Detroit: Then, Now, The Future

[Dan]

This scene just seems so odd to my eyes - a divided highway filled with old 1920s cars. I can't reconcile the scene of what looks to be a modern road, filled with herpy-derpy bouncy cars randomly weaving on the unmarked pavement, and the sounds of gurgling flathead engines and ahooga horns, like some Harold Lloyd movie

You know, something like this.



Anyhow ...



It goes on, and on, and on ...

[mgk920]

I've also seen early plans that took those below ground trains over into Windsor ON, imagine how freaked out the border guards would be today. I swear they have cut this City in half over paranoia. We still have a lot of cross border traffic, but I can't see how commuters put up with that every day.

Yea, until the mid 1920s, there were essentially no controls at all along either of the USA's land borders and crossing between Canada and the USA was much like crossing borders in modern-day 'Schengen' Europe. The 18th Amendment changed that all.



Mike

[DetroitPlanner]

Yea, until the mid 1920s, there were essentially no controls at all along either of the USA's land borders and crossing between Canada and the USA was much like crossing borders in modern-day 'Schengen' Europe. The 18th Amendment changed that all.



Mike

I grew up with a lot of people whose grandfathers claimed to have run booze during those years! I would have thought the Purple Gang would have had em slaughtered!

The Canadian Side of the River has a lot of major distilleries (Seagrams, Canadian Club) even still.

[WSU MUP Student]

Anyhow ...



It goes on, and on, and on ...

Hey, I know that spot!



We looked at a house in that neighborhood a few years ago and two more houses just to the south and east of that spot (off to the right hand side of the photo). It's weird seeing the area not all built out - the oldest aerials that we have in our office are from 1963 and everything in that area is totally built out by then.

[CanadaJimmy]

I don't have a lot to add to the thread - other than it's been a very interesting read, the 100abandonedhouses.com website was very interesting, and I'm definitely watching the "Requim for Detroit" documentary later!

That super highway plan is very cool - one of those pieces of design you look at and just get excited about because of the progression it represents. I also have a random question regarding the above image - those multiple crescent shaped roads inside each other - is there an urban planning term for that design? I've seen it done in one older area of town near me and only there and it works really well to bring more interest to the grid.

[Wannaplan?]

I've been thinking of the Detroit bankruptcy quite a bit lately, and my mind circles around this question - what if it woks? What if in 10 years the City is growing and it becomes hip and attractive, like Pittsburgh was 20 years ago? There are so many people in this state who have given up on the City, it almost feels like that no matter what happens in Detroit, the City will always be a decrepit hole. That's the conventional wisdom, it seems. But what if that's all wrong? Will we know what to do with Detroit? Will we stop looking back at the post-war "glory days" and actually have a realistic view of the City?

[jsk1983]

^^
I agree that Woodward, as well as some of Detroit's other major 'radial' streets, could stand to be narrowed, perhaps down to two lanes in each direction - they were their era's (1920s/1930s) versions of the mid to late 20th century freeways, which supplanted those streets, and to simply maintain all of that pavement for so little traffic is absurd.

Mike

Of course that would involve putting in new curbs, moving the street lights and probably a few other things. I think just paving over what is already there is cheaper in the short run. And then what do you do with the land where the road was removed? Really wide sidewalks, grass that probably wont be maintained?

[DetroitPlanner]

^^
I agree that Woodward, as well as some of Detroit's other major 'radial' streets, could stand to be narrowed, perhaps down to two lanes in each direction - they were their era's (1920s/1930s) versions of the mid to late 20th century freeways, which supplanted those streets, and to simply maintain all of that pavement for so little traffic is absurd.

Mike

Not every street is too wide though many are. We looked at peak hour and found that this is true throughout the region. In many cases we are recommending road diets, bike lanes or rain gardens (being an older City we still have some CSO issues). The issue we are facing is taking this infrastructure and making it an asset. We also need to be cognizant that this area still has to deal with big trucks and narrowing may not be a good idea. We have more than our share of trucks for two reasons: we are still very much a manufacturing center (in fact our regional GDP is still as large as the UK's!) and that we are a very important trade node for N America (over $1 billion in commerce flows over the bridge to Canada in Detroit everyday).

Now you may wonder how the heck we can be in such bad shape if we have all of these assets? We used to have a lot more. It used to take tens of thousands of people to work in an auto factory, now the same production can be done by less than 2,000 due to automation. We may sell 15 million cars this year, but the Detroit area only accounts for about ten percent of those sales where in the past it accounted for closer to fifty percent or more.

[CanadaJimmy]

Not every street is too wide though many are. We looked at peak hour and found that this is true throughout the region. In many cases we are recommending road diets, bike lanes or rain gardens (being an older City we still have some CSO issues). The issue we are facing is taking this infrastructure and making it an asset.

I like the idea of dedicated separated bike lanes, more and more cities are expanding with that idea, in addition to daily affordable bike rentals. All the abandoned houses with street frontage could also be replaced with pleasant outdoor malls that are within cycling distance of residential property, provided there are enough people around willing to go there.

We also need to be cognizant that this area still has to deal with big trucks and narrowing may not be a good idea. We have more than our share of trucks for two reasons: we are still very much a manufacturing center (in fact our regional GDP is still as large as the UK's!) and that we are a very important trade node for N America (over $1 billion in commerce flows over the bridge to Canada in Detroit everyday).

Surely these trucks would be limited as to what streets they use, or be permitted to use?

Now you may wonder how the heck we can be in such bad shape if we have all of these assets?

I think the reason why narrowing was suggested is because the maintenance of these roads - even though they are valuable - sounds like a huge burden on the city budget. It is probably costing a lot more money than it needs to since a lot of these areas are now abandoned. Additionally, continuing on from the truck traffic issue, limiting the roads trucks are allowed to use would limit the wear and tear to those specific routes, which may also help reduce city expenditure (if something like that isn't already in place).

[DetroitPlanner]

I like the idea of dedicated separated bike lanes, more and more cities are expanding with that idea, in addition to daily affordable bike rentals. All the abandoned houses with street frontage could also be replaced with pleasant outdoor malls that are within cycling distance of residential property, provided there are enough people around willing to go there.


Surely these trucks would be limited as to what streets they use, or be permitted to use?


I think the reason why narrowing was suggested is because the maintenance of these roads - even though they are valuable - sounds like a huge burden on the city budget. It is probably costing a lot more money than it needs to since a lot of these areas are now abandoned. Additionally, continuing on from the truck traffic issue, limiting the roads trucks are allowed to use would limit the wear and tear to those specific routes, which may also help reduce city expenditure (if something like that isn't already in place).

A. Not every parcel in Detroit is abandoned. The most common thing you will see are empty lots or abandoned buildings sticking out like missing teeth. I doubt that you could get enough green space to make this possible. One thing that is happening though is the use of old rail corridors for biking. The Dequindre Cut is one of the more successful projects and it is currently being expanded to a city-wide system. One thing that is has become obvious is that bike travel is a lower cost alternative to car ownership due to the exorbitant price of car insurance (I have heard stories of people with few violations paying over $5k per year). Add to this the City/Region has woefully underfunded transit systems and cannot raise the dollars needed for Operating making bike travel almost a necessity.

B. Yes we have truck routes, but in general we have a lot more truck routes than most places as dictated by the amount of land devoted to industrial space is unusually large.

C. As mentioned previously, we just can't take out every road. That too is a major expense. What you are finding in some places is a lot of deferred maintenance. Eventually some of these roads may return to gravel, but there are still homes that need access.

[Dan]

A question for the Detroit/SE Michigan crowd:

Buffalo's urbanatti/armchair planner crowd generally have a passionate hatred for chain businesses. National chains are very slow in expandin to the region, and they're usually met with little enthusiasm. Panera Bread recently opened a location in the heart of the gentrifying Elmwood Village neighborhood, and the buzz online was largely negative.

What about Detroit? From what I've seen, it seems like there's not the same animosity towards chains, and folks there get quite excited when they locate in the city; Whole Foods, Buffalo Wild Wings, etc.

[WSU MUP Student]

A question for the Detroit/SE Michigan crowd:

Buffalo's urbanatti/armchair planner crowd generally have a passionate hatred for chain businesses. National chains are very slow in expandin to the region, and they're usually met with little enthusiasm. Panera Bread recently opened a location in the heart of the gentrifying Elmwood Village neighborhood, and the buzz online was largely negative.

What about Detroit? From what I've seen, it seems like there's not the same animosity towards chains, and folks there get quite excited when they locate in the city; Whole Foods, Buffalo Wild Wings, etc.

I used to frequent a Detroit-centric message board that had a lot of armchair planners and Whole Foods was talked about quite frequently, along with Trader Joe's, as being absolutely needed in the city. However, the biggest one that they always seemed to be clamoring for was a Cheesecake Factory. Somehow, it is an absolutely travesty that Detroit was the only major American city without a Cheesecake Factory. And we are probably about the only major MSA in the country without a Cheesecake Factory anywhere in the region.

Well... all that will change come next Tuesday when a Cheesecake Factory finally opens up just off of Grand River Avenue!!!................and 12 Mile Road in Novi. (I never knew this until it was announced that a Cheesecake Factory was actually coming but the founders are originally from Detroit and got their start in the dessert business here)

FWIW, while I wouldn't want a downtown absolutely full of national chains, I can definitely see their importance when marketing a city (to tourists, conventioneers, other firms, and residents) and feel that the nearly complete lack of full service chain restaurants downtown and in the city in general is not a good thing by any measure.

[btrage]

A question for the Detroit/SE Michigan crowd:

Buffalo's urbanatti/armchair planner crowd generally have a passionate hatred for chain businesses. National chains are very slow in expandin to the region, and they're usually met with little enthusiasm. Panera Bread recently opened a location in the heart of the gentrifying Elmwood Village neighborhood, and the buzz online was largely negative.

What about Detroit? From what I've seen, it seems like there's not the same animosity towards chains, and folks there get quite excited when they locate in the city; Whole Foods, Buffalo Wild Wings, etc.

I would agree that there is not that same animosity. Maybe it has to do with the degree to which sprawl occurred in SE Michigan. Sprawl = chain restaurants. Lots of sprawl = lots of chain restaurants.

The City went crazy with excitement when Bdubs opened up their downtown location last year. FWIW, it's the largest Buffalo Wild Wings in the country, at least when it opened.

http://www.mlive.com/entertainment/d..._river_default