Do any cities have escrow accounts or require that any projects are finished? A recent trip to both Phoenix and Las Vegas made me realize how depressing unfinished buildings can be for a town. Is it feasible to require that complete financing be secured before projects start or that developers pay into an escrow account should the projects fail?
The concern is that developers are going under, so the solution is to make developers take out an additional enormous escrow to cover the costs of private improvements? Okay, so what happens to the casino once the developer goes under, the City steps in and uses escrow funds to complete the project? Does the City now own a casino? And what if (as is usually the case in my experiences) the escrowed funds are no longer adequate to cover the cost to finish the job? Do you use public funds to complete the building?
To messy. Just leave it alone and time will take care of this. There is no need for local gov't to start getting involved in any aspect of development other than the regulatory side. Just my opinion.
Much work remains to be done before we can announce our total failure to make any progress.
Unless the partial construction is a hazard and not secured. Open pits, crumbling structures, dangerous materials being stored, fall zones, partially completed 404 site work and incomplete drainage improvements posing a threat to off site property.....I'm missing about a dozen other safety reasons for why we bond project improvements....Originally posted by transguy
On the ground, protecting the Cyburbia Shove since 2004.
There is one in a small town nearby that the bank finally put a chainlink fence around.
I fault greedy lenders for not making these guys buy bonding insurance as a condition of a loan.
Sometimes these kinds of projects can be an issue of civic or even national embarassment. The hotel in Pyongyang, North Korea comes to mind. It only took 16 years for them to start work on it again after it had laid dormant and incomplete for that long.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryugyong_Hotel
"When life gives you lemons, just say 'No thanks'." - Henry Rollins
I don't know about you, but I don't think I'd want to enter that buildingI mean really, what kind of code, if any, did they use to build it? Do they even have "real" structural engineers in that country? Even if they had outside help, I'd wonder if they built it right in the first place
On the ground, protecting the Cyburbia Shove since 2004.
Oh I agree. Especially considering the fact that for 16 years it's sat without many of the windows or doors to keep out the elements. I'm sure that had to have some effect on the structure itself.I don't know about you, but I don't think I'd want to enter that building
"When life gives you lemons, just say 'No thanks'." - Henry Rollins
I'm getting mixed opinions here. On one hand it would take more regulation to enforce but on the other hand it would see that projects were built to completion and didn't become an eyesore.
I know some communities say that buildings larger than X square feet need a redevelopment plan for if they ever became vacant (there are numerous towns in Iowa that have one or two empty buildings from when Walmart moved to a larger location- and no other business needs or can afford that much space). Why isn't the same concept feasible with construction projects?
Ramsey, MN planned a huge town center (they are very exurban) with the city building a ramp and new city hall and a developer building the rest. Those were constructed and then the developer went bust. Now there is a beautiful parking ramp, grocery store, and city hall in the middle of a corn field. Very odd. If we asked them I have a feeling they would want to secure financing before they ever agreed to do this project again.
I have seen 1,000 acres of vegetation removed then nothing but erosion for 5 years. Such should have a bond. Half finished structures do eventially come around. We have property maintenance codes when there are severe issues.
If they don't have an active building permit, then they are in violation of the code for not having a completed structure and it either needs to be access controlled until finished or taken down via an open code violation case (unsafe structure).
On the ground, protecting the Cyburbia Shove since 2004.
We have several unfinished projects here in Boston that are tremendous blots on the environment and are going to need substantial mitigation even to button them up. Speaking as a resident, developers should have contingency plans. Especially if they start demolition or taking away sidewalks before they have all their financing in place.
Or else!
landscaping bonds if the site is graded or otherwise disturbed, just make sure the bond is high enough to cover the costs.
Sidewalks, even if on private property, are considered public improvements here. Therefore, we require escrows for the construction of the sidewalks. Any public improvements associated with the development should be esrowed prior to approval. Otherwise the City has the responsibility to install / repair / replace the infrastructure.
Much work remains to be done before we can announce our total failure to make any progress.
So lets make it more difficult and expensive to build anything in this country so nothing ever goes unfinished...yikes, I do not want to live in your jurisdiction. Do any of you realize that this would perpetuate a problem? A large part of the issue here is that land values were artificially increased due to greed from developers/bankers and over regulation by government. We are as much to blame for what is going on as is the Wall Street investors that want to make a large return on their investment.
We need to wake up people. We are going through one of the worst economic crisis in many decades that has had an inordinate impact on the construction industry. Many bad developers are out of business. Many really good developers are out of business. Many architects, engineers, landscape architects, surveyors, and planners are also out of business because they rely on putting things in the ground in order to have work. Regulation is not the answer to everything. I am not saying that we do not need regulations, but I am saying that every time we see something happen that is caused by macroeconomic shifts, the answer should not always be add more regulation. It was regulation that helped cause some of this mess to begin with (zoning codes, Cadillac infrastructure, overzealous fire marshals, etc) and we are a profession are failing to learn from it. Instead, we are blindly moving ahead like nothing is going on pretending that it is business as usual. That is not going to work.
Sorry...rant over (this will make me unpopular here)
Satellite City Enabler
I would usually agree with you 98% but this is not the same as regulating health care, the banking industry, etc. Imagine you were living in a condo or apartment across the street from a bunch of steel I-beams and mud pits; a project that has gone unfinished. Imagine you are an economic development official trying to attract new business to town and all they can think of in your town is half-done skyscrapers. Imagine you are the police and you are told to regularly patrol these potential crime scenes. It's not as cut and dry as "regulation is bad". Like you, I think Euclidean zoning, suburban street hierarchies, and typical post-war planning strategies have not worked, but to say it's over-reaching to require that projects are completed once they are started is not undue regulation.
What parent hasn't told their child to finish what they start?
What road trip begins without first making sure the gas tank is filled up all the way up?
Not with meSo lets make it more difficult and expensive to build anything in this country so nothing ever goes unfinished...yikes, I do not want to live in your jurisdiction. Do any of you realize that this would perpetuate a problem? A large part of the issue here is that land values were artificially increased due to greed from developers/bankers and over regulation by government. We are as much to blame for what is going on as is the Wall Street investors that want to make a large return on their investment.
We need to wake up people. We are going through one of the worst economic crisis in many decades that has had an inordinate impact on the construction industry. Many bad developers are out of business. Many really good developers are out of business. Many architects, engineers, landscape architects, surveyors, and planners are also out of business because they rely on putting things in the ground in order to have work. Regulation is not the answer to everything. I am not saying that we do not need regulations, but I am saying that every time we see something happen that is caused by macroeconomic shifts, the answer should not always be add more regulation. It was regulation that helped cause some of this mess to begin with (zoning codes, Cadillac infrastructure, overzealous fire marshals, etc) and we are a profession are failing to learn from it. Instead, we are blindly moving ahead like nothing is going on pretending that it is business as usual. That is not going to work.
Sorry...rant over (this will make me unpopular here)
Your are mostly correctWe have several multi-multi million dollar projects (big for us) that have been sitting for a long time, even before 2006 (recognized peak and beginning of the fall)
But on the other hand I think it is quite fitting to hold the crappy lender's feet to the FIRE now that they have ended up with the Frankenstein project they created
On the ground, protecting the Cyburbia Shove since 2004.
I agree with you as well. Requiring that the facility is safe (lender or developer responsibility) is of utmost importance. Health and safety are two of the primary functions of government.Not with me
Your are mostly correct
But on the other hand I think it is quite fitting to hold the crappy lender's feet to the FIRE now that they have ended up with the Frankenstein project they created
Do you know how large of a bond it would be to cover an entire development cost. Picture the cost of a bond for a multi-million dollar mixed use development (it is not unheard of for them to cost upwards of $40 Million to develop and construct) now think about the amount of additional security (above and beyond insurance/normal bonds/etc). Can you even phathom the additional costs that would be added to this project. Yes it is an eyesore when developments are not constructed, but as I said before, this is no reason to overreact and make it even more difficult to construct a building. This bond will destroy the ability to construct affordable housing (unless there is a government subsidy) and will just artificially increase the cost to the end user. The bond market for construction/landscape maintenance bonds/development securities is crashing. Have you even tried to get the money from these companies on this basic coverage in the last year? It is nearly impossible. I just do not see this as a practical or realistic option unless you would like all development to cease and desist in you area.
Satellite City Enabler
Here in Nashville we have hundreds of surface parking lots. We also have a 62 foot hole in the ground where a twin skyscraper development stopped after the hole was excavated. See www.aspcompany.com. The development is West End Summit. Now the hole is full of stagnant water and mosquitoes in the summer and the developer has been sued several times. He continues to work in other cities building projects. The city has complained and I have written letters. To no avail Mr. Palmer has not answered media questions in a long while.
The development was supposed to be condo's, office, retail and an Intercontinental Hotel. Nashville has somewhat been lucky. All we have is this hole and surface parking lots. We don't have any towers in mid-height that have been abandoned yet. Unfortunately with a city of 600,000 and an MSA of 1.5 million we do not have enough people to fill the condo's already built.
We are also in the bible belt. Not only do we have the anti-Obama protests and the like over everything from health care to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, we have groups that actually protest our developers for trying to improve the city. Urban living and urban renewal are considered "to liberal", and "too progressive" for Nashville and that is really shameful.
Mr. palmer not finishing his project on West End Avenue is just as shameful. You can see the massive hole on Google Earth. It is known as Lake Palmer by locals.
Looks to me like there should be some kind of court action the City can take besides complaining and letter writing. Isn't there any state level environmental action that could be applied?
City should be able to haul Mr. Palmer before some kind of magistrate or judge.
And do what? Scold him for losing his financiers; criticize him for macroeconomic conditions that forced him to stop his project. I am sure that when the project started he had financing and buy-in. Just because the economy tanked does not mean that the guy is a criminal. He is a bankrupt developer. As far as environmental rules and regulations, yes (getting back to my comments earlier), health and safety should be preserved so that someone does no get hurt, but this still does not make the guy a criminal.
Satellite City Enabler
If Mr. Palmer's family is from western TN, he is most likely a cousin of mine.
If, as I think you noted, his hole in the ground is breeding mosquitos, then he has created a public health hazard. Bankrupt or not he should be responsible for abating that.
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