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Thread: The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

  1. #2626
    Cyburbian ColoGI's avatar
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    'big, big deal'

    Josh Marshall and his staff http://"http://talkingpointsmemo.com...=Google+Reader the VA gerrymandering to disenfranchise the poor is a big deal:
    A week ago I noted a new Republican push to gerrymander the electoral college to make it almost impossible for Democrats to win the presidency in 2016 and 2020, even if they match or exceed Barack Obama’s vote margin in 2012. Is something like that really possible? Yes, very possible.

    To review, here’s how it works. The US electoral college system is based on winner take all delegate allocation in all but two states. If you get just one more vote than the other candidate you get all the electoral votes. One way to change the system is go to proportional allocation. That would still give some advantage to the overall winner. But not much. The key to the Republican plan is to do this but only in Democratic leaning swing states — not in any of the states where Republicans win. That means you take away all the advantage Dems win by winning states like Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan and so forth.

    But the Republican plan goes a step further.

    Rather than going by the overall vote in a state, they’d allocate by congressional district. And this is where it gets real good, or bad, depending on your point of view. Democrats are now increasingly concentrated in urban areas and Republicans did an extremely successful round of gerrymandering in 2010, enough to enable them to hold on to a substantial House majority even thoughthey got fewer votes in House races than Democrats.

    In other words, the new plan is to make the electoral college as wired for Republicans as the House currently is. But only in Dem leaning states. In Republican states just keep it winner take all. So Dems get no electoral votes at all.

    Another way of looking at this is that the new system makes the votes of whites count for much more than non-whites — which is a helpful thing if you’re overwhelmingly dependent on white votes in a country that is increasingly non-white.

    This all sounds pretty crazy. But it gets even crazier when you see the actual numbers. Here’s a very illustrative example. They’re already pushing a bill to do this in the Virginia legislature. Remember, Barack Obama won Virginia and got 13 electoral votes. But as Benjy Sarlin reported today in a series of posts, if the plan now being worked on would have been in place last November, Mitt Romney would have lost the state but still got 9 electoral votes to Obama’s 4. Think of that, two-thirds of the electoral votes for losing the state. If the Virginia plan had been in place across the country, as Republicans are now planning to do, Mitt Romney would have been elected president even though he lost by more than 5 million votes.

    Remember, plans to do this are already underway in Michigan, Pennsylvania, Ohio and other states in the Midwest.

    This is happening.

    One party doesn't like democracy. One reason to get rid of the electoral college right here.
    Last edited by Hink; 25 Jan 2013 at 7:57 AM. Reason: Fixed Link
    -------
    Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.

  2. #2627
    Cyburbian
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    Currently it sounds like only Virginia is looking at allocating electoral votes based on Congressional districts. The rest of the states just want to do a proportional system which I honestly have no problem with since it increases the influence of third parties.

  3. #2628
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    I actually believe that people are leaving France over the thought of 75% taxes.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...super-tax.html

    I don't think it is unreasonable for people to leave a country because they are taxed so much. At some level, you are either providing enough service to that person for them to value the cost, or you aren't.

    I think this is the trouble we have in the U.S. There is a line, and I will agree that it is very fine and tough to agree on, but there is a line. If you try and get revenue by only taxing the wealthy, you will lose the investment, and the ability to tax them because they will leave. The U.S. is pretty harsh on their changing of nationality stuff (Edwardo Savrin anyone?), but in general we must be aware of that line.

    Does anyone feel that 75% of your taxes should go to the government?
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  4. #2629
    Cyburbian
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    Quote Originally posted by Hink View post
    Does anyone feel that 75% of your taxes should go to the government?
    I think it depends what you get for your taxes. I'd definitely have a hard time paying that amount if there was no appreciable difference in quality of life. If our infrastructure was well maintained, there was universal healthcare, free access to higher education, and a robust social safety net, I don't think I'd have a problem paying a 75% tax rate.

  5. #2630
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/25/opinio...html?hpt=hp_c1

    Extremely clear to me. Tax spending, not work.


    The Mitt-Lefty paradox has a simple explanation: In America, we tax work. And highly. We do not tax capital or wealth much at all. Indeed, if you have wealth already, taxes are essentially optional under what I call tax Planning 101, the simple advice to buy/borrow/die.
    Yet one fact not making news is that it is still the case that the highest marginal tax rates in America do not fall on the highest incomes, like Lefty, but on certain of the working poor, many of them single parents, who are being taxed at rates approaching 90% as they lose benefits attempting to better themselves.
    But this should worry us, for two reasons.

    One, the fact that the high incomers do flee jurisdictions, or flee from the productive activity of working, is a bad thing for the U.S.

    Two, the very risk that the rich and famous might leave, aided by the appearance that some do, holds tax reform hostage. We have struggled to raise rates at all on the rich, blocked by the mostly mythical Joe the Plumber as much as by the realities of Mickelson or the Rolling Stones. When we do finally raise rates, as we did at the fiscal cliff, we do so on the wrong rich, in the wrong way. Lefty's taxes went up, Mitt's need not.
    The problem -- and it is the same problem as with Mitt's taxes -- is that we are taxing the wrong thing, in the wrong way. In sum, we tax work, not wealth. This is backward.

    We should be taxing the act of spending, not the socially beneficial ones of work and savings. Then we could raise tax rates without fear of ill effects.
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  6. #2631
    Cyburbian ColoGI's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hink View post
    http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/25/opinio...html?hpt=hp_c1

    Extremely clear to me. Tax spending, not work.
    I agree that we should tax bads and not goods. But in our current system if a few perpetual malcontents want to leave because of high taxes, see ya. Not happening in this country, as our taxes are so low. But when I lived in Europe we did have friends whose parents moved to the low tax-high amenity USA.

    Aside but relevant: Obama should not approve KXL pipeline until some sort of carbon tax scheme is begun. We can tax that and offset some payroll tax. As the WH has signaled they won't tax carbon, we will continue our descent.
    -------
    Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.

  7. #2632
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hink View post
    http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/25/opinio...html?hpt=hp_c1

    Extremely clear to me. Tax spending, not work.
    I agree 100%. I'm no economist, but this just seem more fair to me somehow. If I want to choose a simple life, spend very little and hoard my money, I should not be penalized by the government via income taxes. There has to be a smarter way to fund government at the federal level.
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  8. #2633
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    It was bad enough when there was "Bush is a Nazi!" hyperbole from the progressive crowd. Now I'm seeing "Obama is worse than Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mussolini, Kim Jong Il, Castro, Idi Amin, and Chairman Mao!" forwards. This is what our civic discourse is being reduced to.

    Regardless of what you think of President Obama, it's offensive to so many when he's compared to tyrants that killed millions of their own people, just for advocating gun control or universal health care. How many Jews, Roma, Catholics, Poles, Russians, gays, socialists, and intellectuals did President Obama order into death camps? And, for those on the progressive left, you're not entirely innocent - drones in Afghanistan don't make Obama some kind of warlord or tyrant either. Be fortunate you live in a country where people are free to make such comparisons, and face absolutely no consequences or reprisals. That certainly wouldn't be the case in Nazi Germany, the USSR, North Korea, and the like.

    Debate and dissent are a signs of a healthy democracy. Nazi comparisons, though ... c'mon.
    Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

  9. #2634
    Cyburbian otterpop's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dan View post
    It was bad enough when there was "Bush is a Nazi!" hyperbole from the progressive crowd. Now I'm seeing "Obama is worse than Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mussolini, Kim Jong Il, Castro, Idi Amin, and Chairman Mao!" forwards. This is what our civic discourse is being reduced to.

    Regardless of what you think of President Obama, it's offensive to so many when he's compared to tyrants that killed millions of their own people, just for advocating gun control or universal health care. How many Jews, Roma, Catholics, Poles, Russians, gays, socialists, and intellectuals did President Obama order into death camps? And, for those on the progressive left, you're not entirely innocent - drones in Afghanistan don't make Obama some kind of warlord or tyrant either. Be fortunate you live in a country where people are free to make such comparisons, and face absolutely no consequences or reprisals. That certainly wouldn't be the case in Nazi Germany, the USSR, North Korea, and the like.

    Debate and dissent are a signs of a healthy democracy. Nazi comparisons, though ... c'mon.
    Godwin’s Law: As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.
    "I am very good at reading women, but I get into trouble for using the Braille method."

    ~ Otterpop ~

  10. #2635
    moderator in moderation Suburb Repairman's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by otterpop View post
    Godwin’s Law: As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.
    I seem to recall the extension to that law is that the person that invokes the Nazi comparison automatically loses by virtue that nothing can compare to the atrocities committed by Hitler & the Nazi Party.

    "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

    - Herman Göring at the Nuremburg trials (thoughts on democracy)

  11. #2636
    Cyburbian Plus Whose Yur Planner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Suburb Repairman View post
    I seem to recall the extension to that law is that the person that invokes the Nazi comparison automatically loses by virtue that nothing can compare to the atrocities committed by Hitler & the Nazi Party.
    With the net effect of lessening or cheapening the horror that actually happened during WW II.
    When did I go from Luke Skywalker to Obi-Wan Kenobi?

  12. #2637
    Cyburbian dw914er's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by otterpop View post
    Godwin’s Law: As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.
    I tell my friend's about that law all the time. Now that they're looking for it, they realize that it's true. Nazi comparisons are a great fallacy.
    And that concludes staff’s presentation...

  13. #2638
    Cyburbian
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    Occasionally you see people Godwin themselves. Like this gem from the other day:

    Silvio Berlusconi praises Mussolini at Holocaust remembrance

  14. #2639
    Cyburbian ColoGI's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by dw914er View post
    I tell my friend's about that law all the time. Now that they're looking for it, they realize that it's true. Nazi comparisons are a great fallacy.
    There is also a strong association with Poe's Law when Godwin is found.
    -------
    Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.

  15. #2640
    Cyburbian Linda_D's avatar
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    The list of organizations on the NRA's current "enemies list":
    AARP
    AFL-CIO
    Ambulatory Pediatric Association
    American Academy of Pediatrics
    American Civil Liberties Union
    American Academy of Ambulatory Care Nursing
    American Medical Women`s Association
    American Medical Student Association
    American Medical Association
    American Association for the Surgery of Trauma
    American Trauma Society
    American Federation of Teachers
    American Association of School Administrators
    American Alliance for Rights and Responsibilities
    American Medical Association
    American Bar Association
    American Counseling Association
    American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry
    American Academy of Pediatrics
    American Association for World Health
    American Ethical Union
    American Nurses Association
    American Association of Neurological Surgeons
    American Association of Family and Consumer Sciences
    American Firearms Association
    American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
    American Jewish Committee
    American Trauma Society
    American Psychological Association
    American Jewish Congress
    American Public Health Association
    Americans for Democratic Action
    Anti-Defamation League
    Black Mental Health Alliance
    B`nai B`rith
    Central Conference of American Rabbis
    Children`s Defense Fund
    Church of the Brethren
    Coalition for Peace Action
    Coalition to Stop Gun Violence
    College Democrats of America
    Committee for the Study of Handgun Misuse & World Peace
    Common Cause
    Congress of National Black Churches, Inc.
    Congress of Neurological Surgeons
    Consumer Federation of America
    Council of the Great City Schools
    Council of Chief State School Officers
    Dehere Foundation
    Disarm Educational Fund
    Environmental Action Foundation
    Episcopal Church-Washington Office
    Florence and John Shumann Foundation
    Friends Committee on National Legislation
    General Federation of Women`s Clubs
    George Gund Fun
    Gray Panthers
    H.M. Strong Foundation
    Hadassah
    Harris Foundation
    Hechinger Foundation
    Interfaith Neighbors
    Int`l Ladies` Garment Workers` Union
    Int`l Association of Educators for World Peace
    Jewish Labor Committee
    Joyce Foundation
    Lauder Foundation
    Lawrence Foundation
    League of Women Voters of the United States*
    Lutheran Office for Governmental Affairs, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
    Manhattan Project II
    Mennonite Central Committee-Washington Office
    National Safe Kids Campaign
    National Association of Police Organizations
    National Coalition Against Domestic Violence
    National Black Nurses` Association
    National Association of Chain Drug Stores
    National Network for Youth
    National Assembly of National Voluntary Health & Social Welfare Organizations
    National Association for the Advancement of Colored People
    National Association of School Psychologists
    National Association of Counties*
    National Association of Pediatric Nurse Associates & Practitioners
    National Association of School Safety and Law Enforcement Officers
    National Education Association
    National Association of Elementary School Principals*
    National Association of Public Hospitals
    National Coalition Against Domestic Violence
    National Association of Secondary School Principals
    National Association of Social Workers
    National Association of Children`s Hospitals and Related Institutions
    National Association of School Psychologists
    National Council of La Raza
    National Center to Rehabilitate Violent Youth
    National Commission for Economic Conversion & Disarmament
    National Council of the Churches of Christ in the USA
    National Council of Negro Women
    National Association of Community Health Centers
    National People`s Action
    National Education Association*
    National League of Cities
    National Council on Family Relations
    National Council of Jewish Women
    National Organization for Women
    National Political Congress of Black Women
    National Parks and Conservation Association
    National Peace Foundation
    National Urban League, Inc.
    National Parent, Teachers Association*
    National Urban Coalition
    National SAFE KIDS Campaign
    National Organization on Disability
    National Spinal Cord Injury Association
    NETWORK: A National Catholic Social Justice Lobby
    Ortenberg Foundation
    Peace Action
    People for the American Way
    Physicians for Social Responsibility
    Police Foundation
    Project on Demilitarization and Democracy
    Public Citizen
    SaferWorld
    Society of Critical Care Medicine
    Southern Christian Leadership Conference
    The Council of the Great City Schools
    The Synergetic Society
    20/20 Vision
    U.S. Catholic Conference, Dept. of Social Development
    Union of American Hebrew Congregations
    Unitarian Universalist Association
    United States Catholic Conference
    United Methodist Church, General Board & Church Society
    United Church of Christ, Office for Church in Society*
    United States Conference of Mayors
    War and Peace Foundation
    Women Strike for Peace
    Women`s National Democratic Club
    Women`s Action for New Directions (WAND)
    Women`s Int`l League for Peace and Freedom
    World Spiritual Assembly, Inc.
    YWCA of the U.S.A.
    *The national organization only endorses federal legislation.
    If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. -- John F. Kennedy, January 20, 1961

  16. #2641
    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Linda_D View post
    The list of organizations on the NRA's current "enemies list":
    AARP
    .....[snip].
    YWCA of the U.S.A.
    Well sure, those groups represent a bunch of irrational malcontents!
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

  17. #2642
    Cyburbian Planit's avatar
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    Well I see APA, CNU, AICP, AIA, & ASLA didn't make the "bad people" list.
    "Whatever beer I'm drinking, is better than the one I'm not." DMLW
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  18. #2643
    Cyburbian ColoGI's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Planit View post
    Well I see APA, CNU, AICP, AIA, & ASLA didn't make the "bad people" list.
    You have to be known and influential to make the list.
    -------
    Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.

  19. #2644
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Linda_D View post
    The list of organizations on the NRA's current "enemies list":
    .
    Wow. They hate everybody and they have lots of guns. Can't get more American than that. Too bad they don't consider Al-Qaeda an enemy though.
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

  20. #2645
    Cyburbian
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    Quote Originally posted by ColoGI View post
    You have to be known and influential to make the list.
    The American Psychological Association is well known. They even have their own method of citation

  21. #2646
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Linda_D View post
    War and Peace Foundation
    If that group supports the book, I understand why the NRA hates them....
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  22. #2647
    Cyburbian wahday's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Linda_D View post
    The list of organizations on the NRA's current "enemies list":
    Wow. Just wow. And if you go to their website, they also include individuals (who are mostly actors, musicians and artists), national figures (a mixed bag of politicians, doctors and journalists), corporations/corporate heads (including the Kansas City Royals and the Kansas City Chiefs) and media outlets (Knight-Ridder Newspapers, LA Times, Miami Herald and that most unreasonable of media outlets - NBC. Oh, and don't forget Motorcycle Cruiser Magazine) who also support what they call "anti-gun policies". The list is ginormous. Which you think might make them reflect a little on their own position. In fact, this is the same list I might put out to show all the reasonable entities that are in support of enhancing gun control legislation. Crazy!
    The purpose of life is a life of purpose

  23. #2648
    Cyburbian ColoGI's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Blide View post
    The American Psychological Association is well known. They even have their own method of citation
    ba-da-bum. Are you here all week?
    -------
    Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.

  24. #2649
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    Hey Scott Brown doesn't need to be in the Senate... he has a paid gig with.....

    Scott Brown joins Fox News

    http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/s...-politics.html
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  25. #2650
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Hitler hitler hitler hitler. Also, Hitler.

    Hitler (verb): 1) To murder millions, or 2) having a reasonable disagreement with.

    Use in a sentence: Those tax hikes are the Hitler!
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

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