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Poll results: What do you think the outcome of tomorrow's presidential election will be?

Voters
26. You may not vote on this poll
  • Obama wins electoral and popular vote

    20 76.92%
  • Romney wins electoral and popular vote

    2 7.69%
  • Gary Johnson wins electoral and popular vote :thumb:

    0 0%
  • Obama wins electoral vote, Romney wins popular vote

    4 15.38%
  • Romney wins electoral vote, Obama wins popular vote

    0 0%
  • Obama and Romney tie in the electoral vote

    0 0%
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Thread: The First 2012 Presidential Election Thread

  1. #101
    Cyburbian TexanOkie's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Mastiff View post
    ...tell it to someone else. Want to convince me? Let's discuss his inability to get real health care reform in place with a super majority in Congress. We can talk about still being in the middle east. How about some real financial reform... or campaign finance changes... or lobbying congress? Or, to put it in more simple terms, if you let those nut bags be in your party, I will not be joining you.
    That's fine. We can't get everyone. Plus, I'm fair at least an equal or comparable, perhaps even a greater, amount of independents are more worried about the nutbags in the Democratic party and the nuts in their policies that are somehow treated as the mainstream within it, to make up the difference.

  2. #102
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    The problem is a lot of people assume that anyone who participates in the Tea Party is crazy, loony, ultra-right, McVeigh-like, racist, bigoted, etc. Of course, this will happen, when the media hones in on the 1% of people in the Tea Party who exhibit this behavior.

    I think a lot of people in the Tea Party are just merely dissatisfied with the government, concerned about their future and their kids' futures, concerned about massive out-of-control spending, concerned about already high tax rates which will likely increase to pay for the debt, and concerned about the government takeover of so many aspects of our lives and are worried since the government has screwed up a lot of things lately. And I went to one of these rallies in Chicago last year, and there were an equal number of boos for both Obama and Bush. So, the truth is, it's not all conservatives. The fact is, the Tea Party is merely people who are fed up with the ineffectiveness and growing size of the federal government.

    I don't blame them. Is it out-of-line for people to compare Obama, Pelosi, or anyone to Hitler?...Of course it is! Is it wrong for people to make racist and misogynyst comments? Yes! And I wish that that kind of behavior was not tolerated. But I guess it's difficult to do, since these movements are so loosely organized and these rallies are in public forums where people are expressing their free speech. The Left had the same problem with the anti-war people that did the same kinds of things to Bush. Disagree with the war and want to protest? Fine, go ahead. Disagree with the Obama administration and the out-of-control federal government and want to protest? Fine, go ahead. But I agree...the racism, bigotry, misogyny, and violent elements need to go.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
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  3. #103
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by TexanOkie View post
    That's fine. We can't get everyone. Plus, I'm fair at least an equal or comparable, perhaps even a greater, amount of independents are more worried about the nutbags in the Democratic party and the nuts in their policies that are somehow treated as the mainstream within it, to make up the difference.
    Every large group is going to have some crazies. This is a big group who gave themselves a name and seem to be out there trying to show everyone just how loony and hateful they can be! And some in the GOP, particularly the last GOP Vice-Presidential candidate embrace them! They have a nickname out here... "hatriots." I was pretty pissed when I saw that ACORN video, but who didn't distance themselves from that? Is there some large group of left wing nutjobs of which I'm not aware?

    Do you believe any of those four bullet points?

    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner View post
    The problem is a lot of people assume that anyone who participates in the Tea Party is crazy, loony, ultra-right, McVeigh-like, racist, bigoted, etc. Of course, this will happen, when the media hones in on the 1% of people in the Tea Party who exhibit this behavior.
    I think you underestimate a little... I know our little group out here is closer to 10-20% of real unstable people. And really, even though a larger tea party outfit got them to take it down, it was a group that bought that ad space. That isn't 1%.

    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner View post
    I think a lot of people in the Tea Party are just merely dissatisfied with the government, concerned about their future and their kids' futures, concerned about massive out-of-control spending, concerned about already high tax rates which will likely increase to pay for the debt, and concerned about the government takeover of so many aspects of our lives and are worried since the government has screwed up a lot of things lately. And I went to one of these rallies in Chicago last year, and there were an equal number of boos for both Obama and Bush. So, the truth is, it's not all conservatives. The fact is, the Tea Party is merely people who are fed up with the ineffectiveness and growing size of the federal government.
    I am, too... If everyone would realize that this administration isn't to blame for all of it, maybe we can fix it. It goes back a long way, and there is plenty of blame to go around. Putting up billboards like that and holding rallies with some of the signs they hold up helps nothing, particularly when many of the people haven't educated themselves on the issues! Some of the quotes out of the mouths of those people, and yes I understand selective editing, are mind boggling. All this does is divide the country further, and how can we afford that? I'm damned sick of the whole block of R's voting no just because it was a D idea, and vice versa. Do what's right, not what will get you re-elected! If you have a better idea than the other party, put it forward! How many of them are really working for us, eh?

    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner View post
    Is it out-of-line for people to compare Obama, Pelosi, or anyone to Hitler?...Of course it is! Is it wrong for people to make racist and misogynyst comments? Yes! And I wish that that kind of behavior was not tolerated. But I guess it's difficult to do, since these movements are so loosely organized and these rallies are in public forums where people are expressing their free speech. The Left had the same problem with the anti-war people that did the same kinds of things to Bush. Disagree with the war and want to protest? Fine, go ahead. Disagree with the Obama administration and the out-of-control federal government and want to protest? Fine, go ahead. But I agree...the racism, bigotry, misogyny, and violent elements need to go.
    Well, sir, we have found a point of agreement... bravo!
    Last edited by Mastiff; 14 Jul 2010 at 6:41 PM.
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  4. #104
    Cyburbian Queen B's avatar
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    Going to try jumping in here. I am so very saddened by the current political ads and am very concerned that this will bleed over into the presidential election. Every ad I am seeing right now, they are claiming to be against every single thing the President is in favor of and they are crawling over each other to say just how many times they have voted against all the issues.
    I know I am in a Republican State, I just hope and pray there are enough people out there to make up for my vote that will not count.
    It is all a matter of perspective!!!

  5. #105
    Cyburbian CJC's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by TexanOkie View post
    They got it backwards. Obama isn't a democratic socialist. He's a social democrat. That's like a gradual-pace, one-step-below philosophy on the evolution towards a socialist society - it still relies on a capitalist economy...
    Eh, I'm pretty sure that Obama would be kicked out of any of the various Social Democrat parties around the world. That's a center-left party, and there's simply no way that Obama can be considered anything other than center-right on a global scale.
    Two wrongs don't necessarily make a right, but three lefts do.

  6. #106
    Cyburbian TexanOkie's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by CJC View post
    Eh, I'm pretty sure that Obama would be kicked out of any of the various Social Democrat parties around the world. That's a center-left party, and there's simply no way that Obama can be considered anything other than center-right on a global scale.
    Social Democratic parties around the world, yes. But as far as political philosophies go, he's towing the line between the progressive philosophies of Woodrow Wilson and FDR and the social democratic philosophies of Eduard Bernstein.

    And he's center, if not center-left, not center right, personally, on a global political compass. He's about on par with the British Labour Party, sans the Tony Blair era. The only thing keeping him right-of-center in his action is the style of government and the general political culture of the U.S.

  7. #107
    Cyburbian CJC's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by TexanOkie View post
    Social Democratic parties around the world, yes. But as far as political philosophies go, he's towing the line between the progressive philosophies of Woodrow Wilson and FDR and the social democratic philosophies of Eduard Bernstein.

    And he's center, if not center-left, not center right, personally, on a global political compass. He's about on par with the British Labour Party, sans the Tony Blair era. The only thing keeping him right-of-center in his action is the style of government and the general political culture of the U.S.
    Perhaps personally, but does that really matter? His administration (both the members of and the actions of) is certainly not anything approaching center-left, and never will be, unless he completely cleans house at some point. Obama's economic team alone bears almost no resemblance to anything that Wilson or FDR would have gone for, let alone Bernstein.

    I dunno, saying Obama is close to Eduard Bernstein seems a lot like saying that GWB is close to Ayn Rand. Actions speak a lot louder than college papers or ramblings during random speaking events, and both presidents are pretty clearly center-right on the global scale by their actions (with Bush being slightly to the right of Obama, though not really all that much).
    Last edited by CJC; 14 Jul 2010 at 8:50 PM.
    Two wrongs don't necessarily make a right, but three lefts do.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner View post
    The problem is a lot of people assume that anyone who participates in the Tea Party is crazy, loony, ultra-right, McVeigh-like, racist, bigoted, etc.
    I have gone into great detail about why the Tea Party deserves no respect, nor any positive news stories, so I will leave that part alone.

    I will say that it is better to be silent and let people think you are "crazy, loony, ultra-right, McVeigh-like, racist, bigoted, etc. than to open your collective mouth and prove it.

    Or create your open party. But don't feign independence from a party, try to become a leading voice for whatever-it-is they want, and then expect people to not scrutinize your members.
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  9. #109
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hink_Planner View post
    I have gone into great detail about why the Tea Party deserves no respect, nor any positive news stories, so I will leave that part alone.

    I will say that it is better to be silent and let people think you are "crazy, loony, ultra-right, McVeigh-like, racist, bigoted, etc. than to open your collective mouth and prove it.

    Or create your open party. But don't feign independence from a party, try to become a leading voice for whatever-it-is they want, and then expect people to not scrutinize your members.
    So, you seriously have a problem with someone that goes out and waves a "Don't Tread on Me Flag" and takes issue with the massive deficit spending of the federal government? That's generally what most of the people attending these rallies are doing. And I know, cause I've been to one. One of the largest that was held last year, in fact. They're not intending anybody any harm or saying derogatory things. Sure, a few are. And it's a shame. But, how can you seriously control these few crazies that show up, especially when their hate speech is protected by the Constitution and the cops don't do anything about it? The Tea Parties are held in public areas, and the Tea Party organizers can't really do anything about it, because it's a public area.

    Also, the Tea Parties are less organized than you might think. The Tea Party in Nashville, TN may be completely different from the Tea Party in Chicago, IL. Some may be civil and have good leaders. Others, not so much. Everybody just wants something to cling to and an avenue to express their disdain for the federal government. And sure, some cross the line. Some may not even realize they're crossing the line though, because in some areas of the country, certain behaviors are more tolerated than others. In addition, like at every protest or rally, you can have people show up that aren't loyal attenders that go all balls-to-the-wall and do completely obnoxious and inappropriate things. It's the same as the anti-war rallies.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
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  10. #110
    moderator in moderation Suburb Repairman's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner View post

    Also, the Tea Parties are less organized than you might think. The Tea Party in Nashville, TN may be completely different from the Tea Party in Chicago, IL. Some may be civil and have good leaders. Others, not so much. Everybody just wants something to cling to and an avenue to express their disdain for the federal government. And sure, some cross the line. Some may not even realize they're crossing the line though, because in some areas of the country, certain behaviors are more tolerated than others. In addition, like at every protest or rally, you can have people show up that aren't loyal attenders that go all balls-to-the-wall and do completely obnoxious and inappropriate things. It's the same as the anti-war rallies.
    I think you make an important point here regarding geographic disparity. While racism, etc. might not be a problem in your local Tea Party rally/organization, it is a serious problem elsewhere. I honestly believe that most folks participating are not racist, but the one thing that is for sure is that they are not keeping their other members in check. My father attended the rally around where we live (south central Texas) and was completely disgusted by it despite him being a pretty hardcore fiscal conservative that would otherwise support the Tea Party. He described it as "a Klan rally without the hoods" and was very upset that a positive message about Federal fiscal restraint and anti-incumbency was going to be ruined by racism. His description of the event indicated about 20% of the comments/statements made by those speaking and cheering at the event were racist, and he is hardly a shining example of political correctness himself. He also commented that what bothered him more was that no one was correcting these people on those racist statements.

    And these were not "soft" statements of racism. Several references to n***** (African American), along with a few bad terms referring to hispanic/latin american/etc.

    "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

    - Herman Göring at the Nuremburg trials (thoughts on democracy)

  11. #111
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner View post
    So, you seriously have a problem with someone that goes out and waves a "Don't Tread on Me Flag" and takes issue with the massive deficit spending of the federal government?
    Although I take issue with the flag (don't people do ANY research?), I completely respect someones right to take issue with the deficit. That isn't what this is about unfortunately. If that is what it was about, they would be fiscally conservative republicans trying to push the R's to the right on financial issues. If it were political, it wouldn't be about the Tea Party, but about the issues. The Tea Party has never been about the issues. They cannot even list what they believe in.


    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner View post
    But, how can you seriously control these few crazies that show up, especially when their hate speech is protected by the Constitution and the cops don't do anything about it? The Tea Parties are held in public areas, and the Tea Party organizers can't really do anything about it, because it's a public area.
    I went to one last year as well. I was open to the idea about people stating their beliefs and staying strong. Boy was I wrong. Most of the people present just stated Fox News talking points, and yelled at how wrong America is. I would venture to say 1 in 5 was knowledgeable about how our government actually works and what is reasonable to expect from them. Other than "No more taxes!!" and "Obama is a socialist", there were some reasonable sentiments. But honestly, most were just uninformed angry people. Instead of trying to understand why the economy is horrible, and why our government did what they thought was best, they are just taking the easy way out and yelling. Many were derogatory, many were just silly.

    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner View post
    Also, the Tea Parties are less organized than you might think. The Tea Party in Nashville, TN may be completely different from the Tea Party in Chicago, IL. Some may be civil and have good leaders. Others, not so much. Everybody just wants something to cling to and an avenue to express their disdain for the federal government. And sure, some cross the line. Some may not even realize they're crossing the line though, because in some areas of the country, certain behaviors are more tolerated than others. In addition, like at every protest or rally, you can have people show up that aren't loyal attenders that go all balls-to-the-wall and do completely obnoxious and inappropriate things. It's the same as the anti-war rallies.
    I am touching my nose in the you got it right motion from charades... it isn't a movement, it isn't a party, mainly it is a group of people, who stand for different things yelling. If they wanted to actually be effective, they would create a party and state some beliefs. They would organize, and remove all leaders who allow hate speech and misinformation. They would stop rallying around historical events that have no relevance to what they believe in.

    The Tea Party is something that we will all look back at and laugh. What a crazy time we lived in then. Ahh memories.
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  12. #112
    Cyburbian TexanOkie's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hink_Planner View post
    But honestly, most were just uninformed angry people. Instead of trying to understand why the economy is horrible, and why our government did what they thought was best, they are just taking the easy way out and yelling. Many were derogatory, many were just silly.
    I think that describes any mass of people, period, especially groups of Americans.

    Off-topic:
    Quote Originally posted by Hink_Planner View post
    Although I take issue with the flag (don't people do ANY research?)
    This statement peaked my curiosity. Do you take issue with the Gadsden Flag itself and its history/symbolism, or with its present use by groups who don't know/understand its history and symbolism? What research, facts or history about the Gadsden Flag led you to take issue with it, if that's the case? Or is it only it's present uses that you take issue with? I'm honestly curious - not trying to argue anything with this inquiry. I'm just wondering what I (and a lot of others, I'm sure) may or may not know about the flag.
    Last edited by TexanOkie; 15 Jul 2010 at 1:14 PM.

  13. #113
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Suburb Repairman View post
    I think you make an important point here regarding geographic disparity. While racism, etc. might not be a problem in your local Tea Party rally/organization, it is a serious problem elsewhere. I honestly believe that most folks participating are not racist, but the one thing that is for sure is that they are not keeping their other members in check. My father attended the rally around where we live (south central Texas) and was completely disgusted by it despite him being a pretty hardcore fiscal conservative that would otherwise support the Tea Party. He described it as "a Klan rally without the hoods" and was very upset that a positive message about Federal fiscal restraint and anti-incumbency was going to be ruined by racism. His description of the event indicated about 20% of the comments/statements made by those speaking and cheering at the event were racist, and he is hardly a shining example of political correctness himself. He also commented that what bothered him more was that no one was correcting these people on those racist statements.

    And these were not "soft" statements of racism. Several references to n***** (African American), along with a few bad terms referring to hispanic/latin american/etc.
    Well, here in fact lies why we have different perceptions. I did not see anything like that at the rally in Chicago. Maybe a few people with signs comparing Obama and Pelosi to communists (Which is really no different than anti-war people comparing Bush and Cheney to Satan). But nothing racist.

    ----

    To HinkPlanner...yeah you're right. It isn't a party. It is a group of people angry about the government. Just like the anti-war rallies were a group of people angry about the war. Not everyone agrees in what the best solution is to the problem, and some don't even have any to offer. But, I think people have a right to be angry and if they want to express their frustrations, I say go ahead. And even if the Tea Party was more organized and you had to pay money to join the party and pledge not say or do anything offensive, you're still going to have some wackjobs show up and rain on the parade. It's like that with any rally, protest, or party. In fact, if the Tea Party were to splinter, what you'd be left with would be microcosms of all of today's major American political parties/ideologies. The Tea Party is a unification of people from these parties/ideologies that are just fed up with the federal government. And I think it will have an impact...a lot of incumbents from both sides are likely to be voted out in November. And maybe the new guys will take heed and stop growing the deficit and stop growing the size of the federal government.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
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  14. #114
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by TexanOkie View post
    I think that describes any mass of people, period, especially groups of Americans.

    Off-topic:

    This statement peaked my curiosity. Do you take issue with the Gadsden Flag itself and its history/symbolism, or with its present use by groups who don't know/understand its history and symbolism? What research, facts or history about the Gadsden Flag led you to take issue with it, if that's the case? Or is it only it's present uses that you take issue with? I'm honestly curious - not trying to argue anything with this inquiry. I'm just wondering what I (and a lot of others, I'm sure) may or may not know about the flag.
    Its current usage. I have complete respect for the flag in general.
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  15. #115
    Cyburbian CJC's avatar
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    The complaints about deficit spending still just baffle me, but whatever, I'm just completely on the other side of the fence on that one. I can get behind restructuring government revenue and spending, but the fact that the government is currently (or ever) spending more than it makes is only relevant when you look at the entire situation (current, past, future).

    I'd be all for the Fed directly monetizing a couple trillion of our debt now, just to stave off the deflationary spiral that we're falling into, and to throw some velocity behind the money supply. Too much capital is sitting on the sidelines and doing nothing. Since it looks like the Obama administration can't/won't do anything about that (in spite of desperate pleas from the economic team - unfortunately the political team is winning the argument for the moment), it's time for the Fed to step forward with some bold action.

    I'm pretty appalled at the seeming apathy coming from all sides (Republicans, Democrats, the Fed, etc) on our unemployment situation. Long term high unemployment is going to have disastrous results that will be felt for decades, I fear.
    Two wrongs don't necessarily make a right, but three lefts do.

  16. #116
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by CJC View post
    The complaints about deficit spending still just baffle me, .
    With the exception of a relatively small number of people, I believe all of these complaints are not in earnest.
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

  17. #117
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    Well, here's some news... Congress passed finance reform! Woo Hoo!







    Oh crap, the Wall Street boys are already working on ways around it.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailybeast/9...tsmartcongress
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  18. #118
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    I'm Canadian, so I have little say. Well no say .

    But I can cheer from the sidelines!!!

    All I want to say is GO Ron Paul and his Campain For Liberty!!!!

  19. #119
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Mastiff View post
    Well, here's some news... Congress passed finance reform! Woo Hoo!







    Oh crap, the Wall Street boys are already working on ways around it.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailybeast/9...tsmartcongress
    Like everything else lately, this bill is watered down so much that if anything it will hurt, rather than help.

    Crikey, even after the financial meltdown they can't even get their act together to pass anything worthwhile.

    ooohhhh. Obama got another win because his bill passed. Stupid Obama. Stupid congress. What's the point of a bill that doesn't address the actual problem. At this point I think I'm going to vote for republicans from now on. If our country is going to heck in a handbasket let's at least do it quickly. Jeebus.
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  20. #120
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    ^^
    Worse yet, it lards down loads of truly useless, wasteful regulations that will snow under smaller 'community' banks, it will virtually eliminate things like free checking, 'cashback' deals on debit and credit cards, etc, and has no text at all in its several thousand pages that address the real problems, especially 'Fanny and Freddie' and all of their disastrous problems and government mandates - including the 'Community Reinvestment Act' and its insidious tentacles that date from the Carter and Clinton years.

    Mortgage and small-business loans will be very difficult for the most credit-worthy individuals to get, too.



    Mike

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally posted by mgk920 View post
    ^^
    Worse yet, it lards down loads of truly useless, wasteful regulations that will snow under smaller 'community' banks, it will virtually eliminate things like free checking, 'cashback' deals on debit and credit cards, etc, and has no text at all in its several thousand pages that address the real problems, especially 'Fanny and Freddie' and all of their disastrous problems and government mandates - including the 'Community Reinvestment Act' and its insidious tentacles that date from the Carter and Clinton years.

    Mortgage and small-business loans will be very difficult for the most credit-worthy individuals to get, too.



    Mike
    Mainly the GOP's fault.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...308251030.html

    Quote - "Mr. Brown said opposition came from members of both parties pressured, he believes, by Wall Street lobbyists. Democrats were squeamish, but the rejection was most pronounced by Republicans."

    Emphasis mine.
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  22. #122
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    I wasn't going to go there, and still won't. Until we make congress get their damn hands out of every pocket they can find, none of them want to fix it.

    If this administration really wanted change, or any other for that matter, you start with lobby and donation reforms. Health care? Not while the money flows in from big insurance... Finance? Not while Wall Street is paying... Environment? Not while oil companies own the politicians...

    Washington needs a CTR-ALT-DEL button.
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  23. #123
    Cyburbian Duke Of Dystopia's avatar
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    Apathetic voters who don't seem to give a damn about the largest responsibility they have, to vote! are more of a problem than any big money that exists.

    There are a LOT more 20 year old people than there are 60 year old people.

    The fault isn't all with big money. Freaking nonvoting civic retards!
    I can't deliver UTOPIA, but I can create a HELL for you to LIVE in :)DoD:(

  24. #124
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Duke Of Dystopia View post
    Apathetic voters who don't seem to give a damn about the largest responsibility they have, to vote! are more of a problem than any big money that exists.

    There are a LOT more 20 year old people than there are 60 year old people.

    The fault isn't all with big money. Freaking nonvoting civic retards!
    I completely disagree. There is already enough ill-informed people voting as it is. The majority of Americans are idiots.
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

  25. #125
    Cyburbian Duke Of Dystopia's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner View post
    I completely disagree. There is already enough ill-informed people voting as it is. The majority of Americans are idiots.
    Didn't you just argue for voting with the GOP to get human decency over with as fast as you can?
    I can't deliver UTOPIA, but I can create a HELL for you to LIVE in :)DoD:(

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