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Thread: The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

  1. #501
    Cyburbian Plus Whose Yur Planner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by mgk920 View post
    A One thing that has been noticed in that deficit commission report thing was no mention of Obamacare™ and many other entitlements. IMHO, just that health care disaster alone may well completely collapse the Dollar.



    AND, don't get me going on how Mr. Clueless (AKA BHO) is mishandling all of this on the Worldwide stage....



    Mike
    Ah yes, everything that is wrong with America can be traced back to Obama and the Democrats. Let's not mention the unfunded tax cuts, TARP, which was started by Bush, the economy that tanked, etc, etc, etc. As for mishandling the world stage, were to I start with Bush........
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  2. #502
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by mgk920 View post
    One thing that has been noticed in that deficit commission report thing was no mention of Obamacare™ and many other entitlements. IMHO, just that health care disaster alone may well completely collapse the Dollar.
    So what are these "other entitlements"? I believe that the health reform was left out because it has been slated to be revenue neutral. You can argue with this, but the report touches on other health related issues like the Doc fix, and health spending. Social Security, medicare, and medicaid are mentioned extensively within the report. What other entitlements are you talking about? Did you read the document? http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/CoChairDraft.pdf

    It strongly attacks entitlements. It takes a hard look at all spending the government does and even reduces tax rates (albeit with reduction of tax loopholes). I would have guessed you would have been mad at the defense budget cuts or cuts in Ag subsidies. Instead you focus on something that isn't even in the report?
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  3. #503
    Cyburbian zman's avatar
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    @ the Deficit Commission and Obamacare

    I think that the middle class took enough of a rod up the ass on the other points of the plan that Obamacare didn't need to be mentioned.
    You get all squeezed up inside/Like the days were carved in stone/You get all wired up inside/And it's bad to be alone

    You can go out, you can take a ride/And when you get out on your own/You get all smoothed out inside/And it's good to be alone
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  4. #504
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Whose Yur Planner View post
    Ah yes, everything that is wrong with America can be traced back to Obama and the Democrats. Let's not mention the unfunded tax cuts, TARP, which was started by Bush, the economy that tanked, etc, etc, etc. As for mishandling the world stage, were to I start with Bush........
    Well actually, TARP and the economy tanking happened while Democrats were in control of Congress and Bush couldn't really do much accept go along with it. And actually TARP didn't end up costing that much, since it was a guarantee if the banks failed, but most of them didn't end up needing the money, so TARP actually only cost about $50B instead of $700B.

    What is a complete waste of money though is Obama's stimulus which actually does cost $700B and has failed to stimulate the economy, along with the trillion-dollar healthcare law. That's $1.7 trillion dollars of unnecessary spending right there.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
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  5. #505
    Cyburbian kalimotxo's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner View post
    Well actually, TARP and the economy tanking happened while Democrats were in control of Congress and Bush couldn't really do much accept go along with it. And actually TARP didn't end up costing that much, since it was a guarantee if the banks failed, but most of them didn't end up needing the money, so TARP actually only cost about $50B instead of $700B.

    What is a complete waste of money though is Obama's stimulus which actually does cost $700B and has failed to stimulate the economy, along with the trillion-dollar healthcare law. That's $1.7 trillion dollars of unnecessary spending right there.
    TARP was a crappy but pretty necessary measure to keep the economy from tanking. To say that ARRA failed to "stimulate the economy" is pretty glib. There's significant recognition that but for the stimulus the unemployment rate would be significantly higher than it is right now. I don't buy the argument that it did nothing because Keynesian policies can work if done correctly; however, it should have been significantly larger considering the scope of problems we were looking at. What angers me most about the whole ARRA thing is the number of Republican governors and congresspeople that were out there undermining the bill in public all the while jockeying to direct stimulus funds to their own districts. If it was such a useless pile of money, they probably should have kept their hands out of the pot.

    As for the cost of health care, it had a big upfront price tag. But much like TARP it is expected to pay for itself within 10 years... something the non-partisan CBO determined independently. I don't know why you guys keep repeating the trillion dollar price tag as it's demonstrably false if you look at the long term.

    I can't wait to see how the Republicans on the Deficit Commission respond to the numbers. As Hink pointed out, it targets a number of entitlements... everything from Medicare to the mortgage interest deduction. Of course, those entitlements benefit major Republican constituencies (e.g. increasingly the AARP demographic, the real estate industry, homebuilders assn, etc). Methinks some "deficit hawks" may be called on their bluff this time around. The resulting report is going to be watered-down pablum that does absolutely nothing to rein in federal spending because no one wants to face the political reality of substantially reducing popular payouts and subsidies.
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  6. #506
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by kalimotxo View post
    TARP was a crappy but pretty necessary measure to keep the economy from tanking. To say that ARRA failed to "stimulate the economy" is pretty glib. There's significant recognition that but for the stimulus the unemployment rate would be significantly higher than it is right now. I don't buy the argument that it did nothing because Keynesian policies can work if done correctly; however, it should have been significantly larger considering the scope of problems we were looking at. What angers me most about the whole ARRA thing is the number of Republican governors and congresspeople that were out there undermining the bill in public all the while jockeying to direct stimulus funds to their own districts. If it was such a useless pile of money, they probably should have kept their hands out of the pot.

    As for the cost of health care, it had a big upfront price tag. But much like TARP it is expected to pay for itself within 10 years... something the non-partisan CBO determined independently. I don't know why you guys keep repeating the trillion dollar price tag as it's demonstrably false if you look at the long term.

    I can't wait to see how the Republicans on the Deficit Commission respond to the numbers. As Hink pointed out, it targets a number of entitlements... everything from Medicare to the mortgage interest deduction. Of course, those entitlements benefit major Republican constituencies (e.g. increasingly the AARP demographic, the real estate industry, homebuilders assn, etc). Methinks some "deficit hawks" may be called on their bluff this time around. The resulting report is going to be watered-down pablum that does absolutely nothing to rein in federal spending because no one wants to face the political reality of substantially reducing popular payouts and subsidies.
    I don't object to stimulating the economy or improving the healthcare system. I just think that the bills as they are are too hastily thrown together and too much money is wasted (i.e. all the expensive "This Project Funded by the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act" signs). I understand the need to get bills passed in a timely fashion, but I just wish that more care was taken to reduce costs, better prioritize projects, and create real solutions to problems rather than just taking money off the money tree and throwing it at the problems.

    As for the deficit, it is going to be interesting. I'm sure there may be some internal battles in the Republican Party over whether to reduce funding of popular programs (which I'm sure some of the old-school politicians are going to be against and that some of the newcomers might be in favor of).
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
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  7. #507
    Cyburbian CJC's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by mgk920 View post
    Well, seeing as there is now almost no demand for USA Treasuries on Worldwide markets and a fast increasing level of talk in international monetary circles of going back to a Worldwide gold standard....
    ???

    Record low yields on the past few auctions equals "almost no demand" how? Isn't it exactly the opposite? Record low yields = record demand

    I'm very interested to see a link from any reputable source talking about talk of returning to a worldwide gold standard Even talk from any individual country would be shocking, so I'd love to see that.

    There is still soooooo much deflationary pressure from falling asset prices that we're years and years away from inflation of any significance unless the Fed starts printing several times the amount they are now (which is desperately needed, IMO). A few trillion in increased federal debt doesn't outweigh $10 trillion+ in asset price declines. Those figures are not exactly comparable and don't need to be one-to-one, but the point stands - there is ZERO inflationary pressure at the moment and for the foreseeable future, and that's easily backed up by treasury prices.
    Two wrongs don't necessarily make a right, but three lefts do.

  8. #508
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    I love this thread, because it shows how the Fox News types have brainwashed so many people, including some of our regular posters.

    And honestly, no one should expect "Mike" to back up the truths that his post(s) espouses. That's pretty much par for the course.
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  9. #509
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    I too love this thread because it shows how the NPR/MSNBC types have brainwashed so many people, including some of our regular posters.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
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  10. #510
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner View post
    I too love this thread because it shows how the NPR/MSNBC types have brainwashed so many people, including some of our regular posters.
    We have been through this already... NPR doesn't brainwash anyone... it lulls them to sleep.... sheesh...
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  11. #511
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hink_Planner View post
    We have been through this already... NPR doesn't brainwash anyone... it lulls them to sleep.... sheesh...
    Ha. My point was simply to say it's kind of snarky and short-sighted to claim that someone is "brainwashed" by a certain news outlet when everybody gets their information from varying news sources and that if the term "brainwashing" is applied to one network, then I think it's only fair to apply it to all.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
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  12. #512
    Cyburbian mgk920's avatar
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    If demand for USA Treasuries was so good, then why is the Federal Reserve the only entity that seems to be buying them up?



    Mike

  13. #513
    Cyburbian CJC's avatar
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    The Fed only started their current process (the much hyped $600 billion to be bought by next spring) of buying treasuries this past week

    Are you only referring to the three auctions of $72 billion worth of treasuries this week? The auctions that drew more than $250 billion in total bids (a bid-to-cover ratio of well over 3 - many auctions in the 90's and early 00's had bid-to-cover ratios of under 1.5)?
    Two wrongs don't necessarily make a right, but three lefts do.

  14. #514
    Cyburbian mgk920's avatar
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    If things are going so well in the market for USA Treasuries, then why is the Fed even interested in buying them? Something doesn't smell right here.

    Mike

  15. #515
    Cyburbian CJC's avatar
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    They're buying treasuries in an attempt to create some much-needed inflation. The Fed doesn't publicly release an inflation target, but we've been far below the "whisper number" of 2% for quite some time.

    You can disagree with whether or not that is something that they should do, but there is no evidence for a "lack of demand" for US treasuries. Demand is still far above historical norms, in large part because of the lack of other good things to sock money away in. I'll be cheering the moment that we do see a long-term drop in demand for treasuries - as that will likely mean that something major has happened (likely a pickup in the economy in the US, China dropping the dollar peg, or some measure of certainty regarding European debt levels).

    High demand for US Treasuries isn't really a good thing, IMO, as it means other problems still exist. There are some other ways to stimulate the economy that I'd prefer be taken (encourage more repatriation of corporate profits, discourage corporate profit-holding through reform of the tax code, probably eliminate the corporate income tax, etc), but encouraging some mild inflation seems about the only thing possible politically. We've got to figure out some way to get the several trillion dollars sitting on corporate books moving.
    Last edited by CJC; 14 Nov 2010 at 1:25 AM.
    Two wrongs don't necessarily make a right, but three lefts do.

  16. #516
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Why haven't the republicans fixed everything yet?
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  17. #517
    Cyburbian Planit's avatar
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    imaplanner - Because he doesn't have healthcare insurance yet!!!

    Entitlement, Ignorance, Hypocrisy and Newly Elected!

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  18. #518
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner View post
    Why haven't the republicans fixed everything yet?
    Well, technically, the new Republican-controlled House won't take their seats until January 2011. And even then, Democrats will still control the Senate and the Presidency. The real question to start asking in January is "why haven't the Republicans and Democrats worked together to fix things yet?".
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
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  19. #519
    Cyburbian wahday's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner View post
    The real question to start asking in January is "why haven't the Republicans and Democrats worked together to fix things yet?".
    I've already been asking that for 4 years. Any reason things should be different now?
    The purpose of life is a life of purpose

  20. #520
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by wahday View post
    I've already been asking that for 4 years. Any reason things should be different now?
    Well, because for the past four years, the Democrats controlled both houses and for the past two years, they've controlled the Presidency as well. So they could simply ignore what the Republicans had to say and railroaded through whatever they wanted because they had the votes to pursue their own agenda without the need to seek Republican input. Now that one party is in control of one house and one in control of the other, they have no choice but to work together if they want to get things done.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
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  21. #521
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner View post
    Well, technically, the new Republican-controlled House won't take their seats until January 2011. And even then, Democrats will still control the Senate and the Presidency. The real question to start asking in January is "why haven't the Republicans and Democrats worked together to fix things yet?".
    Obama was supposedly a failure because he didnt fix everything by February 2009. So I am demanding the same of the republican controlled house.

    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner View post
    . So they could simply ignore what the Republicans had to say .
    What did they have to say? Other than "death panels!" "socialism!" and "Kenyan!".
    Last edited by NHPlanner; 16 Nov 2010 at 5:28 PM. Reason: double reply
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  22. #522
    Cyburbian ofos's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner View post
    Obama was supposedly a failure because he didnt fix everything by February 2009. So I am demanding the same of the republican controlled house.
    You're demanding that Republicans not fix everything by February 2011?
    “Death comes when memories of the past exceed the vision for the future.”

  23. #523
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by ofos View post
    You're demanding that Republicans not fix everything by February 2011?
    Possibly. I'm not really sure. But I sure am angry about it!
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  24. #524
    Cyburbian wahday's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner View post
    Well, because for the past four years, the Democrats controlled both houses and for the past two years, they've controlled the Presidency as well. So they could simply ignore what the Republicans had to say and railroaded through whatever they wanted because they had the votes to pursue their own agenda without the need to seek Republican input. Now that one party is in control of one house and one in control of the other, they have no choice but to work together if they want to get things done.
    My take, which is probably pretty characteristic of the progressive status quo, is that the Republicans in the last 4 years simply positioned themselves as obstructionists with little more to their agenda (and stated as so by several of them) than stonewalling the President and preventing anything from happening. And this at a time when SO MUCH needs to happen. This recession isn't going to go away by itself, afterall.

    Anyway, I saw very very little in the way of Republicans coming to the table with alternative ideas or a willingness to work as partners on these major issues and that was my point in my original posting. Instead, they have tried to block or delay most everything (including nominees) and then when things go to hell (in part because government has not been nimble enough to respond more quickly, gummed up as they are with obstructionists and not constructive dialogue) to put all the blame on the Dems and the President. Which all made me want to ask - so what were your ideas? But there weren't many so far as I could see.

    So, I will be curious to see if any workable proposals are put forth here or if they will play the game of trying to stonewall more in the hope that they can increase gains in 2012. Which would be really really sad since there is so much business to take care of. Plus, I think that will likely backfire on them.

    We're in a heck of a mess here, so those boys and girls up on the hill better get down to some serious cooperation or we're all going down the crapper together...
    The purpose of life is a life of purpose

  25. #525
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner View post
    Obama was supposedly a failure because he didnt fix everything by February 2009. So I am demanding the same of the republican controlled house.
    Well, I agree it's silly for people to have expected him to fix things by February 2009. I expected things to suck for most of 2009, but by the time 2010 came around, I expected more results, and frankly we haven't really seen much. Obama had an advantage though in that he could have his entire agenda passed since his party was in control of Congress. Since Republicans will only control the House and not the Senate or the Presidency, they can't get their agenda approved as easily as Obama could have.

    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner
    What did they have to say? Other than "death panels!" "socialism!" and "Kenyan!".
    What did they have to say? Well first of all, they had an alternative healthcare plan, H.R. 3400, that Pelosi let remain in committees for ever, while she expedited the Democrats' healthcare plan and without including any of the Republican alternatives, she went ahead and railroaded through where it passed narrowly, instead of being the bipartisan bill it should have been. Additionally, instead of the $787 billion pork-laden stimulus, the Republicans proposed an alternative stimulus that was mostly tangible tax cuts in addition to aid for the unemployed.

    In response to wahday: As pointed out, Republicans did have alternative plans, but instead, they were shot down by Nancy Pelosi who would not allow Republicans to have any input on anything. It's that my-way-or-the-highway attitude of the Speaker that prevented any bipartisan work in the last Congress. So, what do you do in that situation where you're not welcome at the table? The only thing you can do, which is try to block or vote down the Democrats' bills and then try and beat them in the next election. And then when elected, not make the same mistakes they did. This can be done by listening to the American people and allowing the other side to weigh in, which are things that the Democrats did not do a very good job of last Congress.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
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