View post
    Remember, for land of great wealth, we pay some of the lowest taxes on earth, yet we also have crumbling infrastructure, terrible police and fire ratio services, etc. Get what you pay for bother.
    "You're only a slave for 1/3 of the year, what are you complaining about? Those guys next door are much worse off."


    I think there are a number of dominoes still to fall (option A, commercial loans, illegal immigration, health care taxes, carbon taxes), and given the response from both parties ("both wings of the same bird of prey" to quote Pat Buchanan), I'm not too optimistic. Bashing of the taxpaying class and especially the upper echelons of it is already causing a question "why exactly am I working this hard anyways" vibe that will only get stronger. There's no mistake that the only two sectors of the economy doing great are gun/ammo sales and book sales of Atlas Shrugged (really!).

    Get out of debt, plant a garden, buy some precious metals (gold/silver/lead), get together with your neighbors to weather the storm.

  23. #23
    Cyburbian rcgplanner's avatar
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    First of all it is way too early to judge the first 100 days, but I will say President Obama has gotten a lot accomplished in the last 6 weeks. I am more dissapointed in the GOP who has done very little in the last 6 weeks, except posturing for the 2010 election. I have heard a lot of diagreement from the GOP, but very little in solutions.

    We have tried tax cuts for the last 8 years with very little evidence that they work. We have tried a 'hands-off' free market approach and learned that the wolves can't be trusted to watch the henhouse. What other solutions does the GOP have?

  24. #24
    Cyburbian boiker's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by mgk920 View post
    And when the job-creating class has its assets wiped out by massively increased taxation, who will be left to hire workers and sign paychecks?
    I completely agree if you are referring to corporate/company taxes. How does raising individual taxes destroy opportunity for companies to hire new employees. Do you think that the tax credits obama proposes for employer paid health insurance premiums and for hiring additional workers could work to create jobs? What do you consider massive increases in taxation?

    And for those who think that heavy federal spending affected the Great Depression, a growing consensus is finding that without FDR's 'alphabet soup' intervention, the crisis would have likely been less severe and ended much sooner than it did. As it was, on the eve of WWII in 1941, unemployment rates had barely budged from what they were in 1933 while the federal debt had BALLOONED.
    From what random sources I've read, FDR did not like the level of government support he was providing to keep the economy from cratering further. Through 1933-1937 the economy was growing, albiet at a slow clip. In '37, the WPA was significantly trimmed back and the stock market experienced another fall similar to '31. He promptly resotred the WPA in '38 and the market responded via slow recovery.

    Only the demands of the War ended the Great Depression.
    Who paid for the war? Was it government spending that invigorated private industry? Perhaps there were private armies fighting the war and no government money was involved. You say government spending does nothing but hurt economies than in the next breath say that government spending helps economies.

    Also, for those advocating what BHO is doing and his proposed $1.8T deficit for this year, what if the Feds hold a treasury bond auction and nobody shows up? One can take *ALL* of the job-creating class' assets away through taxation and it wouldn't cover even half of that shortfall. Can you say "flat rate confiscatory tax on all cash-based assets, regardless of one's income or total accumulated wealth (AKA: inflation)"?
    Would you like him to balance the budget? Be prepared for a significant cut-back in military spending, infrastructure spending, local police fire support, education, and what little market regulation we still have. I don't agree with a 1.8T deficit because it just reminds me of the wreckless spending of the last 8 years. I don't get how spending more money solves a problem created by spending too much money-- private money and public.

    Mike, I want to take your complaints seriously. Help this liberal understand how your philosophy will fix the economy and government. If I'm spouting talking points too, call me on them. I want to avoid the rhetoric and pursue scientific/logic based solutions to our ills rather than ideological solutions.
    Dude, I'm cheesing so hard right now.

  25. #25
    Cyburbian Brocktoon's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by mgk920 View post
    And when the job-creating class has its assets wiped out by massively increased taxation, who will be left to hire workers and sign paychecks?
    This is such a straw argument it is hardly worth responding to...at return of the top bracket to 39%,which was the rate during the largest boom period of the century the 1990's hardly retarded investment. In Fact this period say a record amount of investment in equipment and workers. There were plenty of people able to sign checks and with the tax code as its structured once you subtract credits for investment and other incentives the effective tax rate is less than half of that. Look at the top marginal tax rates during the boom from 1982 to 1986 the top tax rate was 50% yet money was being made at an unrepresented rate.

    And for those who think that heavy federal spending affected the Great Depression, a growing consensus is finding that without FDR's 'alphabet soup' intervention, the crisis would have likely been less severe and ended much sooner than it did. As it was, on the eve of WWII in 1941, unemployment rates had barely budged from what they were in 1933 while the federal debt had BALLOONED. Only the demands of the War ended the Great Depression.
    You need to check you "facts" again. There is little consensus on this topic but the majority of scholars on the topic including the most recent Nobel Prize winner in Economic argue that the New Deal greatly blunted the impact of the economic depression. Here are some numbers. From 1933 to 1939 the GNP grew at an average rate of 5.2% and unemployment dropped from 24.9% to 17.2% which is a 30% decrease in unemployment.

    The demands of WWII were payed for by the feds...so it was government intervention that did right the US economy.

    Also, for those advocating what BHO is doing and his proposed $1.8T deficit for this year, what if the Feds hold a treasury bond auction and nobody shows up? One can take *ALL* of the job-creating class' assets away through taxation and it wouldn't cover even half of that shortfall. Can you say "flat rate confiscatory tax on all cash-based assets, regardless of one's income or total accumulated wealth (AKA: inflation)"?
    Mike
    Yet interest rates for treasuries are still low...suggesting that their is more than enough demand for the securities...what else are people going to invest in, stocks, real estate...? I do agree we cannot keep borrowing like we did when Bush ran up a similar debt from 2003 to 2006 when the economy was strong. But as we learned during the great depression reducing government spending hinders rather than helps the economy. People have been making this claim since Reagan ran up huge deficits in the 80's and Clinton did in the early 90's. Will it happen one day yes, but it is not going to happen until the US is no longer the dominate player in the world economy. Treasuries are still the safest place to invest and are still considered a riskless (capital and political, not interest rate) investment in the world.
    "If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less" General Eric Shinseki

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