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Poll results: What do you think the outcome of tomorrow's presidential election will be?

Voters
26. You may not vote on this poll
  • Obama wins electoral and popular vote

    20 76.92%
  • Romney wins electoral and popular vote

    2 7.69%
  • Gary Johnson wins electoral and popular vote :thumb:

    0 0%
  • Obama wins electoral vote, Romney wins popular vote

    4 15.38%
  • Romney wins electoral vote, Obama wins popular vote

    0 0%
  • Obama and Romney tie in the electoral vote

    0 0%
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Thread: The First 2012 Presidential Election Thread

  1. #1451
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Well, I am going to vote for Romney. Johnson is not on the Michigan Ballot.
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

  2. #1452
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    Well, I am going to vote for Romney. Johnson is not on the Michigan Ballot.
    Well, Romney is a johnson in once sense of the word...
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
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  3. #1453
    Cyburbian ColoGI's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Tide View post

    As Hink said, I think Biden's only goal was to go in an be a 180 from what Obama was in his last debate. Come out swinging even if they miss the mark be aggressive - I thought he overdid it though, especially with the eye rolling, smiling inappropriately, and harumphing.
    Being polite and non-uppity to point out their copious lies and mendacity and tendention didn't work. Pointing out how most of what they say is hogwash by being calm and stating the facts calmly didn't work.

    So Biden not only looked like Average Joe, he threw that baldfaced liar off his game and exposed the multiple weaknesses in their arguments. If Rmoney tries these same stale lines again, he is going to get hammered, so his campaign has to re-tool their tendentious message. In a week. Plus, the robot will be off his game by having to be near ordinary people and look at them. Biden did a lot last night.
    -------
    Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.

  4. #1454
    Cyburbian
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    So Biden not only looked like Average Joe, he threw that baldfaced liar off his game and exposed the multiple weaknesses in their arguments. If Rmoney tries these same stale lines again, he is going to get hammered, so his campaign has to re-tool their tendentious message. In a week. Plus, the robot will be off his game by having to be near ordinary people and look at them. Biden did a lot last night.

    Your paragraph above says more about you than it does about the two debaters last night.

    People respond differently to debaters and the response is going to be predetermined by your existing political views and attitudes towards different types of politicians.

    For me, I found Biden typical of the good ol' boy politician (Democrat or Republic) from the establishment who's been in office for decades. He had a bright smile, a freshly scrubbed face and an overall smarmy expression typical of someone who thinks "I've worked really hard for the people for decades therefore I know better than you so don't question me." As a result his mannerism was a turnoff, more so than what he actually said.

    Ryan was a geek. An ideological geek. You can sense there's a degree of inflexibility in him that may be worrisome.

    Both candidates played very well for their respective bases. Biden was very much firing up the traditional Democrat base - "we gotta save X program, we gotta work to help people blah blah" and Ryan aimed straight at the Republican base with his "we have major problems, we need to fix them now blah blah." Both sides offered relatively little details about how they'd actually go about doing so and they also were weak in addressing the rebuttals. Ryan was correct to point out that any tax increase from the expired tax cuts is nowhere near enough to address the growing deficit, and Biden was correct to point out the weaknesses in the Romney plan to reduce taxes yet without increasing the deficit.

    All in all, I found the foreign policy questions fascinating. The moderator is a foreign policy hawk so perhaps it's understandable why foreign policy dominated the debates more than the domestic issues. The first question, in which Biden stumbled and more and less admitted to a major weakness in the administration's support and reaction to the Libyan killing. No protection force for the ambassador? WTF?! White House didn't know a request for protection had been made? WTF?! This isn't the ambassador to Austria, but the ambassador to Libya! Not good.

    My conclusion: the debate wasn't a game changer. It pleased both bases but the middle ground / independents were alerted to the flaws in each candidates' platforms, although they were also presented with a relatively clear cut choice between two ideological approach to government. So I'd call it a draw.

  5. #1455
    Cyburbian ColoGI's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by PennPlanner View post
    So Biden not only looked like Average Joe, he threw that baldfaced liar off his game and exposed the multiple weaknesses in their arguments. If Rmoney tries these same stale lines again, he is going to get hammered, so his campaign has to re-tool their tendentious message. In a week. Plus, the robot will be off his game by having to be near ordinary people and look at them. Biden did a lot last night.

    Your paragraph above says more about you than it does about the two debaters last night.
    Well, I hope your view is in the minority - if the 5% of "undecideds" can't see that Ryan is a baldfaced liar who was thrown off his game when his canned lines didn't work, then they won't pay attention in the next debate when (hopefully) the POTUS has an answer for the multitudinous Rmoney lies and misleading canned lines. If the 5% can't figure out that the challenger's campaign is nothing but flim-flam, then Houston, We Have a Problem.

    During his 1956 presidential campaign, a woman called out to [Adlai] Stevenson "Senator, you have the vote of every thinking person!" Stevenson called back "That's not enough, madam, we need a majority!"
    -------
    Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.

  6. #1456
    Cyburbian
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    Quote Originally posted by PennPlanner View post
    The first question, in which Biden stumbled and more and less admitted to a major weakness in the administration's support and reaction to the Libyan killing.
    It seems like Republicans accidentally shed some light on the reason why there's been a muddled response on the Benghazi attacks. In short, the Benghazi consulate was also a CIA base. It explains why the consulate was operating in such a dangerous area and it also explains why the State Department hasn't been able to give a detailed assessment of the security situation there.

    With that said, I definitely think are some problems that the attacks raised that need to be addressed.

  7. #1457
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    Have the debates on in the background.

    Obama's swinging and landing punches. Dude's on fire.
    Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

  8. #1458
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dan View post
    Have the debates on in the background.

    Obama's swinging and landing punches. Dude's on fire.
    I agree. I think Obama is going to come out the victor. Romney had some good points, but he still just has the major issue of never really standing for anything. It was easy for Obama to pick a time that Romney was for or against something... because on most topics Romney supported it before he was opposed to it.

    Having your morals, values, understanding of government change over time is expected, but it is somewhat odd that most of his "democratic" or more central policy views are now in line with the "conservative" value system.

    I would say Obama won by 3 punches. Especially with the pension uppercut, and the "gas prices are bad because the economy sucked because of your policies" right hook.
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  9. #1459
    Cyburbian Plus
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    who has binders full of plans ?
    Oddball
    Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves?
    Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here?
    Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
    From Kelly's Heroes (1970)


    Are you sure you're not hurt ?
    No. Just some parts wake up faster than others.
    Broke parts take a little longer, though.
    From Electric Horseman (1979)

  10. #1460
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hink View post
    I agree. I think Obama is going to come out the victor. Romney had some good points, but he still just has the major issue of never really standing for anything. It was easy for Obama to pick a time that Romney was for or against something... because on most topics Romney supported it before he was opposed to it.

    Having your morals, values, understanding of government change over time is expected, but it is somewhat odd that most of his "democratic" or more central policy views are now in line with the "conservative" value system.

    I would say Obama won by 3 punches. Especially with the pension uppercut, and the "gas prices are bad because the economy sucked because of your policies" right hook.
    What I found most amusing, was that every time Obama said he was for something, Romney would say he was for it as well, even when most educated voters know he is not. When Romney does this, he doesn't really paint himself as anything other than the status quo. I realize he's trying to pull in independent voters, but I wish we would've seen more of a contrast.
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  11. #1461
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    I did not see the debate because of a PC meeting, but I had breakfast with a buddy of mine who said that it was a good debate. Romney was the same as the first debate and that Obama actually showed up this time. He said that he would classify it as a draw, but he noted that the moderator was very bias and even injected comments into the debate. I personally think that is wrong. He also commented that he could tell that both candidates lied at least half of the time. My guess is the other guy was talking the other half of the time. The fact check people should have fun with this one today.
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

  12. #1462
    moderator in moderation Suburb Repairman's avatar
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    Both candidates need to get with debate coaches to work on their "pivot," because the clips I saw were pretty bad. Based on what I saw, I'm glad I was stuck at a Council meeting because I don't think I would have seen/heard anything new. One thing that has become abundantly clear is that these two genuinely dislike each other.

    "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

    - Herman Göring at the Nuremburg trials (thoughts on democracy)

  13. #1463
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    You can tell Romney is familiar with talking down to people. He tried to bully the moderator and came off as a jerk. It was almost like he was trying to moderate the debate himself. Obama clearly did better in this debate, but Romney was able to diffuse some of that by talking about jobs. He was able to successfully turn most talking points into a jobs reference, which I think voters want to hear.

    As for the moderator being biased, I call bullshit. She may have appeared argumentative, but that's because Romney was trying to dictate when he could speak.

    The only time Crawley interjected any comments was when she clarified a remark that Obama made about the terrorist attack in Benghazi. I think she did a good time and let both candidates exceed their time limits.

    The only time I would say she got pushy was when she was trying to move things along so more questions could be asked.

    The best part of the debate for me was when Obama made the comment about health care and health care choices being an economic decision, especially when it relates to a women's access to contraception. Of course, Romney then jumped in with a comment that he too does not want to restrict contraception choices, which we all know is a lie.
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  14. #1464
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    You can tell Romney is familiar with talking down to people. He tried to bully the moderator and came off as a jerk. It was almost like he was trying to moderate the debate himself. Obama clearly did better in this debate, but Romney was able to diffuse some of that by talking about jobs. He was able to successfully turn most talking points into a jobs reference, which I think voters want to hear.

    As for the moderator being biased, I call bullshit. She may have appeared argumentative, but that's because Romney was trying to dictate when he could speak.

    The only time Crawley interjected any comments was when she clarified a remark that Obama made about the terrorist attack in Benghazi. I think she did a good time and let both candidates exceed their time limits.

    The only time I would say she got pushy was when she was trying to move things along so more questions could be asked.

    The best part of the debate for me was when Obama made the comment about health care and health care choices being an economic decision, especially when it relates to a women's access to contraception. Of course, Romney then jumped in with a comment that he too does not want to restrict contraception choices, which we all know is a lie.
    So you actually mean to tell me that you could not tell which candidate she supported? As a moderator, it is not her job to interject any of her personal or professional comments or to say that either candidate is right or wrong on any topic. I think it is great when they work hard to keep things on schedule, but from what I hear Obama had a full more 8 minutes to respond than Romney.

    As for contraception choices, how do you know? Will be ban condoms and birth control? I know that he is pro-life, but I don't know what his stance is on contraception.
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

  15. #1465
    Cyburbian ColoGI's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by btrage;647078
    You can tell Romney is familiar with talking down to people. He tried to bully the moderator and came off as a jerk.

    As for the moderator being biased, I call bullshit. She may have appeared argumentative, but that's because Romney was trying to dictate when he could speak.

    .
    Rmoney definitely had some good moments and made some good points that went unanswered, or the time wasn't given to answer. He was good. He did a good job pounding the talking points, and POTUS decided not to elaborate why his (and Bush advisors') plans were blocked. But clearly POTUS' team learned from Biden what worked, and many Rmoney lies were exposed. In a sane world, that would weaken him considerably, and the Benghazi gaffe would be a breath-losing blow....

    Let us hope the low-information undecideds were able to see these issues and vote rationally.

    Also, the rich jerk plutocrat actually said this to the sitting president, as if he were simply the help:

    "You'll get your chance in a moment. I'm still speaking."
    If POTUS weren't careful not to look like an angry Kenyan, that is a line that allows evisceration. I wish he would have taken that opportunity, as well as some others that were missed.
    -------
    Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.

  16. #1466
    Cyburbian Planit's avatar
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    A "Fact Check" article is in USAToday. Read if you want.

    I did not watch the debate, but did watch a few clips this morning while getting ready. I flipped over from MSNBC to Fox and it was amazing the different spin that was placed on the same issue/responses by each candidate.
    "Whatever beer I'm drinking, is better than the one I'm not." DMLW
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  17. #1467
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    So you actually mean to tell me that you could not tell which candidate she supported? As a moderator, it is not her job to interject any of her personal or professional comments or to say that either candidate is right or wrong on any topic. I think it is great when they work hard to keep things on schedule, but from what I hear Obama had a full more 8 minutes to respond than Romney.

    As for contraception choices, how do you know? Will be ban condoms and birth control? I know that he is pro-life, but I don't know what his stance is on contraception.
    Honestly, I have no idea who she would vote for. And I don't know the exact minutes, other than they were both going over their allotted time, which happens in all debates. It's very difficult being a moderator and I think all moderators of Presidential debates in my lifetime have not been biased. It's just a talking point that partisans use when their candidate may not have won. I'm sure liberals were slamming Jim Lehrer after the first debate.

    Because he's changed views so many times, I'm not sure where Romney's views are when it comes to something like the Blunt amendment, which would allow employers to deny their employees contraceptive care if doing so conflicts with the employer's religious or moral beliefs. I don't like the Blunt amendment and I believe that all employers that offer health insurance should be required to provide a full range of contraception choices, regardless of their beliefs. It's something I believe in very strongly.

    I think Romney could offer some valid perspectives on moving this country forward. But he seems more concerned about getting elected than being himself and articulating where he and Obama differ.
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  18. #1468
    Cyburbian Duke Of Dystopia's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    ....As for contraception choices, how do you know? Will be ban condoms and birth control? I know that he is pro-life, but I don't know what his stance is on contraception.
    Because his personal stance is a ruse.

    His tactic is to say he is not for something, but if the congress were to send him a bill, which contained removal of contraceptive choice, bans on condoms and birth control, and other "personhoood" limits, he would surely sign that bill.

    It might not be "his" bill, but it surely is his position. He thinks idiots will believe that it was congress' fault and not his position.
    I can't deliver UTOPIA, but I can create a HELL for you to LIVE in :)DoD:(

  19. #1469
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    Honestly, I have no idea who she would vote for. And I don't know the exact minutes, other than they were both going over their allotted time, which happens in all debates. It's very difficult being a moderator and I think all moderators of Presidential debates in my lifetime have not been biased. It's just a talking point that partisans use when their candidate may not have won. I'm sure liberals were slamming Jim Lehrer after the first debate.

    Because he's changed views so many times, I'm not sure where Romney's views are when it comes to something like the Blunt amendment, which would allow employers to deny their employees contraceptive care if doing so conflicts with the employer's religious or moral beliefs. I don't like the Blunt amendment and I believe that all employers that offer health insurance should be required to provide a full range of contraception choices, regardless of their beliefs. It's something I believe in very strongly.

    I think Romney could offer some valid perspectives on moving this country forward. But he seems more concerned about getting elected than being himself and articulating where he and Obama differ.
    Ahhh, I understand now. If the government doesn't require insurance companies and employers to pay for it, they are 'restricting contraception choices'. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

    As for you don't know who she would vote for... I thought you said that you watched the debate last night. I looked up some clips and it became very apparent. I will watch the full debate tonight to see if she does the same to Obama, but thus far I can not find any indication of that happening.
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

  20. #1470
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    Ahhh, I understand now. If the government doesn't require insurance companies and employers to pay for it, they are 'restricting contraception choices'. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

    As for you don't know who she would vote for... I thought you said that you watched the debate last night. I looked up some clips and it became very apparent. I will watch the full debate tonight to see if she does the same to Obama, but thus far I can not find any indication of that happening.
    I don't think she was unfair to Romney. I watched the entire debate. It wasn't apparent to me. I would argue that unless you have an agenda or are partisan, it was fairly even. I think both gentlemen tried to talk over the moderator, but she did a good job trying to keep the pigs in the pen. I think Romney does himself no favors when he acts childish and talks over or tries to push the moderator out of the way. I feel the same for Obama. I think she did better than Jim Lehrer though.
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  21. #1471
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    Ahhh, I understand now. If the government doesn't require insurance companies and employers (and employees through premium payments) to pay for it, they are 'restricting contraception choices'. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
    No problem. Many forms of contraception require a medical prescription or procedure. Sure, anyone can go out and buy some condoms, but condoms are far and away one of the most least effective forms of contraception.
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  22. #1472
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    No problem. Many forms of contraception require a medical prescription or procedure. Sure, anyone can go out and buy some condoms, but condoms are far and away one of the most least effective forms of contraception.
    I feel like it is always men who say that condoms are the best form of contraception. I doubt you will find a woman anywhere that would argue condoms are better than the pill or an IUD.

    Why men get involved in women's bodies is beyond me. Why some men think they know what they are talking about when it comes to women's bodies and want to legislate their agenda without consideration for women's health is even further beyond me.
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  23. #1473
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    I successfully avoided most political news for about a week, but ended up watching the debate. Can't believe I would have missed out on the binders full of women lol. Wow. Okay, back to self-imposed political discussion exile.
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

  24. #1474
    Cyburbian ColoGI's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner View post
    I successfully avoided most political news for about a week, but ended up watching the debate. Can't believe I would have missed out on the binders full of women lol. Wow. Okay, back to self-imposed political discussion exile.
    -------
    Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.

  25. #1475
    Cyburbian beach_bum's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hink View post
    I feel like it is always men who say that condoms are the best form of contraception. I doubt you will find a woman anywhere that would argue condoms are better than the pill or an IUD.

    Why men get involved in women's bodies is beyond me. Why some men think they know what they are talking about when it comes to women's bodies and want to legislate their agenda without consideration for women's health is even further beyond me.
    Yes, most guys have no idea what taking the pill means. Birth control is essentially extra hormones which has an impact on almost every function of a woman's body, not just reproduction. Most women gain weight on birth control. Figuring out what birth control (there are many choices) works for you can be trial and error with side effects. That is why you need a prescription. Birth control is an issue that should be discussed with a doctor, it's personal.

    PS-edited out severe sarcasm from my hormone-laced response
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