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    San Luis Obispo, Ca

    Okay, by California standards a city is considered urban if it has 50,000 population + and it's continious area is also urbanized.

    http://www.dailyyonder.com/versions-rural-california

    San Luis Obispo has always been urban to me, and I think the state considers them to be urban also. The argument I think lies with Cal Poly. The dorm residents aren't considered apart of the city population. I think they should though. Most are out of state and far from their homes and stay in the dorms almost all the time. It's no different than a person staying in an apartment.

    There are currently 6,000 students staying at the Cal Poly dorms. The city has 44,750 population. If you put the dorm residents and the incorporated city together you get over 50,000 population.

    My question is why are the dorm residents not considered apart of the city? Is it because Cal Poly is within the rural, county-zoned parts of San Luis Obispo city? Will the 2010 census reveal SLO is bigger than it appears?

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    Cyburbian Raf's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by urban19 View post
    San Luis Obispo has always been urban to me, and I think the state considers them to be urban also.
    The state of california does not define/urban suburban etc. The only quantification is from HCD for the allocation of affordable housing, to which san luis obipso county is considered a suburban jurisdiction.
    http://www.hcd.ca.gov/hpd/housing_el...SIA_zoning.php

    The state does not control who/what it counts for population. The census does. It builds its projects (well the state department of finance) off of census numbers and other figures such as property tax receipts, birth, death, etc.

    Quote Originally posted by urban19 View post
    The argument I think lies with Cal Poly. The dorm residents aren't considered apart of the city population. I think they should though.
    The census defines the cal poly dormitories as a "group quarters".

    https://ask.census2010.gov/cgi-bin/a...i=&p_topview=1
    Since this is seasonal, and the population fluctuates from month to month, year to year, they are not counted as "residents" of the city but more so considered transients. It sucks, but these folks are in flux for 4 to 5 years, is it really fair to allocate them as a part of the city for the purpose of a congressional seat? Probably not, but they still get counted for the overall state numbers, etc.


    Quote Originally posted by urban19 View post
    Most are out of state and far from their homes and stay in the dorms almost all the time. It's no different than a person staying in an apartment.
    Can you quantify this, or is this a simple state of facts from the world of Urban19? Most of the dorms residents in fact are not from out of state, but are from in state and everywhere else, considering 98% of the freshman live their the first year. And no, they did not stay in the dorm most of the time. They came and went into the city and spent money and utilized services. Again, the argument against counting them is they disappear at the beginning of summer and act more as transients. And do apartment dwellers stay in their apartments all the time? I think not. Get your facts strait before you continue your uneducated ramblings.

    Quote Originally posted by urban19 View post
    There are currently 6,000 students staying at the Cal Poly dorms. The city has 44,750 population. If you put the dorm residents and the incorporated city together you get over 50,000 population.

    My question is why are the dorm residents not considered apart of the city? Is it because Cal Poly is within the rural, county-zoned parts of San Luis Obispo city? Will the 2010 census reveal SLO is bigger than it appears?
    Again, some research and knowing where a city derives its population will go a long way from asking dumb questions like this. And yes, the census does count us. I took part in Census 2000 at the Cal Poly Dorms as a student, so i got counted somewhere
    Men do dumb $hit... it is what they do to correct the problem that counts.

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    so what about people calling riverside and victorville ex-urban? Or pasadena and glendale suburbs?

    i have heard people call san luis obispo ex-urban before.

    Are you suggesting that there are urbanized areas and rural areas, and no urban cities and no suburban cities? But cities that follow under a certain urbanized or rural area?

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    Cyburbian Raf's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by urban19 View post
    so what about people calling riverside and victorville ex-urban? Or pasadena and glendale suburbs?

    i have heard people call san luis obispo ex-urban before.

    Are you suggesting that there are urbanized areas and rural areas, and no urban cities and no suburban cities? But cities that follow under a certain urbanized or rural area?
    Yes. And i didn't suggest it. Census 2010 does.
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    i have heard the terms ex-urban, suburban, urban, urban-rural fringe, and rural used before to describe places in california. so where is the information that says a town is a suburb and so fourth?

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    Cyburbian Raf's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by urban19 View post
    i have heard the terms ex-urban, suburban, urban, urban-rural fringe, and rural used before to describe places in california. so where is the information that says a town is a suburb and so fourth?
    These are terms to describe a lot of places, not just california. Really, who makes them up? Well, to be quite honest i don't really know, but my educated guess would be experts in the field of urban planning and development. These terms really just describe a type of development pattern and nothing else. When you are talking about population (to which your original question was about, and clearly answered why) planners rely on census data. The Census is a government project to count every citizen of the united states every 10 years and we have been doing it since 1790 as mandated by the constitution. The census links information for areas for data purposes as a correlation between population and economics:

    http://www.census.gov/population/www...boutmetro.html

    This is a consistent standard to tier research on. The terms ex-urban, suburban, etc. are ambiguous, and well too many variables to come to a definitive category.

    Again as always, i don't see what the obsession is between urban/suburban etc but i hope this helps.
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    Quote Originally posted by CPSURaf View post
    These are terms to describe a lot of places, not just california. Really, who makes them up? Well, to be quite honest i don't really know, but my educated guess would be experts in the field of urban planning and development. These terms really just describe a type of development pattern and nothing else. When you are talking about population (to which your original question was about, and clearly answered why) planners rely on census data. The Census is a government project to count every citizen of the united states every 10 years and we have been doing it since 1790 as mandated by the constitution. The census links information for areas for data purposes as a correlation between population and economics:

    http://www.census.gov/population/www...boutmetro.html

    This is a consistent standard to tier research on. The terms ex-urban, suburban, etc. are ambiguous, and well too many variables to come to a definitive category.

    Again as always, i don't see what the obsession is between urban/suburban etc but i hope this helps.
    well, yeah i guess this is kind of another question then. what r the reguirements to be a suburb or ex-urb in california? i looked at books and many websites and havent found the answer. i just found through your link there are urbanized areas (urban citys) and rural areas (rural citys or towns). and then it mentioned principal cities.

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    so has anyone heard about the Dalidio Ranch Marketplace? It just had an appeal get approved, and now its moving forward. If no one contests the appeal, then it would move forward and construction would start in months. The project is rumored to have Macy's and JcPenney's now that TJ'Max'N'More is going in Irish Hills Plaza, and Target is going to Prefumo Creek Commons.

    Once San Luis Obispo has it's mall, and a Macy's I will consider it to have full-on city life. Costco was step one, and step two is a Macy's.

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    Cyburbian eightiesfan's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by urban19 View post
    so has anyone heard about the Dalidio Ranch Marketplace? It just had an appeal get approved, and now its moving forward. If no one contests the appeal, then it would move forward and construction would start in months. The project is rumored to have Macy's and JcPenney's now that TJ'Max'N'More is going in Irish Hills Plaza, and Target is going to Prefumo Creek Commons.

    Once San Luis Obispo has it's mall, and a Macy's I will consider it to have full-on city life. Costco was step one, and step two is a Macy's.
    Wow, that sounds like every other strip mall in America. I'd rather watch paint dry.

    I'd question the idea that a mall, Macy's and Costco are the makings of a full-on city.
    Regrets, I've had a few; But then again, too many to mention.

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    Well, I consider where ever a mall is where city life is.

    Malls are in urban areas usually.

    Malls in California are in suburbs, urban downtowns, and in rural and ex-urban urban cores.

    So, pretty much they are in very urban developed areas. And city boys and girls, like to hang in urban areas. And most city boys and girl like to hang in malls. So, I think a mall represent city life for teens.

    A Costco, I guess doesn't represent city life or urban cores. But they are usually in urbanized areas and central cities.

    Macy's sells urban fashion like rocawear, ecko, and many citys usually have rich folks rather than middle-class country folk living in urban sprawl. So I think saying Macy's is a representation of city life to some extent is accurate.

    And last, but not least. Dalidio Ranch Marketplace is categorized as power center/lifestyle center. It meets the criteria for both. It has two department stores, a grocery store, a hotel, and a food court for the lifestyle center part. And a Lowe's, REI, Office Deposit, pier 1 imports, lane bryant, and some store that will replace Sports Authority to make it a power center.

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    Cyburbian Raf's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by urban19 View post
    Well, I consider where ever a mall is where city life is.


    Macy's sells urban fashion like rocawear, ecko, and many citys usually have rich folks rather than middle-class country folk living in urban sprawl. So I think saying Macy's is a representation of city life to some extent is accurate.
    You have one poor view of an urban life. You really need to broaden your horizons and read some jane jacobs before entering any planning program.

    http://www.amazon.com/Death-American...0480659&sr=8-9
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    Cyburbian rcgplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by urban19 View post
    Well, I consider where ever a mall is where city life is.

    Malls are in urban areas usually.

    I am not even sure how to respond to this. Malls are a terrible indicator of whether someplace is urban or not. In most of my expereience most malls are at the fringes of an urban area. Very few cities have malls in their urban core, namely because the cost of land is much higher in the city center. Futhermore, the typical mall layout is the antithesis of the urban form. Most malls are a collection of buildings around a massive sea of parking.

    I am not familar with how a power center/lifestyle center has anything to do with urbanity. Most of those centers are in far-flung suburbs, a good distance from the urban core.

    The only potential valid point is that major retail destinations tend to be located in the same metro area as the central city and the more major the mall the larger the central city. As you can see from this Wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._United_States, out of the 24 largest malls in the US, 17 are located in major metro areas.

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    i guess you are right about malls not representing urban life

    they represent suburban life.

    urban im thinking of downtown fashion districts, and maybe three story malls.
    downtown san diego: Hortan Plaza (3 story mall in fashion district)
    downtown san francisco: San Francisco Centre (3 story mall in fashion district)
    downtown glendale: Glendale Galleria (3 story mall in fashion district)
    downtown burbank: Burbank Town Center (3 story mall in fashion district)

    -urban=downtown fashion districts with really tall buildings
    -urban sprawl in suburbs, rural cities, and ex-urbs I think of regional malls, lifestyle centers, and power centers
    -and rural I think of nothing to some community centers

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    ^Those malls that you mention are quite different from one another.

    The Burbank mall is a suburban-style mall that just happens to be in sort of urban area. There are no outward-facing stores, there's a giant parking structure fronting the street on three sides, etc. The Glendale mall is basically the same, only the surrounding area of "downtown Glendale" is even less urban than Burbank.

    By comparison, the SF mall is ten stories (not three, as you mentioned), has active street use on the three sides that it faces streets, the mall has no parking of its own (there are numerous garages in the area, but the mall itself doesn't have any) and connects directly to a heavy-rail subway station. You can literally go from train to Bloomingdale's in a minute. Horton Plaza is of a similar type (being a truly urban mall), though transit access isn't as good.
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    Cyburbian Raf's avatar
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    I would consider none of the malls you listed near fashion districts. Want a true fashion district? Visit the Fashion District in LA south of Downtown. There is not a mall to be seen. Simply raw fashion, fabrics, and dirt cheap chic clothing. Fashion districts do not equate tall buildings. Simply areas where products are produced in geographic region.
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    alright, then i guess LA, San Diego, San Francisco, Santa Monica, Santa Ana, San Jose, Long Beach, and Oakland are the only major cities with fashion districts.

    santa monica has the third street promenade and their downtown area.
    long beach has the pike and harbor area
    santa ana has a fashion district in their downtown
    San jose has santana row and their downtown
    oakland has a fashion district i think

    so i guess this might be right?

    urban=fashion districts
    urban sprawl=power centers, regional malls, lifestyle centers
    rural=none to some community centers

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    Just curious as to where you think the Fashion District is in San Diego? I would not consider Horton Plaza to be a fashion district, its basically a standard California style outdoor shopping mall located in Downtown San Diego. Like Raf said, a fashion district is usually considered to be a place where clothing is designed, produced and distributed (usually directly by the designer/manufacturer) in the same geographic region. The only place in southern CA that fits into this category would be the Fashion District in LA. An urban retail center like Horton Plaza, The Third Street Promenade, or the San Francisco Centre would not.

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    Cyburbian CJC's avatar
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    I agree with Nicksticks and Raf - urban19, I think the areas you mention might be better referred to as just urban retail centers or shopping districts. There isn't really a fashion district in the western US other than the one in LA.
    Two wrongs don't necessarily make a right, but three lefts do.

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    Cyburbian Raf's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by urban19 View post

    santa monica has the third street promenade and their downtown area.
    long beach has the pike and harbor area
    santa ana has a fashion district in their downtown
    San jose has santana row and their downtown
    oakland has a fashion district i think

    so i guess this might be right?

    urban=fashion districts
    urban sprawl=power centers, regional malls, lifestyle centers
    rural=none to some community centers
    These are just shopping areas, not fashion district. And how does urban sprawl=power centers, regional malls, and lifestyle centers exactly? You do realize these types of projects may be constructed as urban infill?

    **shakes his head**
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    Hmmm.....

    All this talk of malls is making me want an Orange Julius drink



    How I know a place is Urban= I know it when I see it
    How I know a place is Rural= I know it when I DON'T see it
    How I know a place is Suburban= All other places
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    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    If you want to see a fashion district get out of California! They have these in places like New York, London, Toronto, Rome. Anywhere else pales in comparison.

    Macy's or Ambercrombie are just stores. A district will have distinct craftsmen working together to produce a product, people who just do designing, or fabricating, or marketing, or assembling, or retailing. You're comparison is like comparing an Automall to Detroit, Stutgart, Toyoda, or N Italy.
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    Okay, so I talked to my urban 101 teacher/urban scene and he said that in California there is:

    metropolis (msa-metropolitan statistical area)
    incorporated (cities)
    non-urbanized municipality (town)

    He said rural is when you can not see one building to the next because there is nothing there, but open space.

    He also said that the words urban, suburban, ex-urban, and rural are used as descriptive words now and not to identify cities. He says there is urbanized or non-urbanized. Anything with population density of 1,000 ppl per square mile is urbanized.

    He also mentioned that city life to him is when teenagers hang at the mall, go bowling, and see movies in the cinemas. Mentioning that back in time, in the Roman era teens would go to public squares that were like malls to be hang out.

    He mentioned country girls and country boys are the extreme opposite where they don't like to leave their towns, dont like entering the city, and prefer to stay on their farms and do outdoors activities in the area.

    I think having a mall in a city is teenage icon for city life. Strolling the mall, grinding at partys, going bowling, and seeing a movie in the big cinemas is what all of my city friends like to do. To me, if an area does not have all this then there is no real city life. LA has urban malls, raves and big parties, and everything a normal city would have but more. Malls are typical urban hang out spots for teens. Eating at the food court and checking out what's new in the stores passes by alot of time. So, no mall means no "real" city life.

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    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    No offense but you need to travel. Rural may not have many people, but it is not just open space. There are places where rural is forest, it is ag, it could be enormous state or national parks, Not all city people love the city, not all country people hate the city. Most people live in large cities only because that is part of their culture and where the jobs are.

    I was recently out in your world (California). The malls in the area I hung my hat were places of commerce and did nothing to draw people to them to hang out. Instead people were hanging out in places like Balboa Island, Huntington Beach, and Laguna Beach.
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    Of course the malls are based on commerce. The malls are privately owned and they want to attract consumers and not teens to hang out. Most malls have food courts and teenager stores for teens to check out. That's what draws teens to hang there. Some malls still have arcades, movie theaters, and laser tag arenas. The mall in Santa Maria has all three, a food court, and teenager stores.

    Typical city life
    -strolling the shopping mall
    -go bowling, see a movie, or go the beach
    -party

    Also, small cities don't have city life. City life is pretty much derived from big city life where there's a mall, alot of parties, bowling alleys, and cinemas.

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    So let me get back to the main question. What do you think a mall represents?

    This is what I'm thinking:

    Costco=urban core in region
    Regional mall or lifestyle center=entertainment for teens in the city
    Macy's or other upscale department stores like Nordstrom's, Sak's Fifth Avenue, Bloomingdales, etc...=wealthy community

    If San Luis Obispo has a Costco, then they have an urban core.
    If San Luis Obispo has a lifestyle center (Dalidio Ranch Marketplace), then there is entertainment for city teens and a greater clothes shopping selection for consumers.
    If San Luis Obispo has a Macy's, then San Luis Obispo is a wealthy community.

    Most areas will have both a Costco and mall. Some areas will have Macy's. Chico, Merced, and Woodland do not have Macy's. They are primarily middle-class cities.

    Yuba City and Hanford don't have Costco yet, so this means they don't have an urban core. There is no real job core in Yuba City or Hanford, so why place a Costco in area with low-population area with no job core to support the Costco.
    Last edited by urban19; 31 Aug 2009 at 7:25 PM.

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