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Poll results: What do you think the outcome of tomorrow's presidential election will be?

Voters
26. You may not vote on this poll
  • Obama wins electoral and popular vote

    20 76.92%
  • Romney wins electoral and popular vote

    2 7.69%
  • Gary Johnson wins electoral and popular vote :thumb:

    0 0%
  • Obama wins electoral vote, Romney wins popular vote

    4 15.38%
  • Romney wins electoral vote, Obama wins popular vote

    0 0%
  • Obama and Romney tie in the electoral vote

    0 0%
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Thread: The First 2012 Presidential Election Thread

  1. #301
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Whose Yur Planner View post
    Palin isn't stupid. She's milking this cow till it runs dry. However, she's more of a celebrity than an actual candidate.. She also suffers from verbal typos, but refuses to acknowledge them. I agree with Ima on this one. The troubling part of this whole episode...
    To me the troubling part is that she is getting paid by Fox News and still running a "campaign". She isn't going to officially commit because if she says No or Yes people will care less about her.

    She knows she can't get enough R's to like her to get the nomination, let alone get enough Americans for the Presidency. Unless you are a FAR Right R, I don't know any rational R that likes her.

    The celebrity game of politics just continues to amplify as media avenues expand....
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  2. #302
    Cyburbian Brocktoon's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by mgk920 View post
    Ok, so Sarah's degree isn't from the Ivy League. Your point being? OTOH, GWB's degree WAS from the Ivy League, but you react the exact same way whenever the discussion turns towards him.



    Mike
    Both President Bush and Ms. Palin choose to be ignorant...its not about where they went to school its about their lack of intellectual curiosity. Both have demonstrated very little.

    It is a disgrace when lack of knowledge and ignorance of basic facts is seen as a virtue which both of these politicians have embraced like the Bible and the American flag.

    I am surprised by your infinity for MS. Palin. She accomplished less in her time as governor than President Obama accomplished in the Senate. Which is a point you constantly brought up.
    "If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less" General Eric Shinseki

  3. #303
    Cyburbian The One's avatar
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    Sure....

    Quote Originally posted by Brocktoon View post
    Both President Bush and Ms. Palin choose to be ignorant...its not about where they went to school its about their lack of intellectual curiosity. Both have demonstrated very little.

    It is a disgrace when lack of knowledge and ignorance of basic facts is seen as a virtue which both of these politicians have embraced like the Bible and the American flag.
    Coincidentlly, it appeals to their base/core voters.
    "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
    John Kenneth Galbraith

  4. #304
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    I can't wait for the Republican primary season to begin. It will be a bloodbath and fun to watch!!
    And so it begins!

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thetic...ms-sarah-palin
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  5. #305
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Brocktoon View post
    Both President Bush and Ms. Palin choose to be ignorant...its not about where they went to school its about their lack of intellectual curiosity. Both have demonstrated very little.
    They are far from alike. Bush adopted his folksy attitude to appeal to the base, knowing all along he was working for the big money people. I don't think he is ignorant in the least, and as proof of that, just look at the things he accomplished that were totally against the best interest of 99% of the American people. He was basically the roper in a long con, we were the marks, and Cheney was the inside man.

    I think I know exactly what Palin was trying to accomplish. She wanted to use Revere's ride as an anti-gun control message, and if she weren't such a dunce, could have easily pulled it off.

    "I saw the famous route of Paul Revere, who rode perilously in the night to call men to arms so they could be free. Those same ideals need to kept in case patriots today once again face tyranny."

    How hard is that?
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
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  6. #306
    Cyburbian TexanOkie's avatar
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    Off-topic:
    Quote Originally posted by Mastiff View post
    They are far from alike. Bush adopted his folksy attitude to appeal to the base, knowing all along he was working for the big money people. I don't think he is ignorant in the least, and as proof of that, just look at the things he accomplished that were totally against the best interest of 99% of the American people. He was basically the roper in a long con, we were the marks, and Cheney was the inside man.
    In LSAT-speak, "This is the credited response." At least, it is from your and your compatriots' political perspectives. You could argue that we've come a long way since, but have we really (even from your perspective)? Obama seems to be working for the big money people at least as much as, if not more than, Bush was. He gets more political contributions from big money, spends more time vacationing with big money, and provides more policy loopholes to big money (without providing at least some of the same loopholes to small or mid money) than George W. Bush did (taking into account differences in time in office up to this point). On top of that, Obama has kept a great deal of the most controversial policies of George W. Bush's administration in place, especially concerning the War on Terror.

  7. #307
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    TexOkie- Obama is definitely working for big money, but he's not as blatent or aggressive about it. I certainly was dissapointed he refused to allow the dems to include drug price negotiation in HCR or to include a public option. I also am not sold that he really is interested in getting rid of the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy. He also shows no sign of slowing down the MIC.

    On another note, Pawlenty released an op-ed which says how great is was to have close to 5% growth during the Clinton years. Oddly, he claims the way to do that is cut more taxes rather than go back to Clinton tax rates.

    What I found more shocking was his proposal that ALL federal regulations should be eliminated unless congress agrees to extend them.

    Quote Originally posted by Tim Pawlenty
    we should require sunsetting of all federal regulations, unless sustained by a vote of Congress
    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/o...,4663411.story
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

  8. #308
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    Off-topic:
    Quote Originally posted by TexanOkie View post

    In LSAT-speak, "This is the credited response." At least, it is from your and your compatriots' political perspectives. You could argue that we've come a long way since, but have we really (even from your perspective)? Obama seems to be working for the big money people at least as much as, if not more than, Bush was. He gets more political contributions from big money, spends more time vacationing with big money, and provides more policy loopholes to big money (without providing at least some of the same loopholes to small or mid money) than George W. Bush did (taking into account differences in time in office up to this point). On top of that, Obama has kept a great deal of the most controversial policies of George W. Bush's administration in place, especially concerning the War on Terror.
    Couple things... One, you seem to be lumping me into some group of "compatriots", and you probably shouldn't. I believe I've pointed out to you before that I probably agree more with you than you believed. We strongly disagree on some social issues, but probably not many fiscal ones.

    Second, while I have had lots of fun at the expense of Bush, I've always seen what I state above. Oh, yes, he said some really idiotic things over his terms, but I never though he was a simpleton, even if I said it in frustration.

    Third, I'm not a fan of Obama. I was hopeful, but it turns out he's more of the same... the only real change was from R to D. Health care? The joke is on us! It's a giant handjob to the insurance companies that will further suck money from a shrinking middle class. They aren't going to run out of scams until we are back to feudal lords and serfs. How politicians get masses of people to vote against their own interests is beyond me.


    On topic, I hope someday someone will run as an independent that is so charismatic and has such a real interest in elevating the US, the people have no choice but to elect him or her.

    How I would love to hear this start to a speech:

    "On abortion, I'm not taking a stand, because we have to many other things to worry about in the next four years. If I run again, and we've fixed the bigger problems, perhaps we'll address it. The same goes for gun control, gay marriage, and religious issues. What I will do is ask Congress to pass a bill that separates national elections from these divisive social issues, to make elections more fair."
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    C'mon and get me you twist of fate
    I'm standing right here Mr. Destiny
    If you want to talk well then I'll relate
    If you don't so what cause you don't scare me

  9. #309
    Cyburbian TexanOkie's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Mastiff View post
    [OT]

    Couple things... One, you seem to be lumping me into some group of "compatriots", and you probably shouldn't. I believe I've pointed out to you before that I probably agree more with you than you believed. We strongly disagree on some social issues, but probably not many fiscal ones.
    I apologize. I did not mean to lump you in ideologically in to simplified group of left-leaning folks. Rather, I meant your "compatriots" to be folks who disliked George W. Bush and bought in to the Obama campaign mantra of "Hope and Change" and "Yes We Can", regardless of their political opinions.

  10. #310
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by TexanOkie View post
    I apologize. I did not mean to lump you in ideologically with a bunch of left-leaning folks. Rather, I meant your "compatriots" to be folks who disliked George W. Bush and bought in to the Obama campaign mantra of "Hope and Change" and "Yes We Can", regardless of their political opinions.
    No worries. I'm skeptical of all politicians... with good reason. I disliked GWB for different reasons that Obama, but not that different.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    C'mon and get me you twist of fate
    I'm standing right here Mr. Destiny
    If you want to talk well then I'll relate
    If you don't so what cause you don't scare me

  11. #311
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    We're all effed. The corporations rule us.
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  12. #312
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by btrage
    I don't understand why the jobs aren't being created. We extended the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy with a lot of talk about how it would help spur job creation.

    Hmmmmmm........
    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner View post
    I'm still waiting to hear how cutting spending will create jobs. I kind of feel like we are in a Twilight Zone episode
    I'm still waiting to hear how the stimulus created jobs (and no, not just building a bridge for one year) or how the healthcare plan created jobs. Or how the auto bailout created jobs. Or how doubling the American debt has created jobs.

    Regardless of what anyone's done, nothing has worked. Thus, maybe it's time for someone who isn't currently the President or a member of Congress to lead this country.

    -------------------------

    I used to like Sarah Palin. I still agree with much of what she stands for and admire her passion and her down-to-earth personality. But I think she would be a terrible leader and she has made way too many mistakes and has way too little experience to successfully lead this country. We already tried a newcomer like Obama and look what mess that has gotten us into. As Burb Fixer pointed out, quitting the Alaska governorship only 2.5 years in was very foolish. And she is way too polarizing of a figure to successfully lead the country. Also, the media and the Left have collected way too much fodder to use against her. She is so prone to mis-speaking that she has become a liability to the party and she just needs to go back to Alaska.

    I've since joined the Mitt bandwagon (and have been on it for probably the past six months or so). I see him as a viable alternative to Obama, who has a very strong record of dealing with economical and other domestic issues and has a great deal of executive experience. My only hang-up with him has been his almost too-polished image and not having that down-to-earth charisma that Bush had. He seems to have gotten a little better with that though, and I hope he continues.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
    -Steven Tyler

  13. #313
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by TexanOkie View post
    , I meant your "compatriots" to be folks who disliked George W. Bush and bought in to the Obama campaign mantra of "Hope and Change" and "Yes We Can", regardless of their political opinions.
    We are going to see the same bunch of "compatriots in 2012". People who dislike Obama and will buy into the ____ campaign of "_____" and "____". You know what I mean?

    Quote Originally posted by btrage
    We're all effed. The corporations rule us.
    That's what I mean.
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

  14. #314
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Mastiff View post
    "I saw the famous route of Paul Revere, who rode perilously in the night to call men to arms so they could be free. Those same ideals need to kept in case patriots today once again face tyranny."

    How hard is that?
    She would have to understand history to be able to talk about it. I liked the Daily Show piece on it. Quite good.

    Quote Originally posted by Mastiff
    How I would love to hear this start to a speech:

    "On abortion, I'm not taking a stand, because we have to many other things to worry about in the next four years. If I run again, and we've fixed the bigger problems, perhaps we'll address it. The same goes for gun control, gay marriage, and religious issues. What I will do is ask Congress to pass a bill that separates national elections from these divisive social issues, to make elections more fair."
    This is how the republican candidates should be talking. They should realize that they are going to win on fiscal issues. But they still lean WAY too much on the religious right. Which will be their downfall as more and more Americans become libertarians when it comes to social issues.

    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner
    I'm still waiting to hear how the stimulus created jobs (and no, not just building a bridge for one year) or how the healthcare plan created jobs. Or how the auto bailout created jobs. Or how doubling the American debt has created jobs.

    Regardless of what anyone's done, nothing has worked. Thus, maybe it's time for someone who isn't currently the President or a member of Congress to lead this country.
    The stimulus created jobs. Many were temporary or many allowed businesses to retain workforce.

    I still don't understand why this is a republican talking point. Argue that the money could have been spent in a better way (which I agree with), don't argue that it didn't create jobs or lower the unemployment rate.

    http://www.factcheck.org/2010/09/did...s-create-jobs/

    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner
    I've since joined the Mitt bandwagon (and have been on it for probably the past six months or so). I see him as a viable alternative to Obama, who has a very strong record of dealing with economical and other domestic issues and has a great deal of executive experience. My only hang-up with him has been his almost too-polished image and not having that down-to-earth charisma that Bush had. He seems to have gotten a little better with that though, and I hope he continues.
    I find this interesting. Since you seem to be against the Obama Healthcare system, how do you rectify the fact the Romney liked it so much he did it first? Or is his McCain* for this election enough for you to vote for him?

    *To McCain is to become a politician that you never were just to try and win an election - to be two-faced or ingenuine
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  15. #315
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner View post
    I'm still waiting to hear how the stimulus created jobs (and no, not just building a bridge for one year) or how the healthcare plan created jobs. Or how the auto bailout created jobs. Or how doubling the American debt has created jobs.

    Regardless of what anyone's done, nothing has worked. Thus, maybe it's time for someone who isn't currently the President or a member of Congress to lead this country.
    Except extending the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy has not led to job creation AND has added to the debt.

    As a Republican, how can you stand for this? It's hypocritical.
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  16. #316
    Cyburbian stroskey's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    Except extending the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy has not led to job creation AND has added to the debt.

    As a Republican, how can you stand for this? It's hypocritical.
    This is why I don't like politics. Someone asks a question and instead of an honest answer there is only a criticism of something unrelated from the other party. This is why nothing ever gets done - people only have talking points and nothing more.

    "Why were you speeding on the highway?"
    "Well why did YOU run a stop sign in 1999?"

    Ugh!
    I burned down the church to atone for my transgressions.

  17. #317
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by stroskey View post
    This is why I don't like politics. Someone asks a question and instead of an honest answer there is only a criticism of something unrelated from the other party. This is why nothing ever gets done - people only have talking points and nothing more.

    "Why were you speeding on the highway?"
    "Well why did YOU run a stop sign in 1999?"

    Ugh!
    My post that started this was about the extension of the Bush tax cuts. I'm just sticking to my talking points.
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  18. #318
    Cyburbian HomerJ's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by stroskey View post
    This is why I don't like politics. Someone asks a question and instead of an honest answer there is only a criticism of something unrelated from the other party. This is why nothing ever gets done - people only have talking points and nothing more.

    "Why were you speeding on the highway?"
    "Well why did YOU run a stop sign in 1999?"

    Ugh!

    This is why I do my best to remain politically nuetral. If I was being completely honest, I could say I favor a certain party most of the time. However, I usually feel this way because they are the lesser of 2 evils, and I usually try my best to keep it to myself.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    All this talk about what a huge failure Obama is... How many years did it take for us to crawl out of the Great Depression? I'm not trying to put a halo on the guy's head, but it seems like he was elected under the most unfortunate timing possible. I'm not against the idea of a strong candidate challenging Obama in the next election, I just haven't seen one yet.
    Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.

  19. #319
    Cyburbian mgk920's avatar
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    I'm not at all on the Mitt Romney bandwagon, mainly because he is still under the influence of the Global Warming/Cap and Trade Kool Aid™ and due to the health-care disaster that is developing in Massachusetts.

    I do agree that things like socialized health care are perfectly fine (as per the US Constitution) to do at the state level, but that does not make them good ideas.

    Also, I will vigorously support anyone who comes out and outright proclaims that he/she will, right after he/she takes the oath of office and before beginning his/her inaugural address, sign an executive order granting permanent Obamacare™ waivers to every individual, state and local government, corporation, partnership, sole-proprietorship, union and so on - EVERYBODY (assuming that it will not by then have already been deep-sixed by the USSupremes).

    Mike

  20. #320
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by mgk920 View post
    I'm not at all on the Mitt Romney bandwagon, mainly because he is still under the influence of the Global Warming/Cap and Trade Kool Aid™ and due to the health-care disaster that is developing in Massachusetts.

    I do agree that things like socialized health care are perfectly fine (as per the US Constitution) to do at the state level, but that does not make them good ideas.

    Also, I will vigorously support anyone who comes out and outright proclaims that he/she will, right after he/she takes the oath of office and before beginning his/her inaugural address, sign an executive order granting permanent Obamacare™ waivers to every individual, state and local government, corporation, partnership, sole-proprietorship, union and so on - EVERYBODY (assuming that it will not by then have already been deep-sixed by the USSupremes).

    Mike
    What do you do for a living? Do you pay your own health care costs or does your employer? What percentage of your total salary goes towards health care? What would you do if you lost your job AND immediately got sick? Do you have a pre-existing condition? Have you ever tried to get health insurance with a pre-existing condition? Is annual 20-40% increases in health insurance premiums acceptable to you?
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

  21. #321
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hink_Planner View post
    The stimulus created jobs. Many were temporary or many allowed businesses to retain workforce.
    What I bolded is very telling. A trillion dollars just for temporary jobs and retaining workforce. I love how the Dems always back-pedal with this one. "Okay, well we didn't create a whole lot of lasting jobs, but at least we saved jobs and created temporary ones!" Fact of the matter is, the unemployment rate is still at 9%. Obama's had three years now, going on four, and I still see no signfiicant progress towards reducing the unemployment rate. If it goes down to 7% or something, then I can start to give him credit for his handling of the economy. But until then, I feel someone else can do better and act more quickly.

    I find this interesting. Since you seem to be against the Obama Healthcare system, how do you rectify the fact the Romney liked it so much he did it first? Or is his McCain* for this election enough for you to vote for him?

    *To McCain is to become a politician that you never were just to try and win an election - to be two-faced or ingenuine
    Don't come to hasty conclusions right away. There are parts of Obamacare that I like, some that I'm more indifferent about, and some parts that I absolutely don't like. Regardless, I think the whole package was ill-timed. During a time when Obama should have been focused more on job creation, we had this whole sideshow for much of late 2009 and early 2010, a critical period when more action should have been taken directly on job creation. Yes, reforming our healthcare system should be a priority, but I feel that this plan was put together way too quickly, was not very bi-partisan, and was something that the American public was not fully on-board with. I don't think we necessarily need to repeal the whole thing, but there are parts that could be tweaked. I think Romney will be able to work with both sides to tweak the bill and make it something that both sides can more fully agree on.

    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    Except extending the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy has not led to job creation AND has added to the debt.

    As a Republican, how can you stand for this? It's hypocritical.
    Well, I believe it helped spur job creation back when it was first passed and implemented in the early 2000s, but back then, the wealthy had more confidence in the economy. Today, due to a lack of confidence in the economy (due in part to policy decisions by the Democrats in Washington from 2006-present), wealthy investors are just sitting on their money and not doing anything to spur the economy. Maybe with the right person leading this country, they will invest.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
    -Steven Tyler

  22. #322
    Cyburbian Brocktoon's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner View post
    I'm still waiting to hear how the stimulus created jobs (and no, not just building a bridge for one year) or how the healthcare plan created jobs. Or how the auto bailout created jobs. Or how doubling the American debt has created jobs.

    Regardless of what anyone's done, nothing has worked. Thus, maybe it's time for someone who isn't currently the President or a member of Congress to lead this country.

    -------------------------
    If it was not for the auto bailout then GM and Chrysler would not be in business and many more jobs would have been lost. The indirect and induced jobs the auto industry supports is huge. Because of the bailout GM is now adding 2500 jobs to its Hamtramck facility As for the stimulus 1/3 was tax cuts, 1/3 was aid to government and 1/3 was transportation infrastructure. You are correct that most of the jobs for transportation were temporary but also many teachers did not lose their jobs because of the stimulus program.

    If you ever talk with a economic developer they will tell you it is just as if not more important to retain a job as it is to attract or create one.

    When the federal government was involved in funding research and investing in America we saw robust job creation. Maintaining roads, railroads, the power grid, air and sea ports is not spending its investing. As is funding research. If you look at the major research and tech areas of the country almost all have received heavy amounts of federal dollars. Silicon Valley, Route 128 in Boston etc all got research funds from Uncle Sam. President Bush started to cut many of these programs and labeled them as waste and Obama has been mixed in restoring the funding in some programs he has while cutting others.

    On the Republican side Romney is the least scary of the presidential hopefuls. His venture capital background, willingness to cooperate with multiple factions and his understanding of what makes an economy work makes him a good candidate. What scares me about him is I have no idea where he stands, he keeps reversing himself on positions.
    "If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less" General Eric Shinseki

  23. #323
    Cyburbian boiker's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner View post
    Regardless, I think the whole package was ill-timed. During a time when Obama should have been focused more on job creation, we had this whole sideshow for much of late 2009 and early 2010, a critical period when more action should have been taken directly on job creation.
    You know what the #1 barrier for many start-ups and small businesses is? Health Care costs. I would consider venturing on my own if I could afford healthcare for my family as I start my business. As it is, healthcare is not affordable. In some ways, the HC reform helped make it easier for small businesses to provide health care. In other ways, it appears to be stringing along the existing burdens. Real reform is necessary, not a patch job. We need to make it easier for young and middle-aged professionals to start their own businesses without compromising their health.


    Well, I believe it helped spur job creation back when it was first passed and implemented in the early 2000s, but back then, the wealthy had more confidence in the economy. Today, due to a lack of confidence in the economy (due in part to policy decisions by the Democrats in Washington from 2006-present), wealthy investors are just sitting on their money and not doing anything to spur the economy. Maybe with the right person leading this country, they will invest.
    Here's a chart of job growth in the past decades: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...010101478.html

    You are correct. The tax cuts did spur job creation--just not in the USA (save for a small percentage). Job growth for American industries in foreign countries is still growing. US labor is at a tremendous competitive disadvantage compared to developing nations and our trade and tax policies support this disadvantage. Where jobs did grow during the Bush years were in government. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/09/bu.../09charts.html
    Dude, I'm cheesing so hard right now.

  24. #324
    Cyburbian Raf's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by boiker View post
    You know what the #1 barrier for many start-ups and small businesses is? Health Care costs.
    Nail on the head...

    My grandfather in law, a small business owner and republican voter has the same assessment. America cannot be competitive with other nations until we figure out our healthcare system. Medicare (a single payer system) seems to be working for all the older folks (tweaks needed of course)... one wonders why we can't have a similar system for us able body contributors.
    follow me on the twitter @rcplans

  25. #325
    Cyburbian Brocktoon's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by boiker View post
    You know what the #1 barrier for many start-ups and small businesses is? Health Care costs. I would consider venturing on my own if I could afford healthcare for my family as I start my business. As it is, healthcare is not affordable. In some ways, the HC reform helped make it easier for small businesses to provide health care. In other ways, it appears to be stringing along the existing burdens. Real reform is necessary, not a patch job. We need to make it easier for young and middle-aged professionals to start their own businesses without compromising their health.



    Here's a chart of job growth in the past decades: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...010101478.html

    You are correct. The tax cuts did spur job creation--just not in the USA (save for a small percentage). Job growth for American industries in foreign countries is still growing. US labor is at a tremendous competitive disadvantage compared to developing nations and our trade and tax policies support this disadvantage. Where jobs did grow during the Bush years were in government. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/09/bu.../09charts.html
    Starbucks spends more on healthcare for its employees than it does on coffee...lets also remember that government in all of its forms cover almost 50% of Americans.
    "If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less" General Eric Shinseki

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