Urban planning community

+ Reply to thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 38

Thread: Where are regional malls, super regional malls, and lifestyle centers built?

  1. #1
    BANNED
    Registered
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Templeton, Ca
    Posts
    417

    Where are regional malls, super regional malls, and lifestyle centers built?

    Where are regional malls, super regional malls, and lifestyle centers built?

    What determines the site selection for cities, location in cities, and tenets in the malls?

    For cities, I am going to guess who has a 150,000 population within a 5-15 mile radius according to ICSC definition. I heard my urban planning major friend that they also go in communities with higher population density to get more car traffic.

    For site selection I am going to guess for old malls, they were usually found in central business districts. Now, I am guessing in cheap land near a freeway.

    I am guessing tenets are determined by demographics. The income in the area, and the population in the area.

  2. #2
    Cyburbian Cardinal's avatar
    Registered
    Aug 2001
    Location
    The Cheese State
    Posts
    9,920
    Criteria vary extensively. Most malls, however, are going to be found along the major arterial (interstate) highways to provide the greatest accessibility to the region. Population size and density, income and demographics, competition, alnd availability, and other factors all go into the decision. We were building malls on the outskirts of cities in the 1950's, which are now at the center of what we call inner-ring suburbs. As for downtown malls, there are relatively few, and only a handful that might be called successful.
    Anyone want to adopt a dog?

  3. #3
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
    Registered
    Mar 1996
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    14,547
    Blog entries
    3
    What Cardinal wrote. He knows his stuff.

    Lifestyle centers tend to be built in upper-middle class suburban areas, where there is a large number and percentage of higher households (often considered US$75,000 to $100,000 and up) within a certain radius (usually 3-5 miles/5-8 kilometers) of the site. Areas that are solidly move-up middle class to high income are preferred, for example, much of Oakland County, Michigan; the Heights/Chagrin Valley eastern suburbs of Cleveland; Johnson County, Kansas; areas west of the Mopac Expressway in Austin; and the southern and southeastern suburbs of Denver. Proximity to an Interstate or limited access highway isn't as critical for lifestyle centers as for regional malls. Even though lifestyle centers aren't enclosed, weather isn't a factor.

    Each developer has their own criteria, of course. I've seen development following a lifestyle center model (pedestrian-oriented "Main Street" recreation in more modest communities; e.g. Gresham Station in Gresham, Oregon.
    Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

  4. #4
    BANNED
    Registered
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Templeton, Ca
    Posts
    417
    What about the reguirement for Dillards? I see Sears and JCPenney's everywhere. So why don't downtown malls do well?

  5. #5
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
    Registered
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Where the weak are killed and eaten.
    Posts
    6,183
    There are no requirements for building stores! One size does not fit all. The market drives this. Downtown malls do well in areas that support that type of activity. These include San Diego, Toronto, and Chicago. There are probably several other examples that I have yet to experience (possibly Boston's Copley Place, and the Nordstrom's Mall in San Fran). Some downtowns do not support malls at all because individual stores are successful enough. An example of this is Pittburgh. In most of the US however, they do not do well because the population has moved away from central cities, particularly the population with disposable income.

    In general Sears will locate in areas where its products will sell best. It can deviate somewhat from this. For example, one of Sear's strongest categories are tools and large appliances. You don't see many folks bringing refrigerators home with them on the bus, so they locate these stores where they make the most sense and folks can use parcel pick-up. Most downtown malls are merchandised very differently than suburban ones, with more square footage going for things such as small package items, neccessities, or restraunts.
    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

  6. #6
    Cyburbian dvdneal's avatar
    Registered
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Remote command post at local bar
    Posts
    3,970
    For us, Westcor is building a new regional mall. Some of the things I know they looked for are, distance to the nearest mall, number of people served in a 10 mile radius, and average income in that area.
    As far as stores go, I chalk it up to income. The store won't show up if it can't sell its goods. Our residents are screaming for a Nordstrom's or Barney's, but the income is way to low. We may want to be high end, but the wallet says no, have a Wal-Mart instead.
    I don't pretend to understand Brannigan's Law. I merely enforce it.

  7. #7
    BANNED
    Registered
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Templeton, Ca
    Posts
    417
    Well, I was looking through Dillard's website and found that most Dillards are found in areas with populations close to 150,000 population and in cities with at 45,000 population.

    Paso Robles, the city closest to my home town, is expected to reach 135,000 population by 2020 and the city itself have 45,000 population and an estimated 60,000 medium income according to the city's economic strategic plan and 2009 economic forecast. I am unsure if that will be able to attract a Dillards though.

  8. #8
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
    Registered
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Where the weak are killed and eaten.
    Posts
    6,183
    How hard would it be for Dillards to service the store from their nearest warehouse?

    If the transport costs are low and the demographics match it may be just a matter of time. If transport costs are too high then they might not be able to be competitive. A successful area for a retailer to market has to factor in more than just traffic counts or rooftops.

    Gantos found this out the hard way by trying to run a retail giant out of Grand Rapids. They had to run trucks out of a Grand Rapids warehouse to much larger markets to the South. Their suppliers had to charge more to get to this warhouse, because it was not in a geographic sweet spot. If they moved distribution to I-94 or I-80/90 they could have lowered their costs and the cost of their suppliers dramatically.
    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

  9. #9
    BANNED
    Registered
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Templeton, Ca
    Posts
    417
    Quote Originally posted by DetroitPlanner View post
    How hard would it be for Dillards to service the store from their nearest warehouse?

    If the transport costs are low and the demographics match it may be just a matter of time. If transport costs are too high then they might not be able to be competitive. A successful area for a retailer to market has to factor in more than just traffic counts or rooftops.

    Gantos found this out the hard way by trying to run a retail giant out of Grand Rapids. They had to run trucks out of a Grand Rapids warehouse to much larger markets to the South. Their suppliers had to charge more to get to this warhouse, because it was not in a geographic sweet spot. If they moved distribution to I-94 or I-80/90 they could have lowered their costs and the cost of their suppliers dramatically.
    Dillards has three locations in California: Palmdale, Stockton, and El Centro. Their warehouse in California is in LA. Palmdale is an hour from LA, and the others are much farther. Stockton is farther north, than Paso Robles. El Centro is closer to Arizona, so Im guessing they don't use the LA warehouse and they use the Arizona one.

  10. #10
    BANNED
    Registered
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Templeton, Ca
    Posts
    417
    Sorry, but I had another question that arose. So which would more likely be developed a lifestyle center or regional mall? I heard more lifestyle centers are being built than malls.

    here is the info on the cityhttp://www.city-data.com/city/Paso-Robles-California.html

    It's expected to have 45,000 population in 2020, and the correct population right now is at 29,500 population. They expect to up the average income to $55,000 by bringing in more higher end jobs and an ampitheater and other cultural buidlings.

    there is 132,000 population in the trade area

  11. #11
    BANNED
    Registered
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Templeton, Ca
    Posts
    417
    According to some one I talked to in the business, he says there needs to be 150,000 population within a 8 mile radius or 20 minute driving distance.

    The ICSC definition syas a 5-15 mile trade area though.

    http://www.icsc.org/srch/lib/2009_S-...TION_May09.pdf

    My city of Paso Robles, CA will have 120,000 population within a 8 mile radius by 2020, but will have far more than 150,000 population in a 15 mile radius (approximate 35 minute driving distance).

    Can anyone help me out? Thanks

  12. #12
    Cyburbian mike gurnee's avatar
    Registered
    Feb 1998
    Location
    Greensburg, Kansas
    Posts
    2,949
    I know of a life style center developed on land owned by the former planning commission chair.

  13. #13
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
    Registered
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Where the weak are killed and eaten.
    Posts
    6,183
    Quote Originally posted by urban19 View post
    Sorry, but I had another question that arose. So which would more likely be developed a lifestyle center or regional mall? I heard more lifestyle centers are being built than malls.
    I've always laughed at the term lifestyle center. Could not a lifestyle center be a part of a crappy neighborhood with a liquor store, strip bar, crack houses, street hookers, and porn shops?

    Most of what I see that are referred to as lifestyle centers are nothing more than strip malls with a road cut in them and a trendy eatery or bar. Its sort of like lipstick on the pig.
    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

  14. #14
    BANNED
    Registered
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Templeton, Ca
    Posts
    417
    Does anyone know the rate of how many malls are being built every 5 or 1 year vs. lifestyle centers? I think my area doesn't have much of a chance of getting a regional mall because the trend leans towards lifestyle centers.

  15. #15
    Cyburbian Raf's avatar
    Registered
    Feb 2007
    Location
    America's Happiest City
    Posts
    4,905
    Quote Originally posted by urban19 View post
    Does anyone know the rate of how many malls are being built every 5 or 1 year vs. lifestyle centers? I think my area doesn't have much of a chance of getting a regional mall because the trend leans towards lifestyle centers.
    The paso area doesn't have a chance due to the economics factors and demographics all pull towards SLO and the 5 cities. I would say you won't see a new mall built in the area or california for that matter for the next 5 years unless it is already in pipeline with entitlements and construction already started. Why does it matter? A DP said, lifestyle centers and malls are just pig with lipstick strip center.
    Men do dumb $hit... it is what they do to correct the problem that counts.

  16. #16
    Member
    Registered
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Hamilton, Ontario
    Posts
    14
    there are many downtown malls in mid-sized urban cities in southern ontario which have witnessed significant decline in the past decades. My hometown Hamilton is a perfect example of not what to do to a downtown core. A very interesting topic, that I have been researching for the past year.

  17. #17
    BANNED
    Registered
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Templeton, Ca
    Posts
    417
    Quote Originally posted by CPSURaf View post
    The paso area doesn't have a chance due to the economics factors and demographics all pull towards SLO and the 5 cities. I would say you won't see a new mall built in the area or california for that matter for the next 5 years unless it is already in pipeline with entitlements and construction already started. Why does it matter? A DP said, lifestyle centers and malls are just pig with lipstick strip center.
    Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I think Paso will get a lifestyle center by 2020. I don't think it will be a mall since the trends have changed to building lifestyle centers instead of traditional regional malls. Paso is expected to surpass the size of SLO by 2020, but the northern san luis obispo county area will not be larger than southern san luis obispo county.

  18. #18
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
    Registered
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Where the weak are killed and eaten.
    Posts
    6,183
    Quote Originally posted by sakalamp View post
    there are many downtown malls in mid-sized urban cities in southern ontario which have witnessed significant decline in the past decades. My hometown Hamilton is a perfect example of not what to do to a downtown core. A very interesting topic, that I have been researching for the past year.
    I would not totally write off Hamilton as a disaster. Though I've not been there for a few years integrating the farmer's market, libary, and the food court for nearby office towers seemed to work very well.

    What is difficult to assess is how much of an impact of the closure of large anchors like Eatons or the economy in general had. You will find this same phenomena in London or Sarnia. I would doubt you could plan for that without planning for say more Walmarts or similar stores. That is one advantage that the suburban malls have, lose an anchor, rip it down or reconfigure it. Can't do that as easily with a tight urban mall.
    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

  19. #19
    BANNED
    Registered
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Templeton, Ca
    Posts
    417
    I need some more info on lifestyle centers. As stated earlier, traditionally they are located in upper middle class suburban areas (medium family incomes $75-$100,000).

    Here are some other questions:

    1) What determines if there will be a department store? None in the area, larger lifestyle center size, community demand?

    2) What trait do all lifestyle centers share? upscale stores? being open-air? (then again some regional malls are open-air) the urban village look?

    3) What determines if a center has a grocery store, pharmacy, and other large retailers vs. more upscale boutigue stores? the income of the area?

    Thanks

  20. #20
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
    Registered
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Where the weak are killed and eaten.
    Posts
    6,183
    1. Nothing, maybe the developer greases an anchor to bring in other suckers.
    2. Nothing, maybe that they are all full of trendy shops, most of which will be out of business in 5 years?
    3. Nothing, everybody eats. You can find groceries and drug stores where people are not upscale. Upscale people have been known to need food and medicine too I'm told.
    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

  21. #21
    Cyburbian stroskey's avatar
    Registered
    Dec 2008
    Location
    the delta
    Posts
    1,199
    Quote Originally posted by DetroitPlanner View post
    You can find groceries and drug stores where people are not upscale.
    That's a bold-faced lie and you know it.

  22. #22
    BANNED
    Registered
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Templeton, Ca
    Posts
    417
    well, i found a good article on them. it said most department stores r smaller than normal. most stores are upscale clothing stores and upscale eateries. some have entertainment complexes, larger retailers, or ice skating or other public amenities for the public.

  23. #23
    Cyburbian Raf's avatar
    Registered
    Feb 2007
    Location
    America's Happiest City
    Posts
    4,905
    Quote Originally posted by urban19 View post

    1) What determines if there will be a department store? None in the area, larger lifestyle center size, community demand?

    2) What trait do all lifestyle centers share? upscale stores? being open-air? (then again some regional malls are open-air) the urban village look?

    3) What determines if a center has a grocery store, pharmacy, and other large retailers vs. more upscale boutigue stores? the income of the area?
    1) size of the space, location, trade area, demand of products/services, income and most important of all cost lease agreement

    2) None. They are contain stores. There is no one look. In the end, it is all the same, a retail destination. Repackage it anyway you like to your hearts content.

    3) See 1.

    4) A lifestyle center, shopping center, etc. does not determine if a place is urban or rural. Didn't they teach you that in school yet, or are they saving that for upper division courses?
    Men do dumb $hit... it is what they do to correct the problem that counts.

  24. #24
    Cyburbian Emeritus Bear Up North's avatar
    Registered
    May 2003
    Location
    Northwestern Ohio
    Posts
    9,327

    Toledo, OH

    Here's a brief history of retail in Toledo, OH. Important to note that Toledo fits the "rustbelt city" description. However, the city used to be the corporate home of seven Fortune 500 companies. Only three remain, and two of those moved to the suburbs. The city does have at least four suburbs that have above-average income levels.

    Downtown & The First Shopping Center Wave
    Toledo's Central Business District (downtown) was the only place for retail until the late 1960s. The first wave of shopping centers swept over the area. These centers included Westgate Village, Miracle Mile, Great Eastern, and Southland. These centers were built in the areas that were growing quickly, especially as Toledo moved aggressively along an annexation trail.....areas of 1950s and 1960s ranch-style homes and middle-income families. The centers were located on the more heavily-traveled streets of the city.

    The Malls
    In the early to mid-1970s "enclosed mall fever" engulfed Metro Toledo. Southwyck Mall, Woodville Mall, Greenwood Mall, North Towne Mall and Franklin Park Mall were all built at the edge of the city limits or in adjacent inner-ring suburbs. Once again the locations were in middle-income high-traffic areas.

    Woodville Mall remains open, with just a handful of retail venues. The others, except Franklin Park, are gone. Franklin Park reinvented itself as the area's only Super Regional Mall. Franklin Park, now known as Westfield Franklin Park, does have a super location, on one of Toledo's busiest streets and very close to I-475 interchanges.

    Lifestyle & Village-Like Center
    In the last six or so years the Metro grabbed a couple of new retail venues. Levis Commons, in above-income Perrysburg (outer-ring suburb) has proved quite successful, with a blend of retail, entertainment, upscale housing, and corporate office complexes (including one of the Fortune 500 companies). Just a few miles distant is The Shops At Fallen Timbers, a large shopping center that has the village-like streetscape. Levis Commons is doing very well.....Fallen Timbers, not so much. Fallen Timbers is located in well-to-do Monclova Township but that association has not led to great success.
    _____

    So, where do those with the most disposable income shop? Close to home....

    (Western portions of Toledo) - Westfield Franklin Park
    Ottawa Hills - Very high income suburb - Westfield Franklin Park
    Sylvania - Westfield Franklin Park
    Monclova Township - Levis Commons (& a touch of Fallen Timbers)
    Perrysburg - Levis Commons
    _____

    My guess is that Toledo is typical.

    Bear
    Occupy Cyburbia!

  25. #25
    BANNED
    Registered
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Templeton, Ca
    Posts
    417
    Quote Originally posted by Bear Up North View post
    Here's a brief history of retail in Toledo, OH. Important to note that Toledo fits the "rustbelt city" description. However, the city used to be the corporate home of seven Fortune 500 companies. Only three remain, and two of those moved to the suburbs. The city does have at least four suburbs that have above-average income levels.

    Downtown & The First Shopping Center Wave
    Toledo's Central Business District (downtown) was the only place for retail until the late 1960s. The first wave of shopping centers swept over the area. These centers included Westgate Village, Miracle Mile, Great Eastern, and Southland. These centers were built in the areas that were growing quickly, especially as Toledo moved aggressively along an annexation trail.....areas of 1950s and 1960s ranch-style homes and middle-income families. The centers were located on the more heavily-traveled streets of the city.

    The Malls
    In the early to mid-1970s "enclosed mall fever" engulfed Metro Toledo. Southwyck Mall, Woodville Mall, Greenwood Mall, North Towne Mall and Franklin Park Mall were all built at the edge of the city limits or in adjacent inner-ring suburbs. Once again the locations were in middle-income high-traffic areas.

    Woodville Mall remains open, with just a handful of retail venues. The others, except Franklin Park, are gone. Franklin Park reinvented itself as the area's only Super Regional Mall. Franklin Park, now known as Westfield Franklin Park, does have a super location, on one of Toledo's busiest streets and very close to I-475 interchanges.

    Lifestyle & Village-Like Center
    In the last six or so years the Metro grabbed a couple of new retail venues. Levis Commons, in above-income Perrysburg (outer-ring suburb) has proved quite successful, with a blend of retail, entertainment, upscale housing, and corporate office complexes (including one of the Fortune 500 companies). Just a few miles distant is The Shops At Fallen Timbers, a large shopping center that has the village-like streetscape. Levis Commons is doing very well.....Fallen Timbers, not so much. Fallen Timbers is located in well-to-do Monclova Township but that association has not led to great success.
    _____

    So, where do those with the most disposable income shop? Close to home....

    (Western portions of Toledo) - Westfield Franklin Park
    Ottawa Hills - Very high income suburb - Westfield Franklin Park
    Sylvania - Westfield Franklin Park
    Monclova Township - Levis Commons (& a touch of Fallen Timbers)
    Perrysburg - Levis Commons
    _____

    My guess is that Toledo is typical.

    Bear
    well put

+ Reply to thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

More at Cyburbia

  1. The US seems to hate malls?
    Make No Small Plans
    Replies: 19
    Last post: 28 Apr 2008, 8:23 AM
  2. Replies: 11
    Last post: 28 Sep 2007, 3:12 AM
  3. Replies: 7
    Last post: 19 Mar 2005, 12:47 PM
  4. Used Car Mega-Malls?
    Economic and Community Development
    Replies: 7
    Last post: 09 Jan 2004, 3:36 PM
  5. Strip Malls
    Design, Space, and Place
    Replies: 6
    Last post: 18 Aug 2003, 11:18 AM