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Thread: The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

  1. #2526
    Cyburbian ColoGI's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    Today, a friend said that one of the GOP put out the idea to just let the D's pass what ever they want, and that the R's would vote present just so something would pass, but letting the people know they are in objection, but lost the political game at the tax payers expense.

    Regardless what happens I still think that they are all idiots in Washington. None of them are doing what is best for the county, they are doing what is best for their special interest group.
    That's an old talking point, I think the Rs are way past that now. Nevertheless, I saw this today:
    Democrats and Republicans are wings on the same bird of prey. -–Eugene V. Debs
    Last edited by ColoGI; 28 Dec 2012 at 8:52 PM.
    -------
    Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.

  2. #2527
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by ColoGI View post
    That's an old talking point, I think the Rs are way past that now. Nevertheless, I saw this today:
    I don't tune into any of the news networks so many of you are more upto date on the current proposals than I am.

    I will say it again, R or D, the are all idiots.
    Invest in the things today, that provide the returns tomorrow.

  3. #2528
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    I find this an interesting article....

    Benevolent Billionaires Should Buy Out Bushmaster
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...ushmaster.html


    Business moguls who favor stricter gun-control laws -- among them Bloomberg LP founder and New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, financier George Soros and entertainment honcho David Geffen -- are in the unique position of being able to put their money where their mouths are, and with a single bold move can change the raging gun debate in a way that intransigent politicians cannot.

    These well-intentioned billionaires (and others) should buy Freedom Group Inc., the world’s largest gun manufacturer, from Cerberus Capital Management LP, which has put it up for sale, and literally liquidate it.

    Put your money where your mouth is. There is no truer opportunity.... pretty interesting.
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  4. #2529
    moderator in moderation Suburb Repairman's avatar
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    Here's what I think will happen:

    We will go over the fiscal cliff. Everyone's taxes will go up automatically. There will be weeping & gnashing of teeth.

    Then Congress will take action about a week later to "cut taxes." This will be a tax cut on folks making under $250K. Basically, I think the current Congress will use the cliff as a spin tool--raising taxes automatically just so they can take credit for "lowering taxes" a couple of weeks later. They are banking on the American people failing to remember that it was their bad leadership that resulted in the tax increase that necessitated the cut. They all then get to campaign for their next election with the "I cut taxes" feather in their caps.

    Yes, I am just that cynical about the process.

    Personally, I'm OK with going over the fiscal cliff. The bill that created this possibility was technically bi-partisan and it does address financial issues on both the revenue & expenditure side of the budget. It corrects the misguided Bush-era tax cuts. The payroll tax holiday will be over. It cuts defense, long a sacred cow. Yes, it will have a tremendous impact on the economy and may result in negative GDP growth next year. Yes, it might increase unemployment by a point. Yes, doctors will be pissed about Medicare payouts. Yes, it will be painful. But it is, fundamentally, a bipartisan bill.

    "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

    - Herman Göring at the Nuremburg trials (thoughts on democracy)

  5. #2530
    Cyburbian ColoGI's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Suburb Repairman View post
    We will go over the fiscal cliff. Everyone's taxes will go up automatically. There will be weeping & gnashing of teeth.
    I'm cynical. They are - Congress - creating this Kabuki theater that the corporate media are dutifully repeating. Their paymasters want to steal the big pot of money sitting out there. Something will be arranged in a post-"cliff" deal that will allow the rich to steal SS and Medicare.

    Democrats and Republicans are wings on the same bird of prey. -–Eugene V. Debs
    -------
    Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.

  6. #2531
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    I see an agreement going something like $500k and up.

    - Doc Fix
    - Put off sequestration.
    - 1.2 Trillion in cuts.

    Kick that can down the road...
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  7. #2532
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    So the fiscal cliff is basically the sequester cuts. But the cuts are needed to get out debt under control. But the cuts will also put us into back into a recession. so..... um.....
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

  8. #2533
    Cyburbian mgk920's avatar
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    Don't forget the truly breathtaking federal tax increases that will be taking effect on 01-Jan due to the Unaffordable Care Act and that have nothing whatsoever to do with the Fiscal Cliff™.



    2013 will be a very bad year, economically, for the USA.

    Mike

  9. #2534
    Cyburbian ColoGI's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by mgk920 View post
    Don't forget the truly breathtaking federal tax increases that will be taking effect on 01-Jan due to the Unaffordable Care Act and that have nothing whatsoever to do with the Fiscal Cliff™.
    I agree - we should do nothing to get our health care costs under control, in order that we stay uncompetitive and continue to have the highest health care costs in the world yet have some of the poorest outcomes in the developed world.
    -------
    Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.

  10. #2535
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    To say this doesn't bring me joy would be a lie...

    Sean Hannity Ratings Plummet, Loses Half His Viewers After Election
    http://www.inquisitr.com/464388/sean...fter-election/
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  11. #2536
    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hink View post
    To say this doesn't bring me joy would be a lie...

    Sean Hannity Ratings Plummet, Loses Half His Viewers After Election
    http://www.inquisitr.com/464388/sean...fter-election/
    Outspoken actor Ed Asner in early December claimed that Hannity was “behind on his rabies medicine.”
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

  12. #2537
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Wow, I just got off the phone with my accountant.... and my taxes are going up. And I don't make anywhere close to the $400,000 mark. (as in too many digits.)

    Apparently, there was some SSI tax break that is expiring. On top of that there are some changes to the federal tax code that will hurt more because I am a sole proprietor LLC.
    Invest in the things today, that provide the returns tomorrow.

  13. #2538
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    Wow, I just got off the phone with my accountant.... and my taxes are going up. And I don't make anywhere close to the $400,000 mark. (as in too many digits.)

    Apparently, there was some SSI tax break that is expiring. On top of that there are some changes to the federal tax code that will hurt more because I am a sole proprietor LLC.
    Sometimes you confuse me. You seem to have a grip on what you believe, but then you don't seem to have an understanding of the facts? The payroll tax holiday was not renewed as part of the agreement. If you will recall that was a 2% reduction in the payroll tax for 2011 and 2012.

    Federal social insurance taxes are imposed on employers and employees,ordinarily consisting of a tax of 6.2% of wages up to an annual wage maximum ($110,100 in 2012) for Social Security and a tax of 1.45% of all wages for Medicare. For the years 2011 and 2012, the employee's contribution has been temporarily reduced to 4.2%, while the employer's portion remained at 6.2%.
    Hence an increase in your taxes.
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  14. #2539
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hink View post
    Sometimes you confuse me. You seem to have a grip on what you believe, but then you don't seem to have an understanding of the facts? The payroll tax holiday was not renewed as part of the agreement. If you will recall that was a 2% reduction in the payroll tax for 2011 and 2012.
    Hey, I just spoke with my accountant so I know what to expect. She ran through a list of things and high lighted these two along with the statement, "As of right now, your 2013 taxes will be higher than your 2012 taxes."

    Based on your response, her comment is still correct.
    Invest in the things today, that provide the returns tomorrow.

  15. #2540
    Cyburbian
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    I don't think payroll tax holidays are ever a good idea when those programs are facing long term solvency issues. Granted, it's an easy way to get more money in people's pockets and it disperses that money more evenly than a stimulus check.

  16. #2541
    Cyburbian Brocktoon's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hink View post
    Sometimes you confuse me. You seem to have a grip on what you believe, but then you don't seem to have an understanding of the facts? The payroll tax holiday was not renewed as part of the agreement. If you will recall that was a 2% reduction in the payroll tax for 2011 and 2012.



    Hence an increase in your taxes.
    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    Hey, I just spoke with my accountant so I know what to expect. She ran through a list of things and high lighted these two along with the statement, "As of right now, your 2013 taxes will be higher than your 2012 taxes."

    Based on your response, her comment is still correct.
    But you have the remainder of your fiscal year to look for tax credits or modify your business practices to reduce your tax liability if this 2% increase will result in a substantial burden. There are many reasons for your tax liability to go up from more revenue, decpreciation schedules of assets or not incurring as many tax deductible expenses.

    I was talking with a business owner a month ago and stated that Congress is always creating and ending programs that help and hurt small businesses. Last year he took advantage of a veteran owned business tax credit that saved him and his company huge money. Of course this guy does not sleep and reads the federal register for sport. He finds tax programs his accountant was did not know about.
    "If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less" General Eric Shinseki

  17. #2542
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Blide View post
    I don't think payroll tax holidays are ever a good idea when those programs are facing long term solvency issues. Granted, it's an easy way to get more money in people's pockets and it disperses that money more evenly than a stimulus check.
    I think the payroll tax is better then most of our other taxing policy. At least that money goes directly to something.

    I would like to see my taxes be directed - 4% to defense, 10% to Education, etc.

    My issue with raising taxes (this is the fiscal conservative in me) is that we do not have a clear picture of where my taxes are going. When our government is unable or unwilling to pass budgets, you can't even use that as a guideline.

    I would be much more comfortable paying 20-35% if they told me where that money was going from the start.
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  18. #2543
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    The SSI thing is a great example of how messed up our political system is. Reducing the payroll tax was first proposed by the GOP and opposed by democrats. Then Obama pushed for it and the GOP opposed it. As part of this fiscal cliff deal the GOP demanded it be raised.

    In any case, I think it has always been a bad idea becuause it was underfunding an already underfunded social security program.
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

  19. #2544
    Cyburbian Mud Princess's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hink View post
    I would be much more comfortable paying 20-35% if they told me where that money was going from the start.
    They are a little out of date, but you could try this or this.

  20. #2545
    Cyburbian ColoGI's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Blide View post
    I don't think payroll tax holidays are ever a good idea when those programs are facing long term solvency issues. Granted, it's an easy way to get more money in people's pockets and it disperses that money more evenly than a stimulus check.
    If we had a decent system is this country, what would be more equitable across the board would be a tax system where you rewarded the goods (work) and taxed the bads (pollution, waste, "sin", etc.). A carbon tax would be good, a tax on a shrinking labor pool would be bad.

    But that's a dream, because the corporations that run the country need to pollute and depress wages while replacing labor with automation. Until this is fixed, our system will remain the same.
    -------
    Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.

  21. #2546
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Mud Princess View post
    They are a little out of date, but you could try this or this.
    Ooooo! I like! Now unfortunately this is dynamically based on the budget items. I would love to see the law state it the other way. Defense gets X%.

    Like we do at home. I spend 10% on retirement. If I make more money, then more money goes into retirement. If I make less money, then less goes in.

    I still don't understand why the government is so unable to budget like everyone else on earth...
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  22. #2547
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hink View post
    I still don't understand why the government is so unable to budget like everyone else on earth...
    So, if you had the power to spend more than you had with no personal fallout, you'd still budget the same? My X% for retirement would include me being paid the same wage even if I got fired and the best medical insurance money could buy until I was dead.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
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  23. #2548
    moderator in moderation Suburb Repairman's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hink View post
    I still don't understand why the government is so unable to budget like everyone else on earth...
    Because the people we elect are dumb. Next question please.

    "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

    - Herman Göring at the Nuremburg trials (thoughts on democracy)

  24. #2549
    Cyburbian ColoGI's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hink View post
    I still don't understand why the government is so unable to budget like everyone else on earth...
    A Public Finance 101 class will help you understand. A government isn't like a family.
    -------
    Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.

  25. #2550
    Cyburbian Plus Whose Yur Planner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hink View post
    I still don't understand why the government is so unable to budget like everyone else on earth...
    Dusting off my old public finance knowledge from Public Admin classes-Colio is correct. Governments aren't families and they aren't businesses. Governments provide services. What services get provided and to what extent is determined by the political process-you, me a couple million/billion other people..
    When did I go from Luke Skywalker to Obi-Wan Kenobi?

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