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Thread: Detroit: Then, Now, The Future

  1. #126
    Cyburbian Linda_D's avatar
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    Planet Green will present Detroit in Overdrive, a three part miniseries, beginning on Thursday, August 4, 2011.

  2. #127
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Linda_D View post
    Planet Green will present Detroit in Overdrive, a three part miniseries, beginning on Thursday, August 4, 2011.
    What is Planet Green?

    In related news, Whole Foods has announced they are building a store to service the Wayne State/Medical Center area in the heart of Detroit. While the City itself has shrank, this is one of the areas where a lot of growth has happened over the last decade.
    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

  3. #128
    Cyburbian Linda_D's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by DetroitPlanner View post
    What is Planet Green?
    It's one of those myriad of cable TV channels the TWC offers -- similar to the History Channel, Nat Geo, HGTV, etc. I'm not sure if it's on other cable systems as well.

    Quote Originally posted by DetroitPlanner View post
    In related news, Whole Foods has announced they are building a store to service the Wayne State/Medical Center area in the heart of Detroit. While the City itself has shrank, this is one of the areas where a lot of growth has happened over the last decade.
    I think people who don't live in areas like Detroit or Buffalo or Cleveland don't understand that the population loss in these old Rust Belt cities is frequently very uneven. It's not the entire city that's emptying, it's primarily specific neighborhoods. In Buffalo, for example, while entire neighborhoods on the East Side have emptied out, the West Side and South Buffalo have remained mostly stable, and the Delaware District and North Buffalo have actually seen some population growth.

    I think chain supermarkets, especially higher end mainstream ones, can be catalysts for revitalizing commercial areas and their surrounding residential neighborhoods. The Wegmans that opened on the nearly moribund main commercial street through my old neighborhood seems to have done exactly that as the old storefronts along Amherst Street are starting to fill up with shops and restaurants. The Tops Supermarket built a few years ago on Jefferson Avenue seems to have encouraged similar commercial expansion in a very tough inner city area.

  4. #129
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Linda_D View post
    It's one of those myriad of cable TV channels the TWC offers -- similar to the History Channel, Nat Geo, HGTV, etc. I'm not sure if it's on other cable systems as well.
    That explains it. I've never had cable. You explaination makes about as much sense to me as the old Steve Martin skit... Teach your children the wrong word for everything. "May I mom the dog face in the banana patch?"

    Sometimes I wonder if I miss out by not having it, but judging by what I see when I have hotel rooms I think I'd rather have the extra $40-$60 a month in my savings account.

    The Whole Foods is probably a little late the the ball. There are already independant markets, fruit stores, bakeries in the immediate vicinity. There is also the Eastern Market, which has been around since before the Civil War not too far away. But what this does is give the area a center, and some credibility among those who think that you are only special if you have a chain that some find desirable (even though it is in fact the reverse, why want something everyone has, it don't make you unique).
    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

  5. #130
    Cyburbian Linda_D's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by DetroitPlanner View post
    That explains it. I've never had cable. You explaination makes about as much sense to me as the old Steve Martin skit... Teach your children the wrong word for everything. "May I mom the dog face in the banana patch?"

    Sometimes I wonder if I miss out by not having it, but judging by what I see when I have hotel rooms I think I'd rather have the extra $40-$60 a month in my savings account.
    90% of my TV viewing, except for NFL football (yes, there will be NFL football this year!!!) and NASCAR (are my redneck roots showing too much?) is cable channels or PBS. I watch very little network TV.

    Quote Originally posted by DetroitPlanner View post
    The Whole Foods is probably a little late the the ball. There are already independant markets, fruit stores, bakeries in the immediate vicinity. There is also the Eastern Market, which has been around since before the Civil War not too far away. But what this does is give the area a center, and some credibility among those who think that you are only special if you have a chain that some find desirable (even though it is in fact the reverse, why want something everyone has, it don't make you unique).
    Not necessarily. A lot of people assume that city people want to shop at these pricey little shops but the fact is that mainstream supermarkets are convenient and significantly cheaper, even the higher end ones. I suspect that many of the area residents, especially those with families, drive out to the 'burbs to grocery shop weekly. If you are tryinig to feed a family in the face of rising prices and stagnant income, supermarkets are where you go.

    BTW, I can't speak for Whole Foods, but the two chains in WNY, Tops and Wegmans, have been buying local produce, dairy, eggs, etc for years now, long before locavorism became popular.

  6. #131
    Cyburbian Planit's avatar
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    Nice article about Detroit, the Tigers, Ty Cobb and the old neighborhood...

    http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...y-cobb-detroit

    Enjoy
    "Whatever beer I'm drinking, is better than the one I'm not." DMLW
    "Budweiser sells a product they reflectively insist on calling beer." John Oliver

  7. #132
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Planit View post
    Nice article about Detroit, the Tigers, Ty Cobb and the old neighborhood...
    My mom grew up just a couple blocks N of that old abandoned liquor store turned into a Wayne State hangout. Never knew Cobb lived there. I just assumed he was in Corktown (home of Tiger Stadium)
    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

  8. #133
    Cyburbian fareastsider's avatar
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    I am annoyed by the reporting of growth in communities specifically growth rates. I often see a lot of emphasis on areas with high growth rates. Often it is a rural area which had a very low population to begin with and a few subdivisions can put it into high double digit territory (New Haven). Then a developed area with a large population with a greater actual number of new residents will be seen as stagnant (Sterling Heights). In addition other areas that are built out and very stable will have a small decrease and it is regarded as in decline (St Clair Shores). Macomb County was heralded as an area with a high growth rate but it really just took in more people from Wayne and Oakland Counties primarily. The word boom and growth are way to over emphasized IMHO

    Then of course you have cities cover large areas such as Indianapolis which is seen as growing but still faces the same population losses in its center as other land locked metros. They just happen to have a chunk of their periphery in their city limits. Phoenix is how many hundreds of square miles? Same idea in regards to major city growth but they don't mention major annexations.

    This type of analysis often skews the realities as there are other factors have to be considered to truly gauge the "health" of a cities population. I often read into these type of articles or analysis of an area that unless you have a large increase in population your area is not doing something right. Not to mention the elephant in the room that the growth at least in metro Detroit is just from another part of the region.

    In regards though to Detroit and the recent census the data for the region paints a bleak picture. It is my opinion though that such simplistic views of the population data determining which areas are attractive and sought after have to have a population increase especially a large one. Especially in a area where the whole is clearly loosing population and nobody is truely gaining. Comparing a regional map showing population growth and decline rates in metro Detroit is startling looking at the 2000 and 2010 data. In the 2010 data the population losses clearly spread far outside of Detroit proper into many census tracts across the region. Then there are the average income comparisons....yikes!

    I realize that most people would not get or care about this but it bothers me!

  9. #134
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

  10. #135
    Cyburbian WSU MUP Student's avatar
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    There was an interesting story yesterday on NPR's Marketplace about a photographer of abandoned homes in Detroit and a corresponding slideshow: http://marketplace.publicradio.org/d...odays-detroit/

    (I think the photographer's blog has been mentioned on here before but if not: http://www.100abandonedhouses.com/)
    "Where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost." - 1980 Republican presidential candidate Ronald Reagan

  11. #136
    Cyburbian Emeritus Bear Up North's avatar
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    Detroit Article On Urbanohpile Blog

    Interesting article about Detroit on The Urbanohpile blog. Good summation from author's point-of-view (a former Detroit resident and now a planner in Chicago). Side note: The author might be an occasional contributor on Cyburbia.....not sure.

    Bear

    http://www.urbanophile.com/category/...pete-saunders/
    Occupy Cyburbia!

  12. #137
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    Off-topic:
    Yeah, I'm a bit bummed that a Cyburbian decided to post a decent story to a blog that's yet another "link everywhere but to Cyburbia" venue.
    Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

  13. #138
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by pete-rock View post
    I wrote an article about Detroit a few years ago that never got published. In it, I said that Detroit is our nation's whipping boy. America needs Detroit to be dysfunctional. America needs Detroit to bear the burden of negative perceptions. If it wasn't going to be Detroit, it would've been some other city.
    Do you have this article still?
    Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

  14. #139
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    One commenter to the article wrote about how Detroit wasn't able to adjust to the decline of auto manufacturing because the skill set of its workforce, and the financial challenges of establishing new businesses where they could use them couldn't make that possible.

    I was in Rochester when Kodak declared bankruptcy. The community's collective response was a yawn. The bulk of Kodak's workforce was educated, skilled and affluent. Those working on the film manufacturing and developing lines were out of luck, but many who lost their jobs working in the marketing departments and labs of Kodak, Xerox and the like often founded spinoff companies where they could easily put their talents and experience to use. In Buffalo, when manufacturing began to decline in the 1970s, industrial workers didn't have the same opportunity. The ratio of skilled, educated workers -- engineers, metallurgists, and the like -- to laborers was much lower than for the "retro high tech" industries that drove Rochester's economy. Buffalo's laborers had a very limited skill set, and they didn't have the connections or massive capital needed to create spinoff companies of their own. A laborer operating a ladle crane couldn't just open up their own steel mill.

    Why mention geographic divides? In Buffalo, while there were certainly blue-collar and white-collar neighborhoods, more often than not they were mixed; the ladle crane operator would live next door to a teacher. Did Detroit have a more defined geographic divide between where the white collar and blue collar labor force lived? Would stamping plant press operators have lived mostly south of Eight Mile, and engineers north of the city line?
    Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

  15. #140
    Cyburbian Mud Princess's avatar
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    The current issue of National Geographic Traveler has a good article on Detroit. Yes, as a travel destination & place to explore. I found it very interesting. I have never been to Detroit.

    Here you go. You're welcome.

  16. #141
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    Grosse Pointe Park to Detroit.

    Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

  17. #142
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    Historic aerial photos of the Detroit metro: http://www.clas.wayne.edu/photos/ap_index.htm

    From the site:

    Through a generous donation from DTE, Wayne State is able to provide researchers with access to digitized copies of aerial photos of Detroit and area for the period 1949 to 1997. The collection consists of a series of low resoloution (72 dpi) and high resolution (600 dpi) pdf files. Use the links below to open a base map of a county for a given year and then use the links on the base map to open a photograph./quote]

    It's fascinating to see streets that were left fallow through the Depression and WWII fill up with houses, and revert back again to the wild 40 or 50 years later.
    Meanwhile:

    http://www.trulia.com/property/30521...troit-MI-48221 Pewabec Pottery. $100K. Damn. Move that house to a similar neighborhood in beleaguered Buffalo, and it would fetch $500K.
    Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

  18. #143
    Cyburbian mgk920's avatar
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    ^^
    Someday, someone is going to start to discover some of those houses....

    Mike

  19. #144
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    Someday, someone is going to start to discover some of those houses....
    Detroit is loaded with intact blocks of solid, well-designed houses. However, a house is just one part of a larger package of what today's homeowners increasingly want, and it's something Detroit doesn't have in great abundance: complete neighborhoods. I blame Detroit's wide commercial streets, for one thing.

    Take a Google Street View tour down any of the mile roads, and major north-south streets like Livernois and Telegraph, and even in areas where they're not blighted, they still lead a lot to be desired. They're wide, long, straight, out-of-scale corridors planned during that strange post-automotive pre-freeway era to move vehicles efficiently not just throughout the city, but the region. They may be commercial corridors, but they don't serve as focal points for a neighborhood. Instead, they serve as unintentional barriers, forming dividing lines between neighborhoods. Incomplete streets, incomplete neighborhoods.

    Here's a Google Street View shot of Woodward Avenue by Palmer Woods: http://g.co/maps/34c8m
    Warren Road in Warrendale, Detroit's last "white neighborhood"*: http://g.co/maps/bxd2d
    Jefferson Avenue at the south end of Indian Village: http://g.co/maps/9ybsg
    Mack Avenue at the north end of Indian Village: http://g.co/maps/gzpzr
    Woodward Avenue next to Boston-Edison: http://g.co/maps/ghfe6

    When I look in neighborhoods in Buffalo outside of the West Side, the streetscape along major streets may not be pretty, but they function better as neighborhood centers. Part of it is the scale; part of it the presence of two-story buildings, part of it the mix of commercial and residential uses.

    Here's Hertel Avenue, the commercial core of Buffalo's North Park neighborhood, and a wide street by Buffalo standards: http://g.co/maps/zdnps
    Bailey Avenue in Kensington, the neighborhood I grew up in. It's now considered "ghetto", but it seems more human-scaled than any equivalent neighborhood in Detroit: http://g.co/maps/durtf
    A small commercial node on Parkside Avenue, the core of the Parkside neighborhood: http://g.co/maps/q947s
    Amherst Street in the up-and-coming Black Rock neighborhood: http://g.co/maps/ecvr4

    West Side? One of the "nodes" along Elmwood Avenue in Elmwood Village: http://g.co/maps/d3fp9. And another: http://g.co/maps/qr9mw. And another: http://g.co/maps/drb4r. And another: http://g.co/maps/wefpj. Corner of Elmwood Avenue and Allen Street in Allentown: http://g.co/maps/ghr6x.

    Major commercial streets in Hamtramck like Joseph Campau and Caniff have the same sense of scale as those in Buffalo, and the enclave remains quite vibrant. Adjacent to Highland Park? Big 'ol Woodward.



    * It might be un-PC to point out Warrrendale or Parkland. I've always been fascinated with the concept of holdouts, though. In Detroit, unlike Cleveland or Buffalo, there is such a sharp demographic shift that takes place at the city's municipal boundaries, and it always struck me as odd. Why didn't blacks in Detroit move beyond the city limits, except for Southfield? In Cleveland, even with a similar history regarding racial and ethnic conflict as Detroit, the idea of African-Americans in the suburbs is taken for granted. In Buffalo, there are sharp divides between black and white in some places, but those dividing lines are formed by physical barriers. such as a wealthy neighborhood or a wall of factories and railroad yards.
    Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

  20. #145
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dan View post
    * It might be un-PC to point out Warrrendale or Parkland. I've always been fascinated with the concept of holdouts, though. In Detroit, unlike Cleveland or Buffalo, there is such a sharp demographic shift that takes place at the city's municipal boundaries, and it always struck me as odd. Why didn't blacks in Detroit move beyond the city limits, except for Southfield? In Cleveland, even with a similar history regarding racial and ethnic conflict as Detroit, the idea of African-Americans in the suburbs is taken for granted. In Buffalo, there are sharp divides between black and white in some places, but those dividing lines are formed by physical barriers. such as a wealthy neighborhood or a wall of factories and railroad yards.
    Unfortunately Warrendale/Parkland is no longer a desirable neighborhood regardless of race. This is the area I moved out of because I kept getting broken into, and I was having to deal with too many drug dealers and pimps. Eventually you just say screw it. The drug dealers and pimps were there because the suburbanites percieved it to be a safe place to be. THis was also an area to get a stonghold by the landlords just before the financial crisis hit, leaving a lot of foreclosures to get picked over by the scrapplers. It also became a dumping ground for nearby suburbanites because bulk pickup days were reduced when the local budgets got tight.

    African americans are a lot more dispersed and integrated into the region than they used to be. Southfield was and still is not a cheap place to live. Most black folks who moved there had a lot of income. This suburb is now losing favor to others where the property taxes are much lower.
    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

  21. #146

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    Quote Originally posted by Dan View post
    Off-topic:
    Yeah, I'm a bit bummed that a Cyburbian decided to post a decent story to a blog that's yet another "link everywhere but to Cyburbia" venue.
    Yup, I am the author of that article on another "link everywhere but to Cyburbia" venue, as you said. I honestly did not mean any disrespect at all; I joined here a loooong time ago and I've maintained my membership but go through long periods of not visiting here. Dan, I appreciate the comments you made comparing Detroit to Buffalo.

    And I do still have that "Detroit as whipping boy" article. I'd be happy to show it off somewhere.

  22. #147
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

  23. #148
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    Regarding the earlier discussion of the involvement of Kresge in the current planning process, I just met with some of the players from the Detroit Works side of things. From my understanding the Detroit Works project is covering the community engagement and data collection side of things, and they send the data to the "technical" planners supplied by Kresge who do the actual planning. They present together to the steering community who ultimately make the calls. Seems to be less friction than one would expect.

  24. #149
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    Manufacturing is not Dead

    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  25. #150
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    This is awesome! How come I've never seen this????
    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

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