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Thread: The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

  1. #2476
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    The only time I want a gun in any school is if a peace officer is carrying it.
    Well, the bill would have made it harder for people to carry guns in schools. Right now, anyone with a CPL can open carry there. At least the new bill would have required advanced training, and from what a cop friend tells me, it would have been about the same as what they have to do. But, he is going to veto it.
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

  2. #2477
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    Well, the bill would have made it harder for people to carry guns in schools. Right now, anyone with a CPL can open carry there. At least the new bill would have required advanced training, and from what a cop friend tells me, it would have been about the same as what they have to do. But, he is going to veto it.
    That's my understanding as well. I think it's obvious that his decision was impacted by the events of last Friday. It was good timing on the RTW legislation, but bad timing on this issue.
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  3. #2478
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    So people will still be able to open carry in public school areas if they have their CPL, but they cannot carry if they go into most restaurants that serve alcohol or arenas even if the owners say it is ok.

    BILLIANT!
    I want to keep guns away from alcohol. I don't care if you think you are careful. Or you think you wouldn't do something stupid. The second you put a gun in a place with alcohol you allow a situation to occur that wouldn't occur if a gun wasn't there. A beating might happen, but a shooting death won't.

    I am not for ridiculous gun restrictions, but the idea that putting more guns into our society instead of properly regulating those that are in it, is astounding to me.

    I think concealed carry is fine in some places. Keep it out of public spaces, parks, buildings, etc. Keep them away from alcohol. Keep them out of schools. I think that unless you want to hire specific peace officers to protect a location, guns should not be there.

    I am not against guns... I hunt. My married family is REALLY involved in the gun business. I own guns. But even I am reasonable enough to understand that there is no need for assault type weapons. I can come up with no good reason other then "pleasure". If that is the argument, then there should be more nudity on the tv. That brings a lot of people "pleasure". And please note - that type of pleasure cannot kill... except your eyes....
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  4. #2479
    Cyburbian ColoGI's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    The only time I want a gun in any school is if a peace officer is carrying it.
    Pleasepleaseplease let this be the turning point against the gun fetishists. We are all tired of their widdle fears requiring them to be armed to the teeth. Please.
    -------
    Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.

  5. #2480
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hink View post
    I am not against guns... I hunt. My married family is REALLY involved in the gun business. I own guns. But even I am reasonable enough to understand that there is no need for assault type weapons. I can come up with no good reason other then "pleasure". If that is the argument, then there should be more nudity on the tv. That brings a lot of people "pleasure".
    Now we're talking!!
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  6. #2481
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    Still amuses me that CU made some dorms where guns are allowed. Unsurprisingly no one has opted to live there. Most students who would stay in dorms aren't old enough to get a concealed weapon permit to make use of those dorms.

  7. #2482
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hink View post
    I want to keep guns away from alcohol. I don't care if you think you are careful. Or you think you wouldn't do something stupid. The second you put a gun in a place with alcohol you allow a situation to occur that wouldn't occur if a gun wasn't there. A beating might happen, but a shooting death won't.

    I am not for ridiculous gun restrictions, but the idea that putting more guns into our society instead of properly regulating those that are in it, is astounding to me.

    I think concealed carry is fine in some places. Keep it out of public spaces, parks, buildings, etc. Keep them away from alcohol. Keep them out of schools. I think that unless you want to hire specific peace officers to protect a location, guns should not be there.

    I am not against guns... I hunt. My married family is REALLY involved in the gun business. I own guns. But even I am reasonable enough to understand that there is no need for assault type weapons. I can come up with no good reason other then "pleasure". If that is the argument, then there should be more nudity on the tv. That brings a lot of people "pleasure". And please note - that type of pleasure cannot kill... except your eyes....
    I agree that alcohol and guns don't mix. I personally do not think that a person should be permitted to carry (open or concealed) of they have anything to drink or had anything that could alter a persons mind including many medications (medical pot). However I think that is where the line should be. There are so many regulations on CPL's, that I don't think that it should be about place as much as it should be about the person with the advanced licence. I have seen too many situations where someone gets drunk at a summer BBQ. However, the were smart enough to leave their weapon at home.

    For me, if I am going to have one drink, even at a friends house, the guns stay locked up in the safe at home.


    I also find it interesting that some places in TX has a program that permit teachers to conceal if they have a CPL and advanced training.
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

  8. #2483
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    I have seen too many situations where someone gets drunk at a summer BBQ. However, the were smart enough to leave their weapon at home.

    For me, if I am going to have one drink, even at a friends house, the guns stay locked up in the safe at home.


    I also find it interesting that some places in TX has a program that permit teachers to conceal if they have a CPL and advanced training.
    You are making my point. You are saying that you have good judgement. The law does not care about your judgement. They set rules. A guy passes the test and maybe doesn't have as good of judgement as you... then what? I mean he only had one drink...

    Sometimes regulations are too restrictive. Sometimes they aren't strict enough. But many of the gun laws are in place because many of the people who buy guns are stupid. We unfortunately in this country have to have laws that set a standard for the lowest denominator at the cost of those who wouldn't need such regulations.

    I wouldn't ever steal from anyone. Why do I need a law that says this is illegal? I have good judgement.
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  9. #2484
    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hink View post
    You are making my point. You are saying that you have good judgement. The law does not care about your judgement. They set rules. A guy passes the test and maybe doesn't have as good of judgement as you... then what? I mean he only had one drink...

    Sometimes regulations are too restrictive. Sometimes they aren't strict enough. But many of the gun laws are in place because many of the people who buy guns are stupid. We unfortunately in this country have to have laws that set a standard for the lowest denominator at the cost of those who wouldn't need such regulations.

    I wouldn't ever steal from anyone. Why do I need a law that says this is illegal? I have good judgement.
    and why the heck do we have such low speed limits? I can drive quite safely at much higher speeds than most posted speed limits.
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

  10. #2485
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hink View post
    You are making my point. You are saying that you have good judgement. The law does not care about your judgement. They set rules. A guy passes the test and maybe doesn't have as good of judgement as you... then what? I mean he only had one drink...

    Sometimes regulations are too restrictive. Sometimes they aren't strict enough. But many of the gun laws are in place because many of the people who buy guns are stupid. We unfortunately in this country have to have laws that set a standard for the lowest denominator at the cost of those who wouldn't need such regulations.

    I wouldn't ever steal from anyone. Why do I need a law that says this is illegal? I have good judgement.
    Most people think they have good judgement even when they don't. And even people with good judgement can snap and go nuts. On another forum I was having a discussion about this with some gun nuts, and it seems the main argument from the gun nuts needing to have assault weapons and high capacity magazines is that they need it to fight against a tyranical US government. I'm sorry, but that is not only not a good reason, but shows a lack of good judgement IMO, making the case that the very people most inclined to own assault weapons are the very people who should not be allowed to own assault weapons.

    Yet at the same time, I feel like not having anyone with protection at schools is clearly a problem. Personally, I would just tax the heck out of assault weapons and use the money to fund security personel at schools.
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  11. #2486
    Cyburbian otterpop's avatar
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    I wish the incident at Sandy Hook Elementary would be a turning point that causes this country to find ways to curtail rampant gun violence, especially these mass killings. But I don't think it will be. We will talk about it for a while, then it will be forgotten a few days after the victims are buried. I hope I am wrong.

    It isn't just a matter of making guns harder to obtain or banning assualt weapons. It reaches further. Into how we diagnose and treat mental illness. Into how we raise our children. Into how we treat our fellow man. Into how we are a nation whose culture is violent and bellicose. Americans will say they love peace, but we have a jacked up military industrial complex and cannot go very long without killing a lot of people in other countries. And killing a lot of people in our own country. It is what we do. We want peace and damned if we aren't going to keep killing you people until you give it to us.

    We need to take a long, uncomfortable look at who we are as a nation and as a people. We won't like what we will see and so we will turn away from solutions. To help fix this mess would require hard work and sacrifice and we as a people aren't too inclined to do either for very long.

    I am not against guns. I like them. My son and I go shooting. I appreciate them as finely crafted machines. I read books about them. I can identify many guns with one look. I come from a family of gun nuts.

    In the past eighteen months I have bought two guns. Eighteen months ago I bought my son his first rifle. When I went to buy the rifle I thought I would have to fill out some paperwork and come back in a few days once the background check was done. From the time I left on my lunch hour until I had the rifle was thirty-eight minutes. Let me repeat that - THIRTY EIGHT MINUTES!!!! No one should be able to purchase a gun on their lunch hour. It takes longer to buy a car. Or have lunch at Perkins.

    About a month ago I bought a pistol. On a Saturday. It took about an hour. Come on.

    And there should not be an exception for gun show sales. Sorry, no. I've been to enough gun shows to tell you-all that a lot of those people should not only not have guns, they shouldn't be running around loose, unless under a doctor's care and serious pharmaceuticals. And those are the dealers! Nutjobs and paranoids among them and they have dealer licenses.

    The answer isn't more guns. The answer sure isn't more people with carry permits. I really don't know what the answer is. It is so complex an issue. To help solve the problem of violence and mass killings would require so much by so many. I don't see that happening.
    "I am very good at reading women, but I get into trouble for using the Braille method."

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  12. #2487
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hink View post
    You are making my point. You are saying that you have good judgement. The law does not care about your judgement. They set rules. A guy passes the test and maybe doesn't have as good of judgement as you... then what? I mean he only had one drink...

    Sometimes regulations are too restrictive. Sometimes they aren't strict enough. But many of the gun laws are in place because many of the people who buy guns are stupid. We unfortunately in this country have to have laws that set a standard for the lowest denominator at the cost of those who wouldn't need such regulations.

    I wouldn't ever steal from anyone. Why do I need a law that says this is illegal? I have good judgement.
    Yea… I don’t see where the argument is. I think that if you have anything to drink, you should not carry. I think it should be law.
    I have seen people who have been carrying (somewhat concealed) in bars drinking. If they have a CPL, they risk losing it. Or they just don’t care.

    Quote Originally posted by otterpop View post
    I wish the incident at Sandy Hook Elementary would be a turning point that causes this country to find ways to curtail rampant gun violence, especially these mass killings. But I don't think it will be. We will talk about it for a while, then it will be forgotten a few days after the victims are buried. I hope I am wrong.

    It isn't just a matter of making guns harder to obtain or banning assualt weapons. It reaches further. Into how we diagnose and treat mental illness. Into how we raise our children. Into how we treat our fellow man. Into how we are a nation whose culture is violent and bellicose. Americans will say they love peace, but we have a jacked up military industrial complex and cannot go very long without killing a lot of people in other countries. And killing a lot of people in our own country. It is what we do. We want peace and damned if we aren't going to keep killing you people until you give it to us.

    We need to take a long, uncomfortable look at who we are as a nation and as a people. We won't like what we will see and so we will turn away from solutions. To help fix this mess would require hard work and sacrifice and we as a people aren't too inclined to do either for very long.

    I am not against guns. I like them. My son and I go shooting. I appreciate them as finely crafted machines. I read books about them. I can identify many guns with one look. I come from a family of gun nuts.

    In the past eighteen months I have bought two guns. Eighteen months ago I bought my son his first rifle. When I went to buy the rifle I thought I would have to fill out some paperwork and come back in a few days once the background check was done. From the time I left on my lunch hour until I had the rifle was thirty-eight minutes. Let me repeat that - THIRTY EIGHT MINUTES!!!! No one should be able to purchase a gun on their lunch hour. It takes longer to buy a car. Or have lunch at Perkins.

    About a month ago I bought a pistol. On a Saturday. It took about an hour. Come on.

    And there should not be an exception for gun show sales. Sorry, no. I've been to enough gun shows to tell you-all that a lot of those people should not only not have guns, they shouldn't be running around loose, unless under a doctor's care and serious pharmaceuticals. And those are the dealers! Nutjobs and paranoids among them and they have dealer licenses.

    The answer isn't more guns. The answer sure isn't more people with carry permits. I really don't know what the answer is. It is so complex an issue. To help solve the problem of violence and mass killings would require so much by so many. I don't see that happening.
    I agree that there needs to be better screening before people can buy guns or get a CPL, including mental competency. I also agree that there needs to be more done to address mental illness in the US.
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

  13. #2488
    Cyburbian Plus Whose Yur Planner's avatar
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    Jeez, and I thought we might get by not talking about gun control-silly me
    Regarding mental health-It's a complicated issue full of good ideas gone wrong. Add to this that the the feds and state governments have been defunding mental health programs for years.
    When did I go from Luke Skywalker to Obi-Wan Kenobi?

  14. #2489
    Cyburbian ofos's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Whose Yur Planner View post
    Jeez, and I thought we might get by not talking about gun control-silly me
    Regarding mental health-It's a complicated issue full of good ideas gone wrong. Add to this that the the feds and state governments have been defunding mental health programs for years.
    Breaking my self-imposed boycott of political threads just to say that the quick fix of gun control will be more of a feel good effort than anything else if mental health isn't also seriously addressed again and I just don't see that happening. I know I'm stepping on "free speech" here but I also think that the glorification of violence in movies and video games plays a part in these disasters for people who can't clearly see the line between fantasy and reality.
    “Death comes when memories of the past exceed the vision for the future.”

  15. #2490
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by ofos View post
    Breaking my self-imposed boycott of political threads just to say that the quick fix of gun control will be more of a feel good effort than anything else if mental health isn't also seriously addressed again and I just don't see that happening. I know I'm stepping on "free speech" here but I also think that the glorification of violence in movies and video games plays a part in these disasters for people who can't clearly see the line between fantasy and reality.
    I agree that you might be correct in many regards. For my family, we don't let our kids watch much TV or movies, and thus another reason that we will not permit video games. We did buy the oldest a Nerf dart game for Christmas, but it is step one on teaching him about guns and marksmanship. We will have very strict rules and if he breaks the rules, he will have to watch me break his gun into many little pieces with my shop vice.
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

  16. #2491
    Cyburbian ColoGI's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by ofos View post
    the quick fix of gun control will be more of a feel good effort than anything else if mental health isn't also seriously addressed again and I just don't see that happening. I know I'm stepping on "free speech" here but I also think that the glorification of violence in movies and video games plays a part in these disasters for people who can't clearly see the line between fantasy and reality.
    Control of large magazines and semi-automatic machines designed for the sole purpose of killing lots of people (including children) is not a feel-good effort. It is common sense. Few things are simpler than that.

    Also, in addition to glorification of violence in movies and video games, the corporate media are always there with their 24/7 coverage that attracts advertisers.

    And it is politically taboo, but I agree that the health care in this country needs overhaul, including mental health. No other developed country on the planet is so backward as us. This backwardness is part of the gun problem, IMHO.
    -------
    Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.

  17. #2492
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by ColoGI View post
    Control of large magazines and semi-automatic machines designed for the sole purpose of killing lots of people (including children) is not a feel-good effort. It is common sense. Few things are simpler than that.

    Also, in addition to glorification of violence in movies and video games, the corporate media are always there with their 24/7 coverage that attracts advertisers.

    And it is politically taboo, but I agree that the health care in this country needs overhaul, including mental health. No other developed country on the planet is so backward as us. This backwardness is part of the gun problem, IMHO.
    I'm somewhat naive when it comes to mental health care in this country. What actually needs to be done to improve our care? Is it simply making mental health care covered under more health insurance plans?
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  18. #2493
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    I'm somewhat naive when it comes to mental health care in this country. What actually needs to be done to improve our care? Is it simply making mental health care covered under more health insurance plans?
    A good portion is making quality care available to those who need it... or in many cases, those who need it for someone they love. Insurance premiums, access to care, and the stigmatization of that care are all problems.
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  19. #2494
    Cyburbian mgk920's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by ColoGI View post
    Control of large magazines and semi-automatic machines designed for the sole purpose of killing lots of people (including children) is not a feel-good effort. It is common sense. Few things are simpler than that.

    Also, in addition to glorification of violence in movies and video games, the corporate media are always there with their 24/7 coverage that attracts advertisers.

    And it is politically taboo, but I agree that the health care in this country needs overhaul, including mental health. No other developed country on the planet is so backward as us. This backwardness is part of the gun problem, IMHO.
    I'll jump in here. Pretty much everything that is being proposed in the line of 'gun control' would have had zero effect on any of the mass killings over at least the past couple of decades - they are 100% 'feel good' ideas.

    Limiting the size of magazines? The bad guy will just bring more magazines. They take at most a second or two to change out. Smaller ones would probably be easier to carry, too.

    Preventing the mentally ill from owning and carrying? The most recent bad guy owned no firearms and was denied one from a commercial retailer a few days before the attack via a background check. That law worked. He stole his weapons and ammo.

    'Assault' weapon ban? Sounds like going after cosmetically dressed up common deer hunting rifles. OK, then what? Besides, what IS an 'assault weapon'?

    'Gun-Free School' zone? Did THAT do any good? Also, the doors on the building were buzzer-locked during the day, like most school doors are nowadays. For the attacker, that was no problem - a couple of quick shots and the door was open. IMHO, at least principals should have ready access to (in a locked safe in his or her office perhaps) and proficiency in the use of deadly force. That would have saved lives.

    Yes, I agree that our mental health system is seriously broken and needs fixing. What exactly, I don't know. For as long as there have been people, people have been 'snapping' and going berserk. The worst ever school mass killing in USA history was in 1927 (in Bath, MI), at a time when fully automatic weapons (ie, Thompson sub-machine guns) were completely legal and unregulated. The attacker used bombs.

    Mike

  20. #2495
    Cyburbian ColoGI's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by mgk920 View post
    Pretty much everything that is being proposed in the line of 'gun control' would have had zero effect on any of the mass killings over at least the past couple of decades - they are 100% 'feel good' ideas.

    Limiting the size of magazines? The bad guy will just bring more magazines.

    Mike
    I do appreciate the scare quotes around 'gun control'. That's all we need, right there. Anyhoo, here in America - and I don't live too far from the theater in Aurora (gosh, we all know what that means, don't we) - the white male in last week's killing, or the week before, or the month before, or the month before that, used a large capacity clip or even a legal drum magazine to kill.

    More and more people don't care any more about gun fetishist's fee-fees. Semi-auto weapons and large clips are part of the problem. The sane walking among us see that. Full stop. We need to restore sanity to this country. The NRA and their corporate lobbyists are funding a minority of voters. They can go away now.
    -------
    Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.

  21. #2496
    Cyburbian mgk920's avatar
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    Also, unlike many others in here, I will *never* blame inanimate objects for the damage done when someone misuses them. Period.

    Mike

  22. #2497
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by ColoGI View post
    I do appreciate the scare quotes around 'gun control'. That's all we need, right there. Anyhoo, here in America - and I don't live too far from the theater in Aurora (gosh, we all know what that means, don't we) - the white male in last week's killing, or the week before, or the month before, or the month before that, used a large capacity clip or even a legal drum magazine to kill. .
    Swapping out a magazine might take only a few seconds, but that IS a big difference. No civilian in a civilized society needs a magazine that can fire off 40 or 50 rounds in under a minute without pausing to reload.

    Quote Originally posted by ColoGI View post
    More and more people don't care any more about gun fetishist's fee-fees. Semi-auto weapons and large clips are part of the problem. The sane walking among us see that. Full stop. We need to restore sanity to this country. The NRA and their corporate lobbyists are funding a minority of voters. They can go away now.
    I agree. Nobody is going to ban all guns and the gun nuts are not the victims here. Gun-fetishers and their fantasies about overthrowing our own government are a clear minority and its about time we ignore them.
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  23. #2498
    Cyburbian ColoGI's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by mgk920 View post
    Also, unlike many others in here, I will *never* blame inanimate objects for the damage done when someone misuses them. Period.
    Mike
    I like it - since assault weapons don't cause damage, we can restrict them. Outstanding.

    Excellent, too, that I'm glad we can discuss inane gun fetishists and their white fears and how that doesn't need to drive policy any more, as they are a voting minority and declining in number. So we can tighten some of these inane and dangerous ALEC- and NRA-based inane laws.

    And also how civil society can discuss the fact that white men mass murders would have killed fewer people with a steak knife, machete, brass knuckles, box cutter, ice pick, tazer, tweezers, tire iron, twitter hash tag, Bruce Lee-wielded nunchucks, man purse with rolls of pennies inside. Civil society is tired of the inanity. Our country is sick and needs help, and this symptom is a good way to start taking our country back.
    -------
    Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.

  24. #2499
    Cyburbian Plus Whose Yur Planner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    I'm somewhat naive when it comes to mental health care in this country. What actually needs to be done to improve our care? Is it simply making mental health care covered under more health insurance plans?
    First, there is no link between violent video games and mass murders. I think there are several studies to this effect. As for the mental health care, it's several fold. A lot of the old institutions got shut down for several reasons. They were trying lessen the stigma of mental illness that isolating the mentally ill caused. Sadly, governments took this ball and ran with it and closed the institutions and didn't come up with an effective Plan B, making sure people took their meds.The net result is that prison now became the homes for the mentally ill.

    I've noticed that some insurance companies now cover conseling services and employers offer these types of services through the local mental health clinic. This is a relatively recent event. Other problems include the realization that some people are so mentally ill that they need to be isolated from the general public because they pose a harm to both themselves and others. There is still a pretty significant stigmatization of the mentally ill and their families. There is also a severe lack of understanding about mental illness, the different types and treatments. The toll it takes on the families of the mentally ill.
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    Thought you might want to know what the spin regarding Newtown is like in a very left-leaning community.

    On the local community radio station, the growing meme is "Why is nobody morning for the thousands of innocent children that the United States is targeting in drone attacks in Afghanistan and Pakistan?" There's some talk of the need for gun control, and hypothesis of the underlying reasons for such massacres, but otherwise it's all about drones and Afghanistan. It's the same kind of tu quoque argument, whataboutism, or appeal to hypocrisy that I've been seeing from the far right with dismissive statements like "Why is nobody mourning for the millions of innocent babies we kill every year through abortion?"
    Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

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