The First 2012 Presidential Election Thread

[Tide]

Nonetheless, unprepared? I have a fantastic real estate opportunity for you!

I expect nothing less from you.

[Hink]

Personally, it seemed to me like Romney "won" overall, but both had some pretty good zingers...

Romney was not very good at telling the truth, but he came across as really getting his side of the story. Obama just seemed flat, he stumbled numerous times (which he really never does) and never really "got" Romney in his lies.

I think it will come off as a win for Romney, mainly because he didn't screw up. I don't think he got much across in terms of policy - he will have to explain a lot of his flip flopping lines last night too - but he did try and better define what he would do.

I look forward to Saturday Night Live. My hope is that they have a sketch on Romney's first day in office...


ps. I like that Romney wore a red tie and Obama wore a blue tie.... very cleaver...

[ColoGI]

I expect nothing less from you.

True - my standard "if you truly believe X, then I have a bridge to sell you" line might be overused. I should mix it up a bit.

----------

Nevertheless, for people who don't have command of the facts or policy, or who need corporate media to tell them what happened, it could be said that Rmoney had the upper hand. He surely controlled the event and went harder. But his lies were exposed and his mendacity was there for all to see. Obama teased out the lies and misleading positions, surely, but he didn't use them to inflict a serious wound on his opponent. Its as if he was playing rope-a-dope and never got off the ropes - a couple good body blows and the corporate media wouldn't be fawning all over Rmoney. I can't imagine how Faux is sputtering this result...

[Tide]

True - my standard "if you truly believe X, then I have a bridge to sell you" line might be overused. I should mix it up a bit.

No, I was going more with your sentiment of delusion rather than the words you chose. The fact that someone can't objectively see another side of things without being delusional, to you, is incomprehensible.

[hilldweller]

Romney came across much more Presidential and prepared while Obama was unprepared and underwhelmed.

I agree. Romney actually looked like he wanted to be President, Obama looked like he was annoyed to be there.

[michaelskis]

[LIST][*]Less people working today than when he took office.

>>>>> SNIP <<<<<<<

I am not giving the man an a plus or anything, but things have gotten better, just not an in instant oatmeal society kind of way.

Just because you make the accusations that I am wrong does not mean anything. I have posted videos of Obama in his own words elsewhere on this post. I am not going to argue with you about this.



The biggest looser last night was Jim Lehrer. It was very sad as both candidates ignored the rules and did their own thing. Overall, I thought that Romney appeared more comfortable up there than Obama did, and was a bit more prepared. I still have not heard anything that gives me hope for the future though.

[Blide]

It seems like it was a conscious decision for Obama to play it safe in that he used none of the attack lines his campaign frequently uses. I do think Obama was just trying to feel things out but was ultimately unprepared for how aggressive Romney would be. The next debates will be harder for Romney though due to the subject area (social issues and foreign policy) and Obama's additional preparation.

I doubt this debate is a game changer but it certainly kept Romney in the running. I just don't think there are enough undecided voters left to significantly alter the course of this election. Neither candidate did anything meaningful enough to sway the decided voters. This election is looking more and more similar to the 2004 one.

And yeah that moderator was terrible. He might as well not even been there seeing as both candidates just ignored him.

[ColoGI]

No, I was going more with your sentiment of delusion rather than the words you chose. The fact that someone can't objectively see another side of things without being delusional, to you, is incomprehensible.

You are commenting on something I neither wrote nor implied. To restate: I simply used a familiar expression to illustrate my opinion that if you thought POTUS was unprepared, then there is a large amount of information missing somewhere. You can find plenty of...erm...media "analysis" that complains about "wonky" debate and too many "numbers". The Denver Post fishwrap is full of complaints about having to think too much about what the POTUS said.

[WSU MUP Student]

• Less people working today than when he took office....

This one is incorrect.

According to the BLS, there were 132,837,000 total nonfarm jobs in the United States in February 2009 (Obama's first full month in office) and 133,300,000 jobs in August of this year. That's an increase of 463,000 jobs (or 0.3%). It's a small relative increase but it is an increase nonetheless. Those numbers are the seasonally adjusted numbers; the non-seasonally adjusted numbers show an increase of 1,778,000 jobs (1.4%) over the same period.

If you look only at the private sector, jobs have grown by 1.0% (seasonally adjusted) and 3.8% (non-seasonally adjusted).

[btrage]

It's hard to debate lies.

[michaelskis]

This one is incorrect.

According to the BLS, there were 132,837,000 total nonfarm jobs in the United States in February 2009 (Obama's first full month in office) and 133,300,000 jobs in August of this year. That's an increase of 463,000 jobs (or 0.3%). It's a small relative increase but it is an increase nonetheless. Those numbers are the seasonally adjusted numbers; the non-seasonally adjusted numbers show an increase of 1,778,000 jobs (1.4%) over the same period.

If you look only at the private sector, jobs have grown by 1.0% (seasonally adjusted) and 3.8% (non-seasonally adjusted).

You are correct. I was wrong. Last time I looked at the numbers was April when that was the case.

[wahday]

It seems like it was a conscious decision for Obama to play it safe in that he used none of the attack lines his campaign frequently uses. I do think Obama was just trying to feel things out but was ultimately unprepared for how aggressive Romney would be. The next debates will be harder for Romney though due to the subject area (social issues and foreign policy) and Obama's additional preparation.

I doubt this debate is a game changer but it certainly kept Romney in the running. I just don't think there are enough undecided voters left to significantly alter the course of this election. Neither candidate did anything meaningful enough to sway the decided voters. This election is looking more and more similar to the 2004 one.

And yeah that moderator was terrible. He might as well not even been there seeing as both candidates just ignored him.

This is a great analysis/summary. My take on things exactly.

[imaplanner]

It's hard to debate lies.

I am left with the impression that the truth doesn't really matter much to people anymore. For anyone who has been paying attention to Romney's proposals and statements, he flat out lied about his own proposals and plans. Obama isn't against misrepresenting things but Romney takes this to a new level. I mean, wow. And nobody really cares.

[michaelskis]

I am left with the impression that the truth doesn't really matter much to people anymore. For anyone who has been paying attention to Romney's proposals and statements, he flat out lied about his own proposals and plans. Obama isn't against misrepresenting things but Romney takes this to a new level. I mean, wow. And nobody really cares.

What lies did he tell?

[imaplanner]

What lies did he tell?

Well he outright lied about jobs numbers and the deficit and some of Obama's policies- but that is to be expected I guess. (Obama did not double the deficit, half of green energy companies funded through the stimulus did not fail, I could go on). Here is just one of many factchecks on the debate.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolit...medium=twitter

But what I find more eggregious is he lied about his own proposals. He said his plan would get rid of pre-existing conditions - which is absolutely the opposite of his plan and his campaign. http://www.mittromney.com/issues/health-care He said he wouldn't give the wealthy a tax cut- which is absolutely the opposite of his plan. http://www.mittromney.com/issues/tax

His own website contradicts what he said in the debate about his policies.

[Blide]

I wouldn't necessarily say Romney lied but he played very loose with the facts and flip-flopped significantly on his policy positions. The latter is what tripped Obama up.

[Hink]

I wouldn't necessarily say Romney lied but he played very loose with the facts and flip-flopped significantly on his policy positions. The latter is what tripped Obama up.

I think this will help Romney is the short term, but hurt him in the long run. It is really how Romney has played most of this campaign. He says what is political expedient at the time and then goes back and tries to defend what he said as something he has always believed.

Abortion.
Gay Marriage.
Almost all Social Issues.
Tax Policy.
Healthcare.

You name it he has flip flopped when it was politically the "right" thing to do. My hope is that if he is elected he will go back to the moderate that he was in Massachusetts. Otherwise, his first day will not get much of any of his hopes and dreams accomplished.

[ColoGI]

I wouldn't necessarily say Romney lied but he played very loose with the facts and flip-flopped significantly on his policy positions. The latter is what tripped Obama up.

He flat out lied about two dozen times and was mendacious/obfuscatory for about half the 90 minutes. He lied about green jobs, mendacious about the $716M, mendacious about pivoting to the center all of a sudden, lied about his budget's effects, lied aobut getting rid of medicare/Rmoneycare, mendacious about clean coal, lied about preexisting conditions, lied about not wanting to cut taxes for the rich, mendacious about LyinRyan's role in killing B-S, Obamacare costing 2500.00, BHO's military cuts (that LyinRyan supported),

yada.

And I agree that BHO should have been ready for an aggressive, lying Repub trying to keep control of the narrative and answers. That is their special trick, Rmoney has been lying through his teeth for months, and why he didn't have an answer for that is beyond me.

[michaelskis]

Wow... Al Gore Blames Denver's High Altitude For Obama's Dismal Debate Performance. Are you kidding me?

Maybe this theory works for outdoor athletic events, but an indoor debate in a climate controlled venue?

LINK TO STORY

[imaplanner]

He flat out lied about two dozen times and was mendacious/obfuscatory for about half the 90 minutes. He lied about green jobs, mendacious about the $716M, mendacious about pivoting to the center all of a sudden, lied about his budget's effects, lied aobut getting rid of medicare/Rmoneycare, mendacious about clean coal, lied about preexisting conditions, lied about not wanting to cut taxes for the rich, mendacious about LyinRyan's role in killing B-S, Obamacare costing 2500.00, BHO's military cuts (that LyinRyan supported),

yada.

And I agree that BHO should have been ready for an aggressive, lying Repub trying to keep control of the narrative and answers. That is their special trick, Rmoney has been lying through his teeth for months, and why he didn't have an answer for that is beyond me.

I think misleading charges against the other candidate is that something to be expected and Obama is quite misleading as well. But since when do you have a health care plan that is specifically to get rid of the prohibition on pre-existing conditions (as you have even said many times and is on your own website) and then you say that your plan won't get rid of the prohibition. Since when do you propose a 20% across the board tax cut and then say at the debate you aren't proposing to cut taxes? The guy straight lied about his own proposals. That's what really has me stirred up. That and the fact that nobody cares that this guy straight up lied about his own proposals.

[btrage]

People keep claiming that Obama had a poor performance. I don't think that's entirely accurate. I think he did fine.

I just think that Romney far exceeded everyone's expectations because of how poorly his campaigning has went.

Romney doing better than expected does not equal "poor performance by Obama".

[hilldweller]

People keep claiming that Obama had a poor performance. I don't think that's entirely accurate. I think he did fine.

I just think that Romney far exceeded everyone's expectations because of how poorly his campaigning has went.

Romney doing better than expected does not equal "poor performance by Obama".

I thought it was an awful performance by Obama. To me, he came across as befuddled and lethargic at times, and did a poor job of defending his record.

Romney came out swinging while Obama looked like he was just wanted to play nice. How could he not bring up the fact that Romney opposed the auto bailout? Especially when Ohio is such a critical swing state in this election and has seen an uptick in manufacturing jobs as a result of the bailout.

[ColoGI]

That and the fact that nobody cares that this guy straight up lied about his own proposals.

That gets me too, but golly he won the debate!!! The Reality-Based Community has little or no purpose, seemingly, in the corporate media. Krugman asked this today:

The question now is whether the revelation that he was making stuff up matters. Is our system shallow enough — and in particular, are our media so much into appearances rather than reality — that it’s OK to lie to win an argument, with no further consequences?

Again, it comes down to there being a market for being lied to.

[Blide]

Obama got a favorable jobs report and now Republicans are saying he manipulated the data

[Tide]

Obama got a favorable jobs report and now Republicans are saying he manipulated the data

Obama didn't get a favorable jobs report. America got a favorable jobs report.