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Thread: Whatever Happened to Pride?

  1. #1
    Cyburbian zman's avatar
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    Whatever Happened to Pride?

    It's Sunday... so you all get a story before I get to the point of this thread...
    Last Thursday, I was struck by something that seems to be coming to the forefront these days, a topic that was more-or-less taboo in recent times seems to be getting talked about more and more casually.
    It was late night and I just finished up our hockey team's weekly practice session and some of my teammates were discussing the naming of hockey rinks around the NHL. One friend said that he hates the Buffalo Sabres because their arena is named by HSBC bank and that bank was currently sending collectors after him. This prompted another to say he never liked Boston's (formerly named) Fleet Center because THAT bank was after him at one time, now he hates the Wachovia Center in Philadelphia because that is the bank currently after him.
    I dressed and left the rink for home, but was struck with a memory of last summer and an outing with another couple. As typical, my wife and her friend sat in the back seat, with her friend's boyfriend in the front seat while I drove. Throughout the conversation on the drive, we made small talk, eventually getting onto the topic of cell phones and technology. He showed me his new phone and was bragging about the features and then said, "it's been great since the collections agencies stopped calling.
    The point is here, not to gripe about corporate naming rights on sports arenas or the many features of today's mobile communication devices but rather I was simply struck by the casual nature that these lads' financial woes were expressed.

    It used to be, in my mind at least, that one would have enough pride not to get into financial trouble. Then is someone did, it certainly wasn't shared with those around us.
    However, something changed along the way. Are financial troubles becoming more prevalent nowadays that it is becoming a fact of life or right of passage, something to share with friends to get onto common ground? Or has a general faltering of pride infected us like a social pandemic? Has the gumption to take care of ones finacnial security faded?
    In what other instances have we seen a faltering of pride?
    You get all squeezed up inside/Like the days were carved in stone/You get all wired up inside/And it's bad to be alone

    You can go out, you can take a ride/And when you get out on your own/You get all smoothed out inside/And it's good to be alone
    -Peart

  2. #2
    Cyburbian Emeritus Chet's avatar
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    Here is PRIDE

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    Cyburbian zman's avatar
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    Didn't think my thread would get shit upon so quickly... thanks...
    You get all squeezed up inside/Like the days were carved in stone/You get all wired up inside/And it's bad to be alone

    You can go out, you can take a ride/And when you get out on your own/You get all smoothed out inside/And it's good to be alone
    -Peart

  4. #4
    Cyburbian jsk1983's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Chet View post
    Here is PRIDE
    That's the first kind of "pride" I thought of too.

  5. #5
    Cyburbian natski's avatar
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    I agree with you 100% Zman. I suppose that would be seen as old fashioned these days. Maybe people are more blase about it, because more people are in that position these days and its no longer seen as shameful as 'everyone' has been/is in that position.

    Personally i wouldnt tell just anyone if i had fiancial issues.
    "Have you ever wondered if there was more to life, other than being really, really, ridiculously good looking?" Zoolander

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    Cyburbian Emeritus Chet's avatar
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    ZMan Sorry dude.

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    Cyburbian Plus Shellac And Vinyl VelocitY's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by zmanPLAN View post
    In what other instances have we seen a faltering of pride?
    On TV:
    Reality shows and some talk shows.

  8. #8
    Cyburbian Emeritus Chet's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Seana View post
    On TV:
    Reality shows and some talk shows.
    Ellen? Oprah? Judge Judy?

  9. #9
    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    Personally I would use the phrase self-respect instead of pride (which has connotations of a character flaw for me).

    40 years ago only 40% of households even had a credit card, today around 75% do. I think the notion of debt as being an undesirable state of affairs where household finances are concerned has changed in that time. With so many people doing poorly with their personal finances I believe some of the stigma is now gone.
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

  10. #10
    Cyburbian Seabishop's avatar
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    Part of it is that most people owe money to faceless corporations rather than an actual person or even a local organization.

  11. #11
    Cyburbian Plus PlannerGirl's avatar
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    The other half and I talked about a spin off of this that appalled us-the pride folks feel in shirking debt. All the TV spots with folks all upbeat and HAPPY about how they got off paying only half their credit card debt etc. Hello you made the debt your an adult pay it off and quit making the rest of us cover your sorry a$$.

    Bottom line is people seem to have no self respect, I mean come on you can see it with the PJs they wear to the store or the way their crotch fruit run amuck in stores or restaurants. Money and its management is just another indicator
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin

    Remember this motto to live by: "Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming 'WOO- HOO what a ride!'"

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    Cyburbian zman's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Chet View post
    ZMan Sorry dude.
    It's okay, Buddy. I was a little sensitive yesterday (hence the profound post on societal worries).


    Perhaps it would be better to say self-respect. Seems to be a "popularity" issue or something as well. Just thought it was interesting that it is openly discussed.

    PlannerGirl, I think the same thing about people wearing sweats or PJs out in public, but perhaps I am old fashioned. And especially the way you can "cut your credit card debt in half or more!" these days. I heard that those program totally F up your credit.


    Seabishop, perhaps it has now become an "us vs. them" sort of thing. Like "the big multi-national bank that I owe money is being mean because they want it back when I told them I would pay it back... wah!" Who knows. Just thinking this weekend. (The weather needs to warm up, so I can channel this mental yowling out on the golf course...)
    You get all squeezed up inside/Like the days were carved in stone/You get all wired up inside/And it's bad to be alone

    You can go out, you can take a ride/And when you get out on your own/You get all smoothed out inside/And it's good to be alone
    -Peart

  13. #13
    My father passed away in 2007 and because hie owed some bills, I get calls from collection agencies ALL THE TIME. I have no legal obligations, but I can't seem to stop them. So you don't always know why collection agencies are calling.

  14. #14
    Cyburbian Mud Princess's avatar
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    Hmm. I wonder if the lack of self-respect and the loss of respect (for others, for institutions, for leaders) are related. We were talking about the issue of respect just the other day. It's like when you go somewhere and people are talking loudly on their cell phones... or people who refuse to keep their dogs leashed in a public park... etc. Are they the same sort of idiots who don't care about paying their bills?

  15. #15
    Cyburbian zman's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Gotta Speakup View post
    My father passed away in 2007 and because hie owed some bills, I get calls from collection agencies ALL THE TIME. I have no legal obligations, but I can't seem to stop them. So you don't always know why collection agencies are calling.
    Contact your state attorney general. I had to do this when collection agencies were calling me about my neighbor two doors down.
    You get all squeezed up inside/Like the days were carved in stone/You get all wired up inside/And it's bad to be alone

    You can go out, you can take a ride/And when you get out on your own/You get all smoothed out inside/And it's good to be alone
    -Peart

  16. #16
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    What is the definition of pride and self-respect? Plannergirl makes a connection to what people wear, but perhaps her idea of pride and self-respect is different than those people that wear pj's to the store.

  17. #17
    Cyburbian wahday's avatar
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    Worrying about finances can be a crushing blow for many people leading to depression and even, as we have seen recently, suicide (or homicide). I wonder if the recent explosion of economic crises has made some feel people feel like they can "come out of the closet" (to stick with the Pride theme...) with regards to their financial woes. Maybe some people are realizing that their struggles to stay afloat are not just a sign of personal shortfalls, but tied into a larger narrative of troubled times.

    At the same time, I also had a disturbing conversation recently with someone who (in front of her clearly embarrassed husband) began to recount her journey into bankruptcy. First off, it really was none of my business, and secondly, the story was pitched as a "can you believe it?! the credit card companies were such jerks!" kind of way. Well, if they hadn't racked up $40k in CC debt, maybe it wouldn't have been an issue...

    But overall, I think we should be careful not to suggest that everyone who has experienced financial troubles has done so due to irresponsibility. People lose jobs and can't get new ones. Some of those people also get sick or injured and, because they lost their job, did not have insurance and their savings were wiped out. I know a few people going underwater because they got laid off but got another job at significantly lower pay. Now they can't afford their mortgage, but also can't sell the house and the property taxes are on the rise (in part because the county, also desperate for money, needs increased revenues, especially for schools).

    There is also no doubt it is just simply more expensive to live these days and the ratio of salaries to cost of living is not what it used to be. When my father was buying his first house (about 1960), the rule of thumb was "don't buy a house that costs more than one year's salary." That's certainly not the case anymore. Insurance costs are also higher - mine is covered by my work, but I pay for the wife and kids out of my paycheck and with rising costs, this next year will pay almost $6000 to cover them.

    So, I'm not sure that a rise in people talking about financial problems is a sign of people lacking to gumption to deal with their finances. Sure, maybe some people reveal a little too much personal information than is socially healthy. If talking about it helps people devise a path out of it, I say its a good thing. I'm not sure I see it as a social collapse of personal pride or self-respect. But, like natski, I wouldn't tell just anybody about my financial worries...
    The purpose of life is a life of purpose

  18. #18
    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by wahday View post
    But overall, I think we should be careful not to suggest that everyone who has experienced financial troubles has done so due to irresponsibility.
    Those are some very important points. Thanks for bringing that up. Just because someone has money problems does not necessarily mean it's their fault or that they are bad people.
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

  19. #19
    Cyburbian CJC's avatar
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    I think in regards to the debt angle, it's been a two way street to where we are now. A lot of people don't care about not paying back a faceless corporation, just as the corporations don't particularly care about the faceless customers. When credit is cheap and flowing, you can set up all sorts of models that show you default rates, the amount that you need to charge everyone to make up for those, the amount that you need to sell deliquent accounts to collections agencies for, etc. Borrow money, lend money, write off the losses, book the profits. It's not a bad business decision, but it does help perpetuate the "no one cares" society.

    I don't think I've ever had a personal relationship with someone that I've borrowed money from (aside from friends for dinner or something random like that). I've never paid late and would certainly be ashamed of being deliquent or trying to skip payment on something, but that's more because of my upbringing (save as much as you can, debt=bad, etc) and most of the people I associate with (most friends, family, coworkers), as well as the fact that I've never really run into a situation which threatened my finances (health problems, etc). There's not really anything from society in general, popular culture, government policy, or the companies that have loaned me money to instill any kind of "shame" if I were to not pay something back. Everything is just treated as a transaction, with no personal involvement.
    Last edited by CJC; 06 Apr 2009 at 2:04 PM.
    Two wrongs don't necessarily make a right, but three lefts do.

  20. #20
    Cyburbian zman's avatar
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    Contextually, the folks used in my examples are big spenders, with a profound desire to "have it all" at any cost.

    I do realize that, currently, there are some other situations in which ends cannot be met even by the most frugal.

    The catylist for my original post has been similar to the one from wahday's post, however.
    Quote Originally posted by wahday
    At the same time, I also had a disturbing conversation recently with someone who (in front of her clearly embarrassed husband) began to recount her journey into bankruptcy. First off, it really was none of my business, and secondly, the story was pitched as a "can you believe it?! the credit card companies were such jerks!" kind of way. Well, if they hadn't racked up $40k in CC debt, maybe it wouldn't have been an issue...
    You get all squeezed up inside/Like the days were carved in stone/You get all wired up inside/And it's bad to be alone

    You can go out, you can take a ride/And when you get out on your own/You get all smoothed out inside/And it's good to be alone
    -Peart

  21. #21
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Chet View post
    Judge Judy?
    Hey now... JJ will flat out kick your butt on issues like this!

    Ever seen her take down some of the low rents knuckleheads that come on her show? What a fun job that must be!
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
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  22. #22
    Cyburbian Queen B's avatar
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    I would tend to agree. There are a number of folks that have been put out of work and things do pile up. I have told friends that have been let go in a layoff that it says nothing bad about them. It is a sign of the times. Just like a parent that gets into financial problems because of high medical bills when something goes wrong and you don't have money for insurance or heck, don't have money for the deductable...

    We try very hard to be responsible but we are only one breath away from disaster should one or both of us loose our jobs. Would I discuss it with others. I would discuss the need to find work and see who could help me with that. If we were actually going belly up, probably would talk to close friends a bit.

    Most would be able to tell from my overwhelming sense of panic. I have no doubt even in this economy that I could find some kind of work but it would be hard to find the same quality.
    It is all a matter of perspective!!!

  23. #23
    Cyburbian Emeritus Chet's avatar
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    This reminds me to go get drunk and eat Taco Bell.

  24. #24
    Cyburbian Plus Shellac And Vinyl VelocitY's avatar
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    "When All You Have Left Is Your Pride" - NY Times Article

    (Edited in @one hour after initial posting.)

    Just found in today's Times!

    When All You Have Left Is Your Pride



    ________________

    Quote Originally posted by zmanPLAN View post
    . . .He showed me his new phone and was bragging about the features and then said, "it's been great since the collections agencies stopped calling.
    . .
    ...I was simply struck by the casual nature that these lads' financial woes were expressed.
    Could he have been joking--with such a straight demeanor that you did not know he was joking?

    Collections agencies rarely stop tracking down a person so suddenly, even when bankruptcy is declared. Maybe collections agencies were never calling the guy in the first place.

    Or maybe the collections agencies really are still calling him.
    Last edited by Shellac And Vinyl VelocitY; 06 Apr 2009 at 7:25 PM.

  25. #25
    Super Moderator kjel's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Gotta Speakup View post
    My father passed away in 2007 and because hie owed some bills, I get calls from collection agencies ALL THE TIME. I have no legal obligations, but I can't seem to stop them. So you don't always know why collection agencies are calling.
    Been there. The best one was the state calling me numerous times asking for reimbursement from the estate settlement for the cost of food stamps my mother received the last year she was alive That pixxed me off to no end.
    "He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me?" Jeremiah 22:16

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