The First 2012 Presidential Election Thread

[Hink]

I'll be too busy watching a Venezuelan compete for the Triple Crown.

I thought Obama was Kenyan?

[Whose Yur Planner]

If you don't watch the debate, why do you hate America ?

The debates rank right up there with NASCAR for me. The only reason you watch is to see the wrecks.

[michaelskis]

I am not sure if I will watch or not. I still don't know if I will vote for Romney or Johnson. Might be Romney if he can layout specific details on how he will fix the economy... unless those details are as stupid as Obama's.

When W. ran against Kerry, the girl who I was dating at the time was an extremest liberal so we turned the debate into a drinking game if they used particular phrases or gestures. The next day was not so fun...

[wahday]

I'll probably watch tonight a) to be a good citizen and b) because my 12 year old is interested in the process. Should be...fun. I guess that's what you'd call it...

[Tide]

I'm so mixed on watching the debate tonight. I feel like it's very late in the year (can't remember prior elections). There are 3 scheduled over the next 4 weeks, is that right or is it 2 presidential and I veep?
I figure there's only like a 25% chance I would come out of the debate feeling better about anything than I do this morning. Either Obama is going to do above average to which the media will praise and get a hard on about or Romney is going to say something dumb and only give the pundits something to dig his hole deeper. Only way I would leave feeling better is to have something happen which won't, and that's strip party rhetoric away and actually talk about the candidates are people and leadership or lack thereof, but we know that won't happen.

My prediction, at best it's a push (50/50) - unless Romney kills it or Obama falters but like I said, I only give either scenario a 25% overall chance of happening. 50% chance they tie and 25% chance Obama nails it and Romney falters.


As for the "is America better off poll" - somethings just can't be measured in numbers yet we still try.

[Mastiff]

I am not sure if I will watch or not. I still don't know if I will vote for Romney or Johnson. Might be Romney if he can layout specific details on how he will fix the economy... unless those details are as stupid as Obama's.

What I find stupid is any politician, or anyone really, that believes an economy with a fiat currency and a deficit can be fixed at all. It can be propped up for awhile longer, but not fixed. Every fiat currency since the Romans first tried it, has failed. The average life span is something like 27 years, and we started down this road in 1971. Transfer powers back to the states that must have balanced budgets, reduce all Federal spending to the bare bones, and get back on a representative monetary system. Barring that, this ponzi scheme known as the U.S. dollar, will collapse, and hyperinflation will follow.

Think the bankers that run our government will let that happen before they squeeze every last bit of wealth they can and convert it to commodities so they don't take the fall? Neither do I.

"If you don't hold it, you don't own it" ~ Ponce

[michaelskis]

What I find stupid is any politician, or anyone really, that believes an economy with a fiat currency and a deficit can be fixed at all. It can be propped up for awhile longer, but not fixed. Every fiat currency since the Romans first tried it, has failed. The average life span is something like 27 years, and we started down this road in 1971. Transfer powers back to the states that must have balanced budgets, reduce all Federal spending to the bare bones, and get back on a representative monetary system. Barring that, this ponzi scheme known as the U.S. dollar, will collapse, and hyperinflation will follow.

Think the bankers that run our government will let that happen before they squeeze every last bit of wealth they can and convert it to commodities so they don't take the fall? Neither do I.

"If you don't hold it, you don't own it" ~ Ponce

Yep.... that would be the economic policy of most of DC... including Obama.

On a side note, this Dr. and Lawyer sums up Obama care quite well...


The sentence at 1:14 is...

"So let me get this straight. This is a long sentence.
We are going to be gifted with a healthcare plan that we are forced to purchase, and fined if we don't, which reportedly covers ten million more people without adding a single new doctor, but provides for sixteen thousand new IRS agents,written by a committee whose chairman doesn't understand it, passed by congress, that didn't read it, but exempted themselves from it, and signed by a president who smokes, with funding administered by a treasury chief,who didn't pay hos taxes, for which we will be taxed for four years before any benefits take effect, by a government which has bankrupted Social Security and Medicare, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese and financed by a country that is broke.
So what the blank could possibly go wrong?"

[Mastiff]

Yep.... that would be the economic policy of most of DC... including Obama.

So knowing that, why would you vote anything but Libertarian? And I don't call it a policy, it's economic suicide. It's not if it will happen, just a matter of when.

[imaplanner]

China had a fiat currency for hundreds of years.

So long as the US dollar continues to be the global standard our currency is not going to collapse. You all so crazy.

[Whose Yur Planner]

Yep.... that would be the economic policy of most of DC... including Obama.

On a side note, this Dr. and Lawyer sums up Obama care quite well...


The sentence at 1:14 is...

Soooo, your solution is to let health care cost sky rocket. Those can't afford it or whose employer won't provide it can either go to the emergency room or they are out of luck.

[michaelskis]

So knowing that, why would you vote anything but Libertarian? And I don't call it a policy, it's economic suicide. It's not if it will happen, just a matter of when.

Do you think that the libertarian will have a chance to win? If not it is a vote for Obama.

[Tide]

Those can't afford it or whose employer won't provide it can either go to the emergency room or they are out of luck.

How is that ANY different than it is TODAY?

Edit: I may have misread your short statement - I don't know what timeline you're talking about and assume future tense, hard to tell.

[Whose Yur Planner]

How is that ANY different than it is TODAY?

Edit: I may have misread your short statement - I don't know what timeline you're talking about and assume future tense, hard to tell.

No problem-it was my response to mskiis usual rant that there is nothing right about ACA. Without a replacement for ACA, we go with our current system which is what I described. Sorry for the confusion.

[michaelskis]

When W. ran against Kerry, the girl who I was dating at the time was an extremest liberal so we turned the debate into a drinking game if they used particular phrases or gestures. The next day was not so fun...

Oh look, here are rules...

No problem-it was my response to mskiis usual rant that there is nothing right about ACA. Without a replacement for ACA, we go with our current system which is what I described. Sorry for the confusion.

Soooo... what would I do? First of all, I would put it in the hands of the states as it is not a constitutional right for the federal government to regulate it. Then I would encourage each Governor to establish a health task force to provide standards to encourage preventative healthcare. This would begin with school lunches or any other government sponsored food. If it is not healthy, it does not go out. Finally, health insurance and healthcare would be left to the private sector.

[Hink]

I enjoy the whining of the Conservative media (i.e. Fox News, Drudge Report, Wall Street Journal, etc.) especially, when they cover the same stuff as the "lame"stream media. *Picture me saying it like Sarah Palin does... with contempt and seedy anger.*

This story though is pretty funny.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...deo/?hpt=hp_t1

I know that the "lame"stream media doesn't need to defend itself, as many organizations are pretty fair and balanced - with the exception of say Fox and MSNBC. I think it is funny thought that CNN goes to such lengths to completely discredit this factually inaccurate whining by the far right. I am sure this will be played over and over again on Fox and by Hannity and the other drones, but for today, CNN you are "winning". *Now picture me as Charlie Sheen doing my best Sarah Palin impression*.

[Mastiff]

China had a fiat currency for hundreds of years.

Not exactly...

http://www.garynorth.com/public/6915.cfm

So long as the US dollar continues to be the global standard our currency is not going to collapse. You all so crazy.

I don't think that's true, and I'm not the only one, either. But hey, you keep that hope alive!

Do you think that the libertarian will have a chance to win? If not it is a vote for Obama.

As long as people keep spouting this, we will never get a third party. Vote for who will do the best job, and quit letting people tell you you're "wasting" your vote!

[michaelskis]

As long as people keep spouting this, we will never get a third party. Vote for who will do the best job, and quit letting people tell you you're "wasting" your vote!

That is a very good point. I just fear that 4 more years of Obama might put our economic situation past the point of no return.

[Blide]

The average life span is something like 27 years, and we started down this road in 1971.

I see this tossed around by Libertarians as a matter of fact but for the life of me I can't find the source of this claim. However from what I've been able to find, the claim does seem pretty dubious.

[imaplanner]

That is a very good point. I just fear that 4 more years of Obama might put our economic situation past the point of no return.

How so? debt? Jobs? Taxes? Could you be a bit more specific about what your concern is?

[michaelskis]

How so? debt? Jobs? Taxes? Could you be a bit more specific about what your concern is?

• Less people working today than when he took office.
• The national debt is over 16 Trillion and anticipated deficit spending for another 4 years.
• Obamacare is an infringement on religious rights and personal freedoms.
• He stated that he would veto any pork spending bill... he lied.
• He stated that he would have a balanced budget within two years... he lied.
• He said that the economy would recover within 3 years or it would be a one term proposition... he lied.
• There are more Americans on food stamps today than at any point in history.
• He has allowed the federal government to invest in several solar power/ alternative energy companies with little or any fiscal review... 6 of them went bankrupt.
• If Bush tax cuts are repealed, everyone's taxes will go up.
• He rather go on TV talk shows instead of meet with foreign heads of state.
• Programs to enable the poor have increased while employment opportunities have decreased. It is like giving a drunk a bottle of whiskey to help him get sober.
• His policies have further opened the door for illegal immigration which makes the US less safe.
• His administration ignored requests from the Libyan Diplomat then blamed the 9/11/12 attacks on a movie...
• He skips out on national security meetings.
• He actually thinks that the federal government can spend it's ways out of this economic recession.

Should I keep going?

I see this tossed around by Libertarians as a matter of fact but for the life of me I can't find the source of this claim. However from what I've been able to find, the claim does seem pretty dubious.

It is also mentioned somewhere in the book "The Theory of Money and Credit" by Ludwig von Mises.

[Raf]

• Less people working today than when he took office.
  
  Do you have a source? Or is this just another talking point? Jobs have been added since he took office in the midst of the greatest economic collapse since the depression.
• The national debt is over 16 Trillion and anticipated deficit spending for another 4 years.
  
  And he is the sole bearer of this? He inherited much of the debt from the previous administration. No matter who takes office, deficit spending will continue without a) cuts in services and b) increase revenue.
• Obamacare is an infringement on religious rights and personal freedoms
  
  How so? And what about those lacking coverage, isn't that an infringement on inalienable rights?
• He stated that he would veto any pork spending bill... he lied
  
  And what politican doesn't pander, it's called give and take. Pork spending is everywhere, for Christsake, what planning project have you not worked on that didn't involve "pork" federal spending.
  
• He stated that he would have a balanced budget within two years... he lied.
  Umm..source?
  
• He said that the economy would recover within 3 years or it would be a one term proposition... he lied.
  
  He said than the following ""You know, a year from now, I think people are going to see that we're starting to make some progress but there is still going to be some pain out there. If I don't have this done in three years, then there's going to be a one-term proposition." i.e. more than likely he will be a one term president, as in he would be voted out of office.
  
• There are more Americans on food stamps today than at any point in history.
  
  Due to relaxed rules (which states can change, such as California), more people than ever have and can qualify for food stamps. Wage stagnation+inflation=more qualified families for food stamps, thanks for the talking point.
  
• He has allowed the federal government to invest in several solar power/ alternative energy companies with little or any fiscal review... 6 of them went bankrupt.
  
  Great faux news talking point. Do you know why they went bankrupt? Let me tell you. Chinese and other Asian companies dropped a whole bunch of cheap solar panels on the market, thus the price dropped, to which american companies could not sell at a cheaper rate or move inventory. Classic example of a economic "dump". Try again.
  
• If Bush tax cuts are repealed, everyone's taxes will go up.
  The president does not make taxes go up and down, congress has that ability. The "R"s won't comprise. Our taxes are at an historic lowpoint in our history of taxation. What more do you want?
  
• He rather go on TV talk shows instead of meet with foreign heads of state
  Meh, I'll give you that one.
  
• Programs to enable the poor have increased while employment opportunities have decreased.
  
  How have employment opportunities increased? Seems to me employee output is at an all time high. I am a business owner and it takes X amount of money to invest in an new employee, but if I can increase current production from my existing staff, I will, so aren't I practicing basic economic principles here trumpeted by the "R"s?
  
• His policies have further opened the door for illegal immigration which makes the US less safe.
  
  Illegal immigration is at its lowest in years under Obama. We have a broken immigration system. Congress needs to take the lead in fixing it.
  
• His administration ignored requests from the Libyan Diplomat then blamed the 9/11/12 attacks on a movie...
  
• He skips out on national security meetings.
  
  Ok...
• He actually thinks that the federal government can spend it's ways out of this economic recession.
  
  We did, it's called World War II and WPA projects from the Great Depression era.
  

I am not giving the man an a plus or anything, but things have gotten better, just not an in instant oatmeal society kind of way.

[Mastiff]

I see this tossed around by Libertarians as a matter of fact but for the life of me I can't find the source of this claim. However from what I've been able to find, the claim does seem pretty dubious.

This is the place they did the study:

http://dollardaze.org/blog/?post_id=00405

It isn't perfect, but it paints a grim picture.

[ColoGI]

[LIST][*]Less people working today than when he took office.

Should I keep going?

It is also mentioned somewhere in the book "The Theory of Money and Credit" by Ludwig von Mises.

Don't keep going with wrong "facts" and ...er..."econ" from far-fringe Austrians that fails to take reality into account.

[Tide]

Well, my 25% hope came true. Romney came across much more Presidential and prepared while Obama was unprepared and underwhelmed.

Also, for the next debate I'm drinking every time Obama says "Uh". I would have been drunk in the first 30 minutes.

[ColoGI]

Well, my 25% hope came true. Romney came across much more Presidential and prepared while Obama was unprepared and underwhelmed.

Also, for the next debate I'm drinking every time Obama says "Uh". I would have been drunk in the first 30 minutes.

Kenyan cain't talk wit no teleprompter!

Nonetheless, unprepared? I have a fantastic real estate opportunity for you!