APA Jobs Online: tracking the recession

[Dan]

An attempt to document the recession and recovery, as it affects the planning profession. I'll try to update this thread every day, but if I don't, another Cyburbian is more than welcome to follow up.

6 April 2009: 3 positions
7 April 2009: 3
8 April 2009: 7
9 April 2009: 3
10 April 2009: 5
11 April 2009: 1

14 April 2009: 3
15 April 2009: 5
16 April 2009: 2
17 April 2009: 4
18 April 2009: 5

20 April 2009: 4
21 April 2009: 4
22 April 2009: 4

New positions on Jobs Online on 22 April 2009: 4
Total positions as of 22 April 2009: 109
Total entry level positions as of 22 April 200: 4

[Dan]

To compare with the past: (more dates to be posted soon)

New positions on Jobs Online on 4 December 2006: 9
New positions on Jobs Online on 5 December 2006: 13
New positions on Jobs Online on 6 December 2006: 16
New positions on Jobs Online on 7 December 2006: 6

New positions on Jobs Online on 8 December 2006: 9
Total positions as of 8 December 2006: 173
Total entry level positions as of 8 December 2006: 27


New positions on Jobs Online on 15 November 2007: 7
New positions on Jobs Online on 16 November 2007: 11
New positions on Jobs Online on 19 November 2007: 10
New positions on Jobs Online on 20 November 2007: 4

New positions on Jobs Online on 21 November 2007: 11
Total positions as of 21 November 2007: 130
Total entry level positions as of 21 November 2007: 16

[The District]

another good indicator would be the jobs found on selectleaders.com, a reputable real estate job site. while many of these are not planning per se, it's pretty hard to separate the condition of the planning and real estate markets--change in one market is often reflective of changes in the other market.

[Dan]

New positions on Jobs Online on 23 April 2009: 4
Total positions as of 23 April 2009: 108
Total entry level positions as of 23 April 200: 4

[rcgplanner]

Interesting comparision Dan. I think what is most telling is the sharp decrease in entry-level positions. It is a double wammy for planners entering the field; less entry-level positions and much stiffer competition for those positions with seasoned planners applying for entry-level positions.

It will be interesting to see what the attendace is at the APA Job Fair in Minneapolis. Does anyone know how many firms and govs were at the job fair in LV?

[mike gurnee]

I think the job fair will be a bust. If employers are in financial binds, they won't attend. It is a bad time for us; I see as others have posted, lateral and even backwards moves by the senior levels. It will get better.

[Dan]

New positions on Jobs Online on 24 April 2009: 4
Total positions as of 24 April 2009: 111
Total entry level positions as of 24 April 2009: 4

[pierre-montee]

Interesting comparision Dan. I think what is most telling is the sharp decrease in entry-level positions. It is a double wammy for planners entering the field; less entry-level positions and much stiffer competition for those positions with seasoned planners applying for entry-level positions.

It will be interesting to see what the attendace is at the APA Job Fair in Minneapolis. Does anyone know how many firms and govs were at the job fair in LV?

There was about 18 entry-level jobs spread amongst 12 companies at the LV conference job fair. City of New York was the biggest recruiter last year.

Those were the 18 most expensive jobs I've ever applied for.




Dan, I wish my laptop hadn't gotten stolen. I had an excel spreadsheet of a majority of the jobs [entry-level to 3 years experience] posted on the APA website between Jan. 2008 to Oct. 2008 and compared the requirements in the APA ad to the ads posted on the respective websites.

It came out to a few hundred fraudulently posted job ads (advertised as entry-level, were definitely not entry-level) and something close to 20k in lost ad revenue. The APA surely didn't care though.

[Dan]

New positions on Jobs Online on 1 May 2009: 3
Total positions as of 1 May 2009: 124
Total entry level positions as of 1 April 2009: 5

It came out to a few hundred fraudulently posted job ads (advertised as entry-level, were definitely not entry-level) and something close to 20k in lost ad revenue. The APA surely didn't care though.

Seriously? Like they were looking for more than one year of experience, AICP certification, or the like? Here's one that is under "entry level", defined as 0-1 year of experience, for a zoning administrator position in Logansport, Indiana. Were there really a few hundred such misplaced ads?

REQUIREMENTS:
BA in Planning, Public Administration or a closely related field or an Associate degree in business or related fields, plus three to five years of related experience. Details regarding specific responsibilities and requirements, as well as application requirements can be obtained on the City's website at: www. cityoflogansport. org

[pierre-montee]

2 Weeks $150
3 Weeks $200
4 Weeks $250
Entry-level positions* — 4 weeks $50
Internship positions** — 4 weeks FREE

* Entry-level positions should require no more than 1 year of experience.

** Internship positions refer to 3-6 month temporary positions suitable for students, and should not require job experience.

Like they were looking for more than one year of experience, AICP certification, or the like?

Yep, yep and more. A lot of them would be like "Planner I- B.A. with one year experience." Then you pull up the website of the employer to double check everything and the organization's website would read "Planner I- Master's with 2 years specialized experience."

This leads me to draw two conclusions-- either the job hadn't been generating interest through whatever local channels were available and willing to compromise and or they didn't want to pay the extra $150 bucks to post a more appropriate advertisement.

The problem with the first conclusion-- even if the job hadn't been generating the necessary interest, they should have changed the ads as they could across the board. This is mildly unprofessional for an organization to not handle their own operation as professionally as what they are demanding from new people coming into the workforce. You can't give a half-assed approach and demand the world.

The problem with the second conclusion-- I know it looks good to keep costs down and operate smoothly. But really... if you can't pay an extra $150 bucks to place a national ad, you shouldn't be hiring nationally! I doubt, if your company is being that big of a cheapskate, that I will get anything more than shit pay with no relocation package or benefits.

And what kind of experience are you expecting out of fresh graduates? I can see two years general experience as "entry-level" but a year of special experience in transportation planning is decidedly not.

I think my running tally was around USD$24,000. So, divide by USD$150 [the potential money lost from a regular 4-week job posting and you get around 160 jobs. I mean... not a whole lot... but it was quite a bit from what I had personally gathered. I even omitted ads that were vaguely on the fence of whether they were entry level or not-- ads that were seeking a years experience, ads looking for specialized education and so on.

If employers lie on their job advertisements, why can't I lie on my resume? But, yeah, I'm not sure "misplaced" is the right word since the APA doesn't seem to police their own ads and go after they money they rightfully deserve. Rather don't deserve in this instance.

I'm not sure this is OT or not-- but when I had e-mailed the APA in my frustration 3 months into my job search... I got an e-mail basically saying that I should blame myself and that I should somehow find experience to get an entry level job. It was written in three different fonts (arial, tahoma and times new roman) in 4 colors (standard blue, forest green, fuschia and lavender)-- to boot, it was had a signature that was a MSpaint-esque graphic of "fancy" script that was purple with a little starburst/sunflare.

[Raf]

[ot]I'm not sure this is OT or not-- but when I had e-mailed the APA in my frustration 3 months into my job search... I got an e-mail basically saying that I should blame myself and that I should somehow find experience to get an entry level

I'll agree with the APA on that one. If your limiting yourself to just the APA and looking for your first gig with no experience, well, you are in a tough boat. Most job search "experts" agree that just relaying on the internet for job search is like doing a 25% effort. Looking for a job is a job into itself, especially for fresh grads. Have you tried calling local agencies? Contacting private firms? Tried non-profits? Worked with your school regarding alumni postings? Have you considered volunteering to gain the necessary experience? I mean employers have the upper hand because there is a good pool of candidates with experience that have been laid off competing with you, and thus you have to break yourself apart in some way shape or form. To blame APA for your 3 months of falling short of landing a job is just immature imo.

[nrschmid]

Well, it's official. I've been laid off today after nearly four years. I can now PACK MY KNIVES AND GO!!!

In some ways its a huge relief since I anticipated this for the past 2 years Thank GOD I passed AICP on the first try last fall (and am pretty far along in studying for the LEED-AP which I still plan to take in June). Thank GOD for taking a much-needed do-nothing vacation to sunny Palm Springs CA two weeks ago

I like to make one comparison of my lay-off to the reality show Top Chef in case you didn't pick up on it above. Every time a contestant was killed off the show, he/she politely thanked the judges for the experience, bowed into the background, "packed their knives" and moved over to another apartment where they were welcomed by all of the other contestants that were kicked off before them. It was like a huge family. EVERYONE IS IN THIS TOGETHER. I am just now on the other side with a bunch of other people, and things will work out for me. I am very very VERY lucky to have many things right now: no house or dependents, a decent inheritance, excellent health, time on my hands, family, friends, and um, yeah, you guys, too

Raf, makes an excellent point. I, too, will be looking all over the place for work, now more than ever. If you are fresh out of school, I highly recommend you do whatever you can to set yourself apart from the competition, because it gets fiercer by the day...I just added another tick mark to the job seeker board. MUAHAHAHAHAHA.....



Time to move on...

[Raf]

Well, it's official. I've been laid off today after nearly four years. In some ways its a huge relief since I anticipated this for the past 2 years

Time to move on...

Bummer. The ax will be falling soon if i don't land this zoning ordinance update next week. Good luck Nick! I am sure something will turn up right quick for you.

[pierre-montee]

The e-mail was regarding why they weren't taking their ads seriously. Newspapers and other forms of media that advertise jobs tend to put a "disclaimer" in that the information do not reflect on the medium in any way, shape or form. This was probably about March of 2008 when I had sent the e-mail. Not that I had any influence in this but the president of the APA, Bob Hunter, at last year's conference made it pretty clear the the younger generations need to be included more and it was imperative for organizations to make this a goal. He mentioned it in the keynote and made it ridiculously clear during the young planners meeting. None of this has really happened. Wouldn't expect it to happen in a recession. But the higher ups have at least nodded that this sort of thing is a real problem. Have you tried calling local agencies? Yes. Not Hiring. Haven't been since the start of 2008. Some jobs have popped up but not many. Contacting private firms? There's 4 and they only want people with bona fide architectural backgrounds since they're mostly architectural firms. Don't have a civil engineering license to work really anywhere else. Tried non-profits? There's not really any in Orlando that offer compelling experience. I don't have the credit to work for free "helping" homeless people by trying to jam them under an overpass. Worked with your school regarding alumni postings? My school doesn't do much of that at all and most of it is bunk. Have you considered volunteering to gain the necessary experience? Yes. I "work" for three groups, writing grants for a fourth and do pro bono for not-so-lucrative people. Volunteered for a big portion of my teen summers for the federal government and the ASPCA. Internships? Don't have the credit to float a $30,000 to go live in DC, New York or Chicago for six months to a year for a "position" that's probably not paid and $8/hour for thirty hours a week in Manhattan is an insult. My e-mail was not blaming the APA but more or less accusatory for bad hiring practices and them not maintaining any sort of credibility by essentially sponsoring companies that lie on what can be conceived as legally binding documents. To say, "your [hosted] ads are misleading and damaging..." and to only get the basic response of "blame yourself and get a job to try to get a job" is not exactly... uhhmm... the most appropriate way to handle any of this. I expect a professional organization to not be another monster.com. Also, I'm not sure if I speak for my entire generation or even a part... but most of us don't really have the money or credit to drive to every office in the region to beg for a job once a week or month. Even then, demanding that people demean themselves to a point of street-urchin-styled begging isn't really conducive to harboring a level of respect. Trust me, I've already done my fair share of begging but even places with deplorable hiring policies have been polite enough to put things straight out there. I think more companies should be saying "you have too much experience" or "you're too qualified for this position." Wal-Mart and Target both did it to me! I think more organizations should be doing it to the master's degree with 5 years experience applying for $28,000 a year jobs. I mean... sure, as a company you're getting a delightful bargain but you're creating an unholy union of passive-aggression and entitlement. You might as well just juggle with bottles of nitroglycerin.

[nrschmid]

You need a smack on the side of the head before an internship.

First, the only person you can count for anything is YOU. Not APA, not your professors, walmart, or Obama.

Second, internships are found all over the place. Several of my first internships in college were in GIS since the planning jobs on campus when to graduate students. Through hard work and detemination I landed planning internships and then my first job (see previous posts). You DO NOT need to practice planning in a big flashy city. It might mean doing grunt work for the small rural code enforcer. I will give you the benefit of the doubt: yes, it is MUCH harder to do these things when the economy is crappy, but it is not impossible.

Third, what did you know about the planning INDUSTRY before you started the degree?

Fourth, you have two degrees, which is one more than I do. Think outside the box bro! Have you started the paperwork for federal full time positions?

[chupacabra]

Have you started the paperwork for federal full time positions?

You'll have the best luck with 'term' and temporary positions. Federal employees like to play musical chairs with the full time-permanent positions, and most broke in by being term employees untill they had enough experience to compete against the 'tenured' bureaucrats.

[beach_bum]

Well, it's official. I've been laid off today after nearly four years. I can now PACK MY KNIVES AND GO!!!

Sorry to hear that nrschmid, if I have learned one thing about you on these board is that you are one of the most prepared people for a situations like this. Sounds like you knew it was coming and you were ready. Keep us updated on your progress.

Moving on (sorry Dan, we have totally hijacked your recession report thread!) to pierre-montee's situation, the best advice I give you is get out of Florida, especially Orlando if you want to work as a planner. I left the state a year ago because I knew things were only going to get worse with the housing bubble bursting. Mostly all of my friends who I graduated with that found jobs in Florida a year ago are now laid off and my friends that just graduated are having trouble finding employment, especially in FL. I used to work in Orlando I can't tell you how many of my more experienced-planner friends have lost their jobs, especially those working in the private sector.

[Dan]

New positions on Jobs Online on 4 May 2009: 1
Total positions as of 4 May 2009: 125
Total entry level positions as of 4 April 2009: 5

[Raf]

Also, I'm not sure if I speak for my entire generation or even a part... but most of us don't really have the money or credit to drive to every office in the region to beg for a job once a week or month. Even then, demanding that people demean themselves to a point of street-urchin-styled begging isn't really conducive to harboring a level of respect.

Trust me, I've already done my fair share of begging but even places with deplorable hiring policies have been polite enough to put things straight out there. I think more companies should be saying "you have too much experience" or "you're too qualified for this position." Wal-Mart and Target both did it to me! I think more organizations should be doing it to the master's degree with 5 years experience applying for $28,000 a year jobs. I mean... sure, as a company you're getting a delightful bargain but you're creating an unholy union of passive-aggression and entitlement. You might as well just juggle with bottles of nitroglycerin.[/ot]

Bitch bitch bitch.. whine whine whine. You pretty much sum up what the old geezers think of our generation. Dude, get off you high horse, dig in the mud and volunteer in sticksville for free and get some experience. Got no money? Swallow your pride and move in with family. Got no $$ gas, i am sure a family member can spare a few bucks, and take the bus. Everyone has to earn the stripes. Just because you have a grad degree doesn't give you "entitlement" to a job. You earn it. So what if it pays 28,0000 bucks? Take it, make good use of it and run after a year or two. Experience goes a looong ways versus sitting on your ass and posting on web forums and bitching to the world.

[pierre-montee]

Beach_Bum.... I have disagreed with you on somethings but thank god for understanding the situation. It's not that I'm necessarily complaining-- well I am because hiring practices should go both ways. But Florida has its own special charm that beach_bum hit at quite perfectly. To CPSU, I've lived and volunteered for 4 months in Worland, Wy. You can blow a goat because I've been to the reaches of the first world.

[Michele Zone]

Even then, demanding that people demean themselves to a point of street-urchin-styled begging isn't really conducive to harboring a level of respect.

Respect is a wonderful thing. But it isn't effective to demand it. It's more effective to treat others with respect as a means for creating a respectful environment. I can't say I have noticed you being respectful to anyone here yet. If how you come across here is any indication of how you come across in person, that is likely contributing to your job hunting difficulties. People who have a lot of technical expertise (for lack of a better term) but can't get or keep a job usually have either personality problems or personal problems. I was unemployed for a long time due to serious health problems. I did what I had to do to get well enough to get a job. That's not supposed to be possible for me.

sure, as a company you're getting a delightful bargain but you're creating an unholy union of passive-aggression and entitlement. You might as well just juggle with bottles of nitroglycerin.

True. But the reality is that you will probably have to accept a job below what you hope for to get a foot in the door. I took something unrelated to my career plans just to get a job. This is wisdom that comes from someone I know who is good at the job-hunting thing. I still feel underemployed and am increasingly resentful of that fact. But the truth is that when I first began working, my current job is all I could handle -- because of my health problems and the physical limitations it imposed. As I resolve my health problems, I can handle more and I believe that will open up other opportunities. But I am not sure that it will let me advance at my current place of employment. I think my frustration and resentment is starting to show and will hurt any hopes I have of getting promoted or finding another job within the company.

I'm not trying to crack on you. I strongly suspect it will be perceived that way and would be no matter how I framed it. I walked away from a National Merit Scholarship to go find out who I was other than an obnoxious braniac. I'm all too familiar with how you behave and some of the reasons why. I've spent much of my life working to undo what society did to me by holding me up as the person to hate in school and giving me no other logical options but to lord it over everyone else in self defense. You can keep lording it over other people...and remain jobless...or you can make other choices. It's up to you.

Ideally, the best way to help you with this is through patience and tolerance, modeling other options, etc. But that takes a lot of time and may not help any if it comes too late because your current problems seem to be dragging on rather long.

Good luck.

[Dan]

To CPSU, I've lived and volunteered for 4 months in Worland, Wy. You can blow a goat because I've been to the reaches of the first world. You wouldn't say that in person, would you? Than don't say it online. Don't talk like that to another Forums member. Chill out, okay? See ya' in a few days.

[Dan]

New positions on Jobs Online on 5 May 2009: 4
Total positions as of 5 May 2009: 75
Total entry level positions as of 5 April 2009: 4

[nrschmid]

Keep us updated on your progress.

On the day of my lay off, I received a tip from a friend's husband on a draftsman job doing AutoCAD for hopsitals a couple of towns away. A few other people have approached me on here and another website, not to mention my ex-employer, regarding me as a potential independent contractor. I am going to the IDES office on Monday to find out what types of work I may be elligible while collecting unemployment. On a separate note, I talked with a few planners/non-planners about being paid under the table as an independent contractor. I have worked as an independent contractor for 4 years, and always reported my earnings on a separate schedule with my 1040. Would being paid in cash under the table be considered an AICP ethics violation?

I currently have applications for two transportation planning jobs that I fast-tracked using an endorsement from a statewide politican (my former boss who now sits on the transportation agency's board of directors). Right now, I think those two applications are stalled due to the recent announcement for USDOT's stimulus funding for high speed rail programs. However, I have a few other tricks up my sleeve to get those two applications moving again.

Obviously that is not a lot right now. For the next couple of weeks I am wrapping up work on my flash portfolio, which is almost 2 years in the making. Then I will applying for jobs both in-state and out of state, re-starting the federal job application process, and revising my study schedule for the 2008 LEED-NC exam, which I still plan on taking on 6/26/2006. If anyone wants more information on me, including work samples and/or cut-sheets, please PM me. I will keep you all posted.

[Cardinal]

On a separate note, I talked with a few planners/non-planners about being paid under the table as an independent contractor. I have worked as an independent contractor for 4 years, and always reported my earnings on a separate schedule with my 1040. Would being paid in cash under the table be considered an AICP ethics violation?

I am not sure about an AICP ethics violation, but I would not recommend it. As an employer, I would need to either pay a person directly, paying withholding and social security taxes, or possibly pay as an independent contractor filing a 1099. Either way, the IRS can track that money. There really is no alternative of "pating under the table" because the income my company receives is tracked similarly. Play it safe. You do not want to mess with the IRS.