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Thread: The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

  1. #351
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner View post
    In the states that have implemented tort reform - its been shown to do zero for lowering costs
    Obviously you didn't read my post. It doesn't do zero... it does little. Which I stated. My argument is that it allows smart people to want to go into the medical field. Why should a talented, smart person go into the medical field when they have to risk their livelihood every second of every day to save people who probably can't be saved? There is strong correlation between Tort Reform and the Doctor shortage.

    Quote Originally posted by Duke Of Dystopia
    What you don't seem to understand, is that it is not that easy to sue. If you don't win, you are liable for all costs. On top of that, harm is pretty cut and dried.
    Unfortunately, I do understand how this works. And no, you are not always liable for costs. A doctor who is sued, might win, but two things happen. Firstly, they cannot work while they are in court. This means they don't get paid for work they could otherwise be doing. Also, even if they win, they pay for their defense. And even if they do win, which most the time they do (because most suits are frivolous) they still have their name attached to a lawsuit, which hurts their future job prospects and insurance costs.

    Quote Originally posted by Duke Of Dystopia
    Tell me, what is the price of the following really worth?:

    A persons life
    A family member
    Lifetime earning potential when not artificially handicapped.
    Cost to you of a lifetime of taking care of a newborn infant harmed by drugs?
    Does it happen on the 1st time a crapy dr. screws up? or after the 15th?
    Once a limit is set, can the crapy dr. just buy his way out of the repercussions (cause the cost to him will be to low for him to care about)?

    This list is endless. Seriously, why do you feel qualified to put limits on other peoples right to seek proper settlement? Remember now good folks, since you are putting the case before a panel of your peers at trial, limiting their judgment is an arbitrary limit on "the market of worth". Which, as our Teabagger friends with torches and pitchforks on high would tell you, the "Gubment" should stay out of.
    If doctors had the ability to choose their patients, then I could maybe agree with you. With EMTALA the government makes seeing patients a requirement. What this means is that a doctor must see a patient that is probably going to die anyways. Maybe they will save their lives, maybe they won't. I agree with you, if you agree that doctors should be able to see who they give care to. If you can't agree to that, then doctors should have some liability protection that is equal to the risk they take by working on patients that are probably going to die.

    A person's life is invaluable. I don't think anyone can argue with that. What I have a problem with is someone who thinks that because a doctor didn't save someones life, or *gasp* made a mistake at some point, that they should be able to sue for whatever they see fit. You go to a doctor you should not be expecting perfection. Unfortunately we as humans are not capable of that. If you want to take the risk, it is your choice. Do you want to risk it with this doctor, who may or may not save you? That risk should be on the patient, not the doctor. Duke, unfortunately, you obviously have no experience from the medical side, and can only see this as a political maneuver, but for many doctors, it affects their ability to practice medicine better.
    Last edited by Hink; 27 Sep 2010 at 8:42 AM.
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  2. #352
    Cyburbian Emeritus Bear Up North's avatar
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    Civil Unrest

    This Bear is tired of the continual negative campaigns that are so freakin' prevalent in this mid-term election. Both sides are filling the airwaves with outright lies, half-truths, and blame-blame-blame.



    STFU.

    Bear
    Occupy Cyburbia!

  3. #353
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Bear Up North View post
    This Bear is tired of the continual negative campaigns that are so freakin' prevalent in this mid-term election. Both sides are filling the airwaves with outright lies, half-truths, and blame-blame-blame.



    STFU.

    Bear
    It is only going to get worse. With the flood gates now open for corporate cash, it will be more about who can say the worst thing about the other. Sadly, this is what we consider democracy...
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  4. #354
    Cyburbian wahday's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Bear Up North View post
    This Bear is tired of the continual negative campaigns that are so freakin' prevalent in this mid-term election. Both sides are filling the airwaves with outright lies, half-truths, and blame-blame-blame.



    STFU.

    Bear
    I'm right there with you. My wife went on a 15 minute non-stop rant about this just last night. And we don't even have a lot of big mid-term elections here.

    I've posted it before, but its worth repeating:

    "A lie gets halfway around the world before Truth even gets its boots on" - Samuel Clemens.

    So (depressingly) true...
    The purpose of life is a life of purpose

  5. #355
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hink_Planner View post
    It is only going to get worse. With the flood gates now open for corporate cash, it will be more about who can say the worst thing about the other. Sadly, this is what we consider democracy...
    Supposeldy the republican campaigns have been inhected with like 6 times the amount of corporate cash that is being injected into democratci campaigns - most of it unlimited and undocumented thanks to Citizens United. There is no more democracy. On the bright side- eventually there will only be one party - the corporate party, and so maybe we wont have to deal with negative campaigns for too long.
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

  6. #356
    Cyburbian TexanOkie's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner View post
    There is no more democracy.
    I don't think there ever was. There some democratic principles, perhaps. But our government, from the outset, has been more of a polyarchy in republican form than democracy, which isn't necessarily a bad thing if you read Robert A. Dahl's writings on the matter. It's certainly not the end of civilization, compassionate political discourse, or democratic principles. In fact, a lot of times Dahl argues that it's as close as humans can get to democratic ideals in our current stage in evolution.

  7. #357
    Quote Originally posted by Hink_Planner View post
    It is only going to get worse. With the flood gates now open for corporate cash, it will be more about who can say the worst thing about the other. Sadly, this is what we consider democracy...
    We need as a County to have a serious discussion about the roles of both the corporations and the media-in all it's forms. Granted, the County was founded as a commercial venture and that has always been a driving force here. However, we are no longer a County of farmers, shop keepers and small businesses. Equating multi-national corporations with small business owners doesn't work.

    With the media, we have gone from informing the citizens to throwing gas on raging fires. Granted, the media in the County has rarely been objective and gotten us into wars in the past (The Spanish-American War to name one). But it's disintergrating into shouting matches that only serve to increase profits. We need to take a step back.
    When did I go from Luke Skywalker to Obi-Wan Kenobi?

  8. #358
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Whose Yur Planner View post
    We need to take a step back.
    I think this is the sentiment of some of the Tea Party. Unfortunately, they are loonies and cannot articulate this (ignoring the bigots and village idiots in the mix).

    I believe that the middle will rise again, and hopefully whoever that leader is will bring about some reform in how we deal with the future of government. Instead of trying to state how the Constitution deals with issues it never could have even come close to dealing with, we will look to create new legislation, or amendments that can deal with our current situation. Fox & MSNBC are not going away anytime soon. Fox has 4 of the future R candidates for President on their bankroll for God's sake.

    We need to take a step back and try and re-evaluate what our country is about - and what is best for it going forward. Unfortunately that isn't going to happen for a while. We haven't hit rock bottom yet politically.
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  9. #359
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    ^^^ You guys ared crazy. The Country is already a fascistic banana republic. Its over.
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

  10. #360
    Cyburbian wahday's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by TexanOkie View post
    I don't think there ever was. There some democratic principles, perhaps. But our government, from the outset, has been more of a polyarchy in republican form than democracy, which isn't necessarily a bad thing if you read Robert A. Dahl's writings on the matter. It's certainly not the end of civilization, compassionate political discourse, or democratic principles. In fact, a lot of times Dahl argues that it's as close as humans can get to democratic ideals in our current stage in evolution.
    By Dahl's own admission, Polyarchy IS a form of democracy. He first coined the term in his book from the 1950's "A Preface to Democratic Theory" He later more specifically refined these concepts in 1989's "Democracy and its Critics" While he says that limitations on the full participation of the citizenry in the political process (by, say, not letting Puerto Ricans or those living in other territories from voting for a voting member of congress) can impede a polyarchy's ability to become a full democracy, he definitely calls Polyarchy democratic form of government. Not the only way to do it or even the best for all circumstances he would say, but still a form of democracy.
    The purpose of life is a life of purpose

  11. #361
    Sorry, but the blast of negative campaigning is getting to me and it's only late September. I need to rant.

    In an odd way, I find it amusing how the tea party supported candidate for NY governor said he'd use Eminent Domain to block the Islamic cultural center near Ground Zero.

    [cartoon bubble above paladino's head] I'm utterly and completely opposed to big government, except when it can buy me votes.[/cartoon bubble]

    Dandy Randy Paul is spouting off about how "government is the servant, not the master" and he's going to eliminate various federal bureaucracy in the name of personal freedom. Perhaps he'll start with the civil rights division of DOJ since he apparently opposes the ADA, among other civil rights laws. He, personally, would never discriminate against someone because of race, disability or so forth. Of course.

    That my family had the good fortune to leave Nevada (where we were pioneers, no less!) is something I'm eternally grateful for since senatorial candidate Sharron Angle has opposed mandatory insurance coverage for autism spectrum disorders among other mandatory coverages. Turn right for the stone age, y'all.

    If the right and tea partiers are so offended at the liberal elite, witness the president's Harvard degree and Elena Kagan's Ivy experience to name just two, why is O'Donnell lying about her academic record? Fairleigh Dickinson? Um, no. Oxford? Ha, hardly. Princeton? Never heard of her.

    Okay, I feel a little better. Rant over.

  12. #362
    Cyburbian wahday's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Gedunker View post
    Sorry, but the blast of negative campaigning is getting to me and it's only late September. I need to rant.

    In an odd way, I find it amusing how the tea party supported candidate for NY governor said he'd use Eminent Domain to block the Islamic cultural center near Ground Zero.

    [cartoon bubble above paladino's head] I'm utterly and completely opposed to big government, except when it can buy me votes.[/cartoon bubble]

    Dandy Randy Paul is spouting off about how "government is the servant, not the master" and he's going to eliminate various federal bureaucracy in the name of personal freedom. Perhaps he'll start with the civil rights division of DOJ since he apparently opposes the ADA, among other civil rights laws. He, personally, would never discriminate against someone because of race, disability or so forth. Of course.

    That my family had the good fortune to leave Nevada (where we were pioneers, no less!) is something I'm eternally grateful for since senatorial candidate Sharron Angle has opposed mandatory insurance coverage for autism spectrum disorders among other mandatory coverages. Turn right for the stone age, y'all.

    If the right and tea partiers are so offended at the liberal elite, witness the president's Harvard degree and Elena Kagan's Ivy experience to name just two, why is O'Donnell lying about her academic record? Fairleigh Dickinson? Um, no. Oxford? Ha, hardly. Princeton? Never heard of her.

    Okay, I feel a little better. Rant over.
    What Gedunker said.

    Our mid-terms are surprisingly mild this year in NM, though of course one cannot escape the national news very easily. Our Gubernatorial race is a pretty big mess, though. I find the Republican candidate to be combative, angry and more than a little scary - focusing almost exclusively on border security issues and offering little to no positions on anything else. As one of the poorest states in the union, we have a lot to deal with beyond border issues. The Democratic candidate (now Lieutenant Governor) lacks that elusive quality of zazz, charisma or even palpable enthusiasm (though she knows what she is talking about) and I fear she will be trounced as a result.
    The purpose of life is a life of purpose

  13. #363
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    I'm with those who are tired of the negative campaign ads. I watch Wheel of Fortune at 6:30pm every day, and pretty much every commercial since the start of September has been a political ad, and I know it's only going to get worse as we enter October. Illinois has a lot of things that are up for grabs and likely to go Republican including three competitive suburban Congressional races currently held by D's (8th, 11th, 14th), Obama's old Senate seat, and the governorship recently held by Blago. The Democrats have been ruthless with the negative campaigning (at least that's what I've seen the most of in this timeslot). Most of the Republican ads I've seen have been mostly positive ads, with the exception of the tight Senate race, where punches have been thrown on either side. At least some of the Republican ads are kind of humorous, comparing Giannoulias to Tony Soprano.

    I think negative campaigning is silly and usually doesn't work, primarily because the ads highlight the opponent. Regardless of what the ad is saying, it usually mentions the opponent's name A LOT. And come Nov. 2, that's all that a lot of people will remember...who's name was said the most.
    Last edited by illinoisplanner; 29 Sep 2010 at 8:52 PM.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
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  14. #364
    Cyburbian mgk920's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner View post
    I'm with those who are tired of the negative campaign ads. I watch Wheel of Fortune at 6:30pm every day, and pretty much every commercial since the start of September has been a political ad, and I know it's only going to get worse as we enter October. Illinois has a lot of things that are up for grabs and likely to go Republican including three competitive suburban Congressional races currently held by D's (8th, 11th, 14th), Obama's old Senate seat, and the governorship recently held by Blago. The Democrats have been ruthless with the negative campaigning (at least that's what I've seen the most of in this timeslot). Most of the Republican ads I've seen have been mostly positive ads, with the exception of the tight Senate race, where punches have been thrown on either side. At least some of the Republican ads are kind of humorous, comparing Giannoulias to Tony Soprano.

    I think negative campaigning is silly and usually doesn't work, primarily because the ads highlight the opponent. Regardless of what the ad is saying, it usually mentions the opponent's name A LOT. And come Nov. 2, that's all that a lot of people will remember...who's name was said the most.
    I like how Ron Johnson (R-Oshkosh) came right out of the box after the recent partisan primaries here in Wisconsin with a sort of 'preemptive strike' against incumbent USSenator Russ Feingold (D-Middleton) - his first radio ad the day after the primary was to counter what his campaign believed was to be Feingold's first negative attack (Johnson referring to Social Security as a giant Ponzi scheme - "Yes, I did say that, and it's true" - followed a few sentences later with "...and the money is gone"). His has been a mostly positive campaign, too, while the Feingold campaign has been mostly hard negative. Right now, Johnson is maintaining an 8-10 point lead in statewide polls.

    I addition to Feingold's USSenate seat, I am expecting two and perhaps three of Wisconsin's eight USHouse seats to flip from 'D' to 'R' - Incumbent Steve Kagen's (D-Appleton) seat will go to Republican Reid Ribble (R-Kaukauna) and longtime Democrat USHouse Rep. David Obey's seat (Obey is retiring) will go to Sean Duffy (R-Ashland). The third seat (it's on the bubble and could go either way) is currently held by Ron Kind (D-La Crosse).
    The party balance is now 3-R/5-D.

    I am also expecting the state's governorship (hugely unpopular incumbent Democrat James Doyle - his approval numbers are even lower than BHO's - is retiring) to go to Republican Scott Walker (currently the very popular with conservatives and viciously reviled by liberals County Executive of Milwaukee County). Democrat Tom Barrett (currently Mayor of the City of Milwaukee and a former USHouse Rep.) is running an almost invisible campaign and is looked upon by many as almost a 'Doyle's third term'.

    Both houses of the Wisconsin state legislature will easily flip from majority 'D' to majority 'R', too. Look for a strong push for Wisconsin to require voters to show valid government-issued IDs at the polls (a hugely popular idea among voters statewide) and to make Wisconsin the 49th state to allow concealed-carry with permit for firearms (leaving Illinois as the only remaining holdout), among many other lingering popular issues that were continually blocked by the Democrats, within the first couple of months of next year. The state is also facing a budget deficit that is more than twice as bad, per capita, as Illinois' and even worse than that of California and the Democrat's inaction on and gross mismanagement of the state's budget is one of the biggest statewide issues.

    Mike
    Last edited by mgk920; 29 Sep 2010 at 9:43 PM.

  15. #365
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by mgk920 View post
    Both houses of the Wisconsin state legislature will easily flip from majority 'D' to majority 'R', too. Look for a strong push...[SNIP]...to make Wisconsin the 49th state to allow concealed-carry with permit for firearms (leaving Illinois as the only remaining holdout), among many other lingering popular issues that were continually blocked by the Democrats, within the first couple of months of next year.
    It could be a race between IL & WI to see who allows concealed-carry first. There's been talk that the Illinois State House could be taken over by Republicans, unseating the very powerful Chicago liberal Democrat House Spearker, Mike Madigan (who is very anti-gun), and it's almost a sure thing that conservative down-stater Bill Brady (who is very pro-gun) will be Governor.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
    -Steven Tyler

  16. #366
    Cyburbian mgk920's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner View post
    It could be a race between IL & WI to see who allows concealed-carry first. There's been talk that the Illinois State House could be taken over by Republicans, unseating the very powerful Chicago liberal Democrat House Spearker, Mike Madigan (who is very anti-gun), and it's almost a sure thing that conservative down-stater Bill Brady (who is very pro-gun) will be Governor.
    Add that incident that I mentioned in the 'Random Thoughts' thread earlier today and there really is no telling how fast the two states will fall in line on that.

    Mike

  17. #367
    Cyburbian Marine Corps Planner's avatar
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    Oh, spare me.. IP...... Republicans run "positive Ads" ???? Remember the swift boat veterans? Your bias is showing.

  18. #368
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Marine Corps Planner View post
    Oh, spare me.. IP...... Republicans run "positive Ads" ???? Remember the swift boat veterans? Your bias is showing.
    Maybe you should take a reading class...

    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner
    The Democrats have been ruthless with the negative campaigning (at least that's what I've seen the most of in this timeslot). Most of the Republican ads I've seen have been mostly positive ads...
    Do you live in Illinois? Do you watch the political ads from 6:30-7:00pm every day on WLS-TV? Because that's what I'm talking about here...the 2010 midterm elections in Illinois. And based on that (and that only). Is that clearer for you now?
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
    -Steven Tyler

  19. #369
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Republicans suck
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

  20. #370
    Cyburbian mgk920's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Marine Corps Planner View post
    Oh, spare me.. IP...... Republicans run "positive Ads" ???? Remember the swift boat veterans? Your bias is showing.
    And yours isn't?

    Anyone who has been hanging around here in Cyburbialand for more than a few weeks knows that EVERYONE in here speaks with a bias, on both partisan political and planning theory levels, and the regulars in here pretty much know what angles the other regulars are normally writing from.

    Healthy interaction in a pvblic forvm does not involve attempts to shut up those with whom you disagree simply because you disagree with them.

    Mike

  21. #371
    Quote Originally posted by mgk920 View post
    And yours isn't?

    Anyone who has been hanging around here in Cyburbialand for more than a few weeks knows that EVERYONE in here speaks with a bias, on both partisan political and planning theory levels, and the regulars in here pretty much know what angles the other regulars are normally writing from.

    Healthy interaction in a pvblic forvm does not involve attempts to shut up those with whom you disagree simply because you disagree with them.

    Mike
    I'm not going to put a MOD hat on, but the reply by Marine Corps Planner didn't try to silence anyone's opinion, and while MCP may not have many posts, they've been a member here for quite some time and presumably understand where folks are coming from. I'd suggest the point has been made --you and ip disagree with MCP about political advertisements. Now, move it along and carry on.

  22. #372
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    This is a word for word post from someone reading a CNN article about Rahm resigning as chief of staff...

    Actually the chief of staff is nothing more than Obama's puppet and fellow muslim buddy...time for the change and the needed change is the top 'dog' himself....he's neither a citizen of this fine country or considered an up-standing person...he's leading us to destruction intentionally. His loyalty is with his muslim buddies in Africa and wherever they're all located all over this world. So November 2012 let's VOTE this 'person' out of office and out of this country.

    Do people really think like this? Or are they just more likely to speak (type) this way because of anonymity? Can my right-leaning buddies who oppose Obama on fact-based matters explain where this comes from? I understand if you don't like Obama because of the health care stuff, or because jobs aren't coming back quickly enough, but this kind of expression makes me sad. I also realize people did similar things when GWB was in office, but there's something deeper to the hate-filled expressions people have towards Obama. Like when the person called him an Arab at a McCain rally in 2008. There's some underlying issue that's driving this. Is it racism? Just plain anger at the Great Recession? The decline of civility?

    Personally, I think it's a racial thing. I honestly believe the USA is nowhere near being done with our racial issues. I think it's just more in the closet than it was 40 years ago. But I could be convinced otherwise.
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  23. #373
    Cyburbian mgk920's avatar
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    My thoughts on Rahm mainly relate to how much the City of Chicago will deserve him if he comes its mayor.

    Oh yea, and it will also be most interesting to see what happens if the Illinois state courts declare him to not be legally domiciled in Chicago and thus ineligible to run for mayor (from the chatter that I am hearing, under Illinois state law he established his domicile in Washington, DC over a year ago and is no longer a city resident).

    This is gonna be FUN to watch!



    Mike

  24. #374
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by mgk920 View post
    My thoughts on Rahm mainly relate to how much the City of Chicago will deserve him if he comes its mayor.

    Oh yea, and it will also be most interesting to see what happens if the Illinois state courts declare him to not be legally domiciled in Chicago and thus ineligible to run for mayor (from the chatter that I am hearing, under Illinois state law he established his domicile in Washington, DC over a year ago and is no longer a city resident).

    This is gonna be FUN to watch!



    Mike
    I would say I feel sorry for Chicago if he wins, but I really don't care. I am however glad to see him out of the white house.
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

  25. #375
    Cyburbian wahday's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    Personally, I think it's a racial thing. I honestly believe the USA is nowhere near being done with our racial issues. I think it's just more in the closet than it was 40 years ago. But I could be convinced otherwise.
    For the substantiveless types of generalized anger you quoted, I am definitely in agreement about racism fueling these feelings. I think for some people, they just can't stand the idea that a Black Man is in charge. Its sounds so pathetic to say it out loud, but there are a lot of people who are very wedded to the existing social order and this turns all of that on its head, perhaps creating that sense that the world is in a death spiral. I mean, to have someone like THAT in office?!

    But with political correctness being what it is these days, its hard to get away with criticizing one's ethnicity. Better to use code words like Communist, Socialist, Mau Mau, Islamist and Trans-global Conspirator. I say all of this as one who has relatives speaking and thinking this way. So disappointing...

    I like to tell people that while Obama might be the first Black President, he is also yet another White President.
    The purpose of life is a life of purpose

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