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Thread: Veterans traitors?

  1. #1
    Cyburbian Tom R's avatar
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    Veterans traitors?

    This guy, a State Representative in a community near Pittsburgh has stated that a group of veterans are traitors for promoting the issue of global warming. Read the rest of the stuff he has said. Unbelieveable!
    http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09294/1007086-113.stm
    WALSTIB

  2. #2
    Cyburbian WSU MUP Student's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Tom R View post
    This guy, a State Representative in a community near Pittsburgh has stated that a group of veterans are traitors for promoting the issue of global warming. Read the rest of the stuff he has said. Unbelieveable!
    http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09294/1007086-113.stm
    I guess I'm a veteran and a traitor.


    Judging by some of the other comments he made (toward the end of the article), this is the type of guy that would motivate me to make a run for his office if I lived in his district. Maybe I should carpetbag my way over to Pennsylvania?
    "Where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost." - 1980 Republican presidential candidate Ronald Reagan

  3. #3
    Cyburbian ofos's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by WSU MUP Student View post
    I guess I'm a veteran and a traitor.
    Same here. Think of it this way though. If the U.S. House represents the best and brightest of the nation and it's got more than a share of idiots who were elected in their state's federal districts...well, you see where I'm going with state representatives. Still think you want to move to the district with the people who elected him?
    “Death comes when memories of the past exceed the vision for the future.”

  4. #4
    Cyburbian Linda_D's avatar
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    A-holes like this Metcalf guy are why I could never live in PA. NY has more than its share of dumbarsed pols, but the ones in PA always make ours look like certifiable geniuses. There's a reason that Western PA is oftentimes referred to as "Pennsyltucky".

  5. #5
    Cyburbian Duke Of Dystopia's avatar
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    The interesting thing about our military, has always been that it has had the power to sieze control of the country at any time it felt like it. The amazing thing, is that it has never tried to do so. Our military institutions have been on the cutting edge of conflict since about 1775. We can credit the first submersible vehicle attack, first successful submarine attack, the crew served machinegun, and flying artillery units (fast moving and accurate) among many others. Even during the dark days of the Civil War, both army's behaved the same. Subservient to the political will of the people and the politicians. That is something few other nations can claim.

    The GOP is loosing control of itself. It sees the military as a national bastion of conservativism. For all the wrong reasons. The men and women that make up the services all have individual views, but work to operate as a communal whole. Despite the one goal mentality, individual abilities, skills, and views add to the success of the mission.

    This is what makes the remarks of this individual so idiotic. The swift boat vets are still vets. John Kerry is still a vet as is John McCain. These vets have their viewpoint and are welcome to it. I am sure there is a group of vets that think the opposite. He needs to deal with it rather than throw ignorant insults.
    I can't deliver UTOPIA, but I can create a HELL for you to LIVE in :)DoD:(

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    Cyburbian hilldweller's avatar
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    Somewhere the DNC has already begun plotting this guy's downfall..

  7. #7
    Cyburbian Rygor's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by hilldweller View post
    Somewhere the DNC has already begun plotting this guy's downfall..
    No need. It seems he's already plotting his own.
    "When life gives you lemons, just say 'No thanks'." - Henry Rollins

  8. #8
    Cyburbian Tom R's avatar
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    vets

    After the way Vietnam vets were treated, you would think that everybody would have learned. I put this guy right up there with those so called christians who protest at veteran funerals because god is punishing the US because of gays.
    WALSTIB

  9. #9
    Cyburbian TexanOkie's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Linda_D View post
    There's a reason that Western PA is oftentimes referred to as "Pennsyltucky".
    Hey, there's no need to insult the great Commonwealth of Kentucky in this way!

  10. #10
    Cyburbian wahday's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by TexanOkie View post
    Hey, there's no need to insult the great Commonwealth of Kentucky in this way!
    I was going to say the same thing about the great Commonwealth of Pennsylvania!

    I grew up in PA and we do have our share of extreme folks. For guys like Metcalf, I think the motivation is less about what he says than in attracting attention - the "there's no such thing as bad publicity" strategy. I grew up in the eastern part of the state which, when I came up, was still largely Republican, but more urbanized than the west where there are more isolated smaller towns, more agriculture, and more people suffering from endemic poverty. In my recent trip to areas outside of Pittsburgh (Dawson, Belle Vernon, Connellsville, etc) the place was majorly depressed - no industry, lots of vacant buildings, lots of people out of work. And this is not just the result of recent economic problems - its been going on for a long time and it has a lot of people bitter and angry about their lot in life. Being a bit stuck in an older mindset of industrialization, I can see how the "drill baby drill" attitude would be met favorably - the perception being that this is a strategy that could put people with industrial skills to work now (which is actually not true given the decade-long development oil companies would be looking at to initiate production).

    The irony is that Pittsburgh is poised to be potential leader in clean energy and building technologies and, if managed right, this could mean a lot of highly skilled positions for local people. But if you don't accept global warming is happening, I guess that does not matter...
    The purpose of life is a life of purpose

  11. #11
    Quote Originally posted by Duke of Dystopia
    The GOP is loosing control of itself. It sees the military as a national bastion of conservativism. For all the wrong reasons. The men and women that make up the services all have individual views, but work to operate as a communal whole. Despite the one goal mentality, individual abilities, skills, and views add to the success of the mission.

    This is what makes the remarks of this individual so idiotic. The swift boat vets are still vets. John Kerry is still a vet as is John McCain. These vets have their viewpoint and are welcome to it. I am sure there is a group of vets that think the opposite. He needs to deal with it rather than throw ignorant insults.

    Exactly! Though the military, by its very nature, requires a solid, unified front when it comes to accomplishing goals, winning wars, etc. that still doesn't change the fact that it is comprised of people with different ideas and different viewpoints about different issues, including military issues.

    With that being said, I thought about starting a thread on global warming and the "anti-global warming" movement, particularly as it relates to planning.

    My cousin has a degree in metereology and works for the National Weather Service. He has said that he, along with the vast majority of metereologists, atmospheric scientists, climatologists, etc. who work for the NWS do NOT believe in man-made global warming, and that the Earth has actually been in a period of global cooling since 2001 (though it did warm during the 1970s, 80s, and 90s). I've seen prominent professionals in the field debate on CNN about global warming, and quite frankly many (if not most) of the people purporting the theory seem to be politicians, activists, environmentalists, as opposed to actual scientists who have studied weather and climate for 20, 30, 40 years. Those people, by and large according to my cousin, refute the theory that any global warming that has taken place is a result of human activity.

    He also says that this is the reason why he hates the Weather Channel, because they perpetuate the man-made global warming theory in stark contrast to what most members of the National Weather Service actually believe.

    Definitely something to think about, especially as planners (or aspiring planners in my case). In almost all of the conferences i've attended, dealing with climate change has been a hot topic. But what if it's not real, or at the very least, what if there's nothing that can be done about it? Are we just wasting our time? What do professionals have to say about this, as opposed to some doofus politician like Al Gore?


    Quote Originally posted by TexanOkie View post
    Hey, there's no need to insult the great Commonwealth of Kentucky in this way!

    I thought it was called "Pennsylbama". At least that's what I've heard.

  12. #12
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Jazzman View post
    Exactly! Though the military, by its very nature, requires a solid, unified front when it comes to accomplishing goals, winning wars, etc. that still doesn't change the fact that it is comprised of people with different ideas and different viewpoints about different issues, including military issues.

    With that being said, I thought about starting a thread on global warming and the "anti-global warming" movement, particularly as it relates to planning.

    My cousin has a degree in metereology and works for the National Weather Service. He has said that he, along with the vast majority of metereologists, atmospheric scientists, climatologists, etc. who work for the NWS do NOT believe in man-made global warming, and that the Earth has actually been in a period of global cooling since 2001 (though it did warm during the 1970s, 80s, and 90s). I've seen prominent professionals in the field debate on CNN about global warming, and quite frankly many (if not most) of the people purporting the theory seem to be politicians, activists, environmentalists, as opposed to actual scientists who have studied weather and climate for 20, 30, 40 years. Those people, by and large according to my cousin, refute the theory that any global warming that has taken place is a result of human activity.

    He also says that this is the reason why he hates the Weather Channel, because they perpetuate the man-made global warming theory in stark contrast to what most members of the National Weather Service actually believe.

    Definitely something to think about, especially as planners (or aspiring planners in my case). In almost all of the conferences i've attended, dealing with climate change has been a hot topic. But what if it's not real, or at the very least, what if there's nothing that can be done about it? Are we just wasting our time? What do professionals have to say about this, as opposed to some doofus politician like Al Gore?

    .
    Interesting. My understanding is that the vast majority of climatologists strongly believe in the theory of mans contribution to global warming. I have heard occasional professionals attempt to refute the theory and claim that most of their co-workers agree with them- but then usually those same co-workers come out and say that guy/girl is crazy.

    I guess the question I ask is why would there be a conspiracy to promote man-caused global warming? To what end? And why do I constantly read about how 95% (or some number) of all climatologists who have studied this for decades support the theory, if it's untrue? I have to wonder whether your cousin is making this up - because that's certainly not what I have read about the weather service and atmospheric scientists and climatologists. Perhaps meterologists are a different breed.
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  13. #13
    Cyburbian Tom R's avatar
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    vets

    We may roast or freeze. I don't really care. But those guys who served have the same first amendment rights to free speech as anyone in this country, and to call them traitors because they express a viewpoint contrary to what this guy thinks sucks the big one.
    WALSTIB

  14. #14
    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner View post
    Interesting. My understanding is that the vast majority of climatologists strongly believe in the theory of mans contribution to global warming. I have heard occasional professionals attempt to refute the theory and claim that most of their co-workers agree with them- but then usually those same co-workers come out and say that guy/girl is crazy.

    I guess the question I ask is why would there be a conspiracy to promote man-caused global warming? To what end? And why do I constantly read about how 95% (or some number) of all climatologists who have studied this for decades support the theory, if it's untrue? I have to wonder whether your cousin is making this up - because that's certainly not what I have read about the weather service and atmospheric scientists and climatologists. Perhaps meterologists are a different breed.

    Perhaps so. He's not the only one who's said this, as I mentioned before I've seen metereologists, credible ones, mind you refute the theory. But I don't want to throw my support behind one theory or the other because that is certainly not my field of expertise.

    The anti-man made global warming camp basically says that the reason why global warming is so hot (even though it is, in their opinion, untrue) is for political and economic reasons. Politically it's popular because environmentalists want to believe it as it helps get people behind their general goals and this turns into financial support. Basically this is all (allegedly) one big conspiracy theory spearheaded by the likes of Al Gore and other assorted tree huggers in Washington.

    But who knows. And I agree with Tom R - everyone has the right to say what they want, no matter how idiotic it may be.

  15. #15
    Cyburbian Cardinal's avatar
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    In a world where a draft-dodger who went AWOL from the air reserve can make an issue of the war record of a veteran who volunteered for two tours in Vietnam, nobody should be surprised. And I guess if you disagree with me you are not a true American.
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  16. #16
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Well the guy makes a good point

    Quote Originally posted by Crazy State representative
    "Remember Benedict Arnold before giving credibility to a veteran who uses their service as a means to promote a leftist agenda. Drill Baby Drill!!!"
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

  17. #17
    Cyburbian Tom R's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner View post
    Well the guy makes a good point
    OK, tell me how Benedict Arnold's effort to give up West Point to the British relates to some veterans expressing their right of free speech regarding climate change?
    WALSTIB

  18. #18
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Tom R View post
    OK, tell me how Benedict Arnold's effort to give up West Point to the British relates to some veterans expressing their right of free speech regarding climate change?
    How can you argue with drill baby drill!!




    (I guess I should have used the as I was being facetious)
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

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    Cyburbian Duke Of Dystopia's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Tom R View post
    OK, tell me how Benedict Arnold's effort to give up West Point to the British relates to some veterans expressing their right of free speech regarding climate change?
    The point was that your military record has nothing to do with your stance on any particular political issue or any other cause you may have. Lee Harvey Oswald was an ex-marine, Benedict Arnold was an accomplished general from the wrong side of the tracks, Kerry got pounded for political protest, McCane finally succumbed to torture. The gist is that in no instance does the fact you serve mean you can't hold an opinion from any viewpoint.
    I can't deliver UTOPIA, but I can create a HELL for you to LIVE in :)DoD:(

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    Cyburbian Tom R's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner View post
    How can you argue with drill baby drill!!




    (I guess I should have used the as I was being facetious)
    OK, you're forgiven, but don't let it happen again!
    WALSTIB

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    Cyburbian TexanOkie's avatar
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    Off-topic:
    Quote Originally posted by Cardinal View post
    In a world where a draft-dodger who went AWOL from the air reserve can make an issue of the war record of a veteran who volunteered for two tours in Vietnam, nobody should be surprised. And I guess if you disagree with me you are not a true American.
    Okay, Dan Rather... you've had your fun...

  22. #22
    Cyburbian Duke Of Dystopia's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by TexanOkie View post
    Off-topic:


    Okay, Dan Rather... you've had your fun...
    No, I think he rather summed it up nicely (no pun intended ).

    However, I often feel that what people are saying does not actually fit well with the way people articulate what they want to say. Since democracy is built on the idea that people know how to make choices for themselves, then their vote must include the sum negatives and positives of their belief. Yet, when we hear certain people state why they are for or against certain things, we scratch our heads in wonder. Either they are not articulating real well, or our democracy is doomed. I personally think they are not articulating well.

    This is why I think Bush got a pass for being AWOL from the air national guard and Kerry got successfully pounded. The logic couldn't be articulated. Similarly, nothing was going to put an ex member of the military in the oval office this last election solely upon that basis. Ex military men simply are not always automatically good at civilian leadership or taking chances. I am not sure I am articulating it well, but that is my guess. There are many other examples one could run out.
    I can't deliver UTOPIA, but I can create a HELL for you to LIVE in :)DoD:(

  23. #23
    Cyburbian
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    Quote Originally posted by Linda_D View post
    A-holes like this Metcalf guy are why I could never live in PA. NY has more than its share of dumbarsed pols, but the ones in PA always make ours look like certifiable geniuses. There's a reason that Western PA is oftentimes referred to as "Pennsyltucky".
    I'm fortunate in that I'm about ten miles far enough west that this moron does not represent me, but unfortunate in that I'm about ten miles too far west to vote against him either. In the meantime, how about knocking it off with labelling the entire state based on this guy's (or the entire legislature's), performance? To paraphrase something from the bible that makes sense regardless of the context, "Let he/she whose congresscritter is without sin, cast the first stone."
    Proudly spending today building the dilapidated housing stock of the 22nd century.

  24. #24
    Cyburbian Tom R's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Duke Of Dystopia View post
    The point was that your military record has nothing to do with your stance on any particular political issue or any other cause you may have.
    I don't see that at all. Did this guy say that all people who support the idea of global warming are traitors? He may thin so but he didn't say it. A person's military experience often does affect one's political stance. Just look at the American Legion, VFW or even the VVA. All reputed to be conservative of leaning that way. One cannot deny the vet's experience just as one cannot dent a person's college years. And I'd bet that he use his veteran status in his run for office. The point this idiot made was comparing the most famous American traitor to a bunch of vets who happen to be expressing an opinion that he doesn't agree with. Disagree with these people, fine, but don't call them traitors.
    WALSTIB

  25. #25
    Cyburbian Duke Of Dystopia's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Tom R View post
    I don't see that at all. Did this guy say that all people who support the idea of global warming are traitors? He may thin so but he didn't say it. A person's military experience often does affect one's political stance. Just look at the American Legion, VFW or even the VVA. All reputed to be conservative of leaning that way. One cannot deny the vet's experience just as one cannot dent a person's college years. And I'd bet that he use his veteran status in his run for office. The point this idiot made was comparing the most famous American traitor to a bunch of vets who happen to be expressing an opinion that he doesn't agree with. Disagree with these people, fine, but don't call them traitors.
    Easy Tom R. I was saying that in support of Imaplanner's statement you seemed to have missed. It's all good.

    I would never say that a persons time in the service should be denied or downplayed. I will go so far as to say that vets and especially their organizations are some of the most whiny special interest groups out there. As a vet, the whiny crap has kept me from joining the AL or the VFW.

    Every military is conservative by nature, and a weird beast. People need to be brought into the organization and have the I striped out of them and then replaced with a WE. To do that takes years, and the military journals are rife with discussions on how to do that and what happens to the organization if it is not done successfully.

    The WE is communistic and centrally commanded from the top. Any part of the WE must take orders to do something that potentially means annihilation weather it is to attack or be the last part of the WE out. These are not civilian values. They are not political values. The order to put part of the WE into harms way becomes a conservative lean that does not like change, or experiment on what has been done in the past. Tradition is born and clung to.
    I can't deliver UTOPIA, but I can create a HELL for you to LIVE in :)DoD:(

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