The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

[fringe]

"...Conservatives need to start asking yourselves weather you want a competent defense now that the bills are coming do, or you won't be able to defend yourselves at all..."

To me the biggest irony of all this defense spending is that none of our military efforts are effective against small groups of fanatics armed with box-cutters, shoe-bombs, underwear bombs, and suicide vests.

What needs to change is our foreign policies. We will not be able to kill off everyone who doesn't like our policies.

[Hink]

What needs to change is our foreign policies. We will not be able to kill off everyone who doesn't like our policies.

I would argue that our foreign policy has changed since Obama was in power. I don't like many of his policies, but I do like that he is willing to have diplomatic relations with people. Bush carried a stick, Obama walks softly. Hopefully, we will see Obama keep diplomacy moving forward and if needed use the stick (i.e. at Iran, N.Korea). I think the way our foreign policy was structured the last eight years, we will be having a much longer time to fix all the hate the U.S. (I believe deservedly...does that make me unAmerican? ) has garnered.

[imaplanner]

I think Obama is doing more to destroy the progressive cause than Bush and Rove ever did or could have hoped for.

[TexanOkie]

After having watched the televised GOP primary debates for the Texas gubernatorial election this year, I've got to admit I'm more than slightly embarrassed... I don't want to vote for any of them. I'm embarrassed for the state of Texas. The thing is, I'd just more likely want to vote for them than their Democratic counterparts when the general election arrives (although I'm open to Bill White if he wins the Dem primary and makes some concessions in his platform during the general election campaign).

At least in national elections I vote for lessers of evils where I can at least respect one of the candidates (but usually I'm not truly embarrassed by any of them).

[hilldweller]

I think Obama is doing more to destroy the progressive cause than Bush and Rove ever did or could have hoped for.

By reaching too far with health care reform? Other than health care I don't really think Obama has really put forward that much of a progressive agenda. I suppose you could argue that the stimulus spending had some ideologically progressive/liberal ambitions, but when you look at the big picture it was really about all about jobs with a major focus on infrastructure. A lot of people on the right are decrying the stimulus spending but I don't think you could say the idea of the stimulus in itself was a progressive one since Bush passed the first stimulus and everybody on both sides of the aisle pretty much supported it. I guess I'd like to hear your reasons why you think Obama is hurting the progressive cause..

[imaplanner]

By reaching too far with health care reform? Other than health care I don't really think Obama has really put forward that much of a progressive agenda. I suppose you could argue that the stimulus spending had some ideologically progressive/liberal ambitions, but when you look at the big picture it was really about all about jobs with a major focus on infrastructure. A lot of people on the right are decrying the stimulus spending but I don't think you could say the idea of the stimulus in itself was a progressive one since Bush passed the first stimulus and everybody on both sides of the aisle pretty much supported it. I guess I'd like to hear your reasons why you think Obama is hurting the progressive cause..

No - I'm saying the opposite of what you think I am saying. He's destroying the movement by not being progressive. He's governing as a moderate republican with terrible ideas while simultaneously allowing republicans to convince the populace that he is too liberal. And at the same time he is frustrating and seriously turning off the younger generation from political involvement - because they worked so hard to elect him because he campaigned on progressive issues and then he instantly turned around and became conservative and refused to do anything that he said he would do. Thanks for working so hard to get me elected now screw u and while I sell you out to corporations.

The biggest example is of course the health care bill (although there are plenty of other examples). The bill he's trying to ram through is hardly progressive- it's to the right of Nixon's platform for chrisakes. He sold out the public to insurance companies and has been actively trying to get congress to pass an unpopular health care bill that only benefits the insurance companies. Polls show people overwhelmingly support a public option but they hate the bill that he's trying to ram through (because its a damn awful bill). Most people know about his backroom deal with big pharma that hurts Americans, but now it looks like he also made a backroom deal with insurance companies that there would be no public option.

[TexanOkie]

Well, the Texas governor's race is official: Rick Perry for the GOP and Bill White for the Democrats. I have never voted for Rick Perry, and I'm pretty sure I won't this year either. In the last governor's election, I voted for the Libertarian candidate. This year, however, the Texas Democratic Party has put forward a fiscally conservative, socially moderate, and pragmatic (as opposed to ideological; also, not in the sense that President Obama is considered "pragmatic", either, because, let's face it, despite his intention to be, thus far in his administration he's not been such, regardless of different political groups' analysis as to why) candidate in Bill White, so there's a good chance I'll vote "D" for a major political candidate for the first time ever this November.

Also, while I hope Perry's campaign - which so far has been about nothing related to state government except for arcane, inane, and at times insane statements about the nature of federalism in this country - starts actually addressing actual issues, his victory speech last night appeared to say no, it won't. Bill White's victory speech, in my opinion, hammered this fact and completely burned Perry. Unfortunately, Perry's campaign tactics will probably win him the election because most Texans are too dumb to: (1) look past the "R" or "D" next to a candidate's name on a ballot sheet; and (2) understand that there's a difference between state and national politics and government that is not a deeply flawed idea of about who trumps who and how.

Bill White's Victory Speech Audio: http://www.texastribune.org/audio/20...ictory-speech/
Rick Perry's Victory Speech Audio: http://www.texastribune.org/audio/20...ictory-speech/

[imaplanner]

Well, the Texas governor's race is official: Rick Perry for the GOP and Bill White for the Democrats. I have never voted for Rick Perry, and I'm pretty sure I won't this year either. In the last governor's election, I voted for the Libertarian candidate. This year, however, the Texas Democratic Party has put forward a fiscally conservative, socially moderate, and pragmatic (as opposed to ideological; also, not in the sense that President Obama is considered "pragmatic", either, because, let's face it, despite his intention to be, thus far in his administration he's not been such, regardless of different political groups' analysis as to why) candidate in Bill White, so there's a good chance I'll vote "D" for a major political candidate for the first time ever this November.

Also, while I hope Perry's campaign - which so far has been about nothing related to state government except for arcane, inane, and at times insane statements about the nature of federalism in this country - starts actually addressing actual issues, his victory speech last night appeared to say no, it won't. Bill White's victory speech, in my opinion, hammered this fact and completely burned Perry. Unfortunately, Perry's campaign tactics will probably win him the election because most Texans are too dumb to: (1) look past the "R" or "D" next to a candidate's name on a ballot sheet; and (2) understand that there's a difference between state and national politics and government that is not a deeply flawed idea of about who trumps who and how.

Bill White's Victory Speech Audio: http://www.texastribune.org/audio/20...ictory-speech/
Rick Perry's Victory Speech Audio: http://www.texastribune.org/audio/20...ictory-speech/

Perry's being mentioned as a potential 2012 presidential candidate? Isn't this the guy who made some statements about suceeding from the US? The patriotism of some Americans is really quite odd.

[TexanOkie]

Perry's being mentioned as a potential 2012 presidential candidate? Isn't this the guy who made some statements about suceeding from the US? The patriotism of some Americans is really quite odd.

Perry won't make it past the primaries if he is a presidential candidate. Unlike his predecessor, George W. Bush, Perry doesn't have much of any successful endeavors he can boast under his governorship. W was actually a decent, if not good, governor. Too bad the skills and successes he had here didn't translate to the Federal arena. I can imagine most liberals outside Texas (and those in Texas who can't remember the 1990s) won't believe this about Bush. Well, either that, or draw some negative conclusion about Texas and Texans as a result.

[Suburb Repairman]

Well, the Texas governor's race is official: Rick Perry for the GOP and Bill White for the Democrats. I have never voted for Rick Perry, and I'm pretty sure I won't this year either. In the last governor's election, I voted for the Libertarian candidate. This year, however, the Texas Democratic Party has put forward a fiscally conservative, socially moderate, and pragmatic (as opposed to ideological; also, not in the sense that President Obama is considered "pragmatic", either, because, let's face it, despite his intention to be, thus far in his administration he's not been such, regardless of different political groups' analysis as to why) candidate in Bill White, so there's a good chance I'll vote "D" for a major political candidate for the first time ever this November.

Also, while I hope Perry's campaign - which so far has been about nothing related to state government except for arcane, inane, and at times insane statements about the nature of federalism in this country - starts actually addressing actual issues, his victory speech last night appeared to say no, it won't. Bill White's victory speech, in my opinion, hammered this fact and completely burned Perry. Unfortunately, Perry's campaign tactics will probably win him the election because most Texans are too dumb to: (1) look past the "R" or "D" next to a candidate's name on a ballot sheet; and (2) understand that there's a difference between state and national politics and government that is not a deeply flawed idea of about who trumps who and how.

Bill White's Victory Speech Audio: http://www.texastribune.org/audio/20...ictory-speech/
Rick Perry's Victory Speech Audio: http://www.texastribune.org/audio/20...ictory-speech/

Glad to hear that you are willing to pull a lever for White despite him being on the democratic ticket. White is an excellent, well-qualified candidate that is proof that no one party has the market cornered on fiscal responsibility. Several folks around Houston refer to his mayoral period as a golden age for them due to his ability to get things accomplished and bring together groups that had historically opposed each other. Like you though, I'm very concerned about the intellect of the average Texas voter and the likelihood of Perry painting White with the national politics paintbrush rather than focusing on the real issues of our state. I hate that our governor has no understanding of the U.S. Constitution or Texas Constitution. Also, the statements he has been making about the 10th amendment in his ads make me very uncomfortable--they are very similar to arguments made in southern states just before the Civil War.

I'm pretty sure you and I have already had a discussion about the quality of Bush's governorship and decided to agree to disagree, so I'll let that sleeping dog lie.

imaplanner: don't worry too much about him being a Presidential candidate. He would last about five seconds in a primary. I also don't think he could withstand the digging that would occur during vetting for a national race--the dude has plenty of skeletons to play with.

[TexanOkie]

The patriotism of some Americans is really quite odd.

Perry isn't so much an American patriot so much as he is a Texan patriot. That is why I could never be a "true Texan" (as would be said is some circles down here) - I love the United States more than I love this state, and my allegiance and loyalties lie with country as a whole, for better or worse.

That being said, I do (deep down) have a soft spot for this place and I definitely admire it's creed of rugged individualism (once upon a time the creed was actually played out, even... oh well).

[Hink]

Mitt Romney and Sarah Palin on late night talk shows.... Palin attempts humor and Romney still tries to pretend that he is not seriously ready to consider if he is going to run or not. After 2010 elections he will know... really?

Politicians on late night talk shows seems odd to me. I do somewhat like it, in that it shows they have some sense of humor or wit, but at least in these cases, both came off as odd, and less attractive politically to me. Maybe it is because I think both are pretty fake people and only put on faces...

[CJC]

^Depends on the show for me. I always look forward to politicians on the Daily Show, especially folks like Ron Paul and Mike Huckabee. I think it often results in some really good debate, and while I may not agree with most of what Paul or Huckabee have to say, I certainly respect them and am always curious to hear their views and opinions.

[imaplanner]

Excellent article in newsweek about why the country is unable to deal with anything other than short term political BS

[kjel]

Excellent article in newsweek about why the country is unable to deal with anything other than short term political BS

Very good article.

[Hink]

^Depends on the show for me. I always look forward to politicians on the Daily Show, especially folks like Ron Paul and Mike Huckabee. I think it often results in some really good debate, and while I may not agree with most of what Paul or Huckabee have to say, I certainly respect them and am always curious to hear their views and opinions.

I don't really consider the Daily show or Colbert late night tv. I think of it as it's own unique section of programing I guess. Although Jon Stewart was rated the must trusted news anchor, I still don't think Comedy Central is mainstream to most people.

Leno and Letterman have to toe the line in terms of politics, Jon Stewart attacks it. Colbert goes beyond it.

I think that if Al Gore was more like 2002 Al Gore and less like 1999 Al Gore he might have won. Only after he lost did he show that he had a personality (SNL, Leno, Letterman, etc.).

[TexanOkie]

This is going to seem random.

I believe that, if the ideal candidate was in each position, here's how my voting tendencies would lie:

Federal elections - libertarian-conservative
State elections - moderate-conservative, yet still okay with granting local governments pretty broad powers (not mandating things, but allowing them)
Local elections - liberal-progressive

I guess I wanted to post this so that Cyburbians would know that I'm not against liberal or progressive ideologies. I strive in my own personal life to fight for social justice for those less fortunate than I am (my religious convictions play a large role in this). And I'm a planner, so I'm fairly certain my views on the built environment are not in line with traditional libertarian-type philosophies I espouse at the national level, but I do want progressive development policies to be tempered by market capitalism, personal liberty, and pragmatism. All of this stems from an idea that progressive ideas work best when adopted locally, and that proper interpretations of Constitutional federalism require many of them to be at the state and local level and not at the federal level.

Anywho, just a short expose about my political leanings. I'm sure it'll serve no purpose, and I'm not trying to argue any points of my political philosophy.

In other news, I hate the words "nullify" and "nullification". I think they're retarded. Blast you, Texas GOP and your good ol' boy candidates constantly barking at me...

[imaplanner]

So now that HCR passed republicans in the senate are refusing to do anything for the rest of the year? Including invoking a little used senate clause to slose the senate at 2pm? Combined with increasing violence against democratic senators that the GOP seems to be encouraging - what the heck is going on? I just can't see how this is a winning strategy for them. Has a major political party ever been so childish?

[Bubba]

...increasing violence against democratic senators that the GOP seems to be encouraging...

Is that just your opinion (that the GOP is encouraging violence against Democratic congress members), or is there anything concrete to back that up? Honest question - I'm barely paying any attention to the health care bill...seems like actual Republican Party encouragement of such stuff would be a case of shooting themselves in the foot (not that either party is immune to doing that over and over).

[imaplanner]

Is that just your opinion (that the GOP is encouraging violence against Democratic congress members), or is there anything concrete to back that up? Honest question - I'm barely paying any attention to the health care bill...seems like actual Republican Party encouragement of such stuff would be a case of shooting themselves in the foot (not that either party is immune to doing that over and over).

Well yeah - that's why I said "seems to be". They are certainly firing up the crazies- by saying things like "This is Armagedden". "This is worse than 9-11". "The democrats are a bigger threat to freedom loving Americans than Al Qaeda!". Palin says we should take them all out and put pictures of top dems with crosshairs on them on her website.

With the exception of some minor statements the other day from Steele and Boner, I haven't seen any republicans denounce the rhetoric and violence that's been happening. Tom Periello's brothers house was just vandalized. Democratic lawmakers have had offices vandalized. And republicans are out there whipping these groups up.

That's probably all subjective. But I guess my main point was about the senate republicans refusing now to allow any further senate business to happen - supposedly until the end of the term (according to old man McCain). They shut down the senate all day today. How is that going to help them politically? It seems like they are aligning themselves with the crazies. Perhapos they are making a political calculation that there's alot of crazies out there?

[mgk920]

No mainstream political party will EVER advocate anything like what is written about a couple of post above. Yes, I do wish ill towards most of the 'D's - in their next upcoming election. I *don't* want them destroyed, I want them defeated. I will be vigorously campaigning against USSenator Russ Feingold and USHouse Rep. Steve Kagen this fall in my strong desire, among other things, that even if the recently-passed 'health' bill isn't or can't be repealed, that it can be substantially modified to remove its worst aspects and to at least try to make it into a decent, sustainable law.

Unlike many on the left, I do not blindly and constantly go name-calling and making ad-hominum attacks, nor go out purposely misspelling names of people nor organizations in my writings (I personally do not say things 'PMSNBC', 'Osama Obama', etc, and I challenge all of the liberals in Cyburbialand to do likewise.). I like working and winning in the arena of public opinion, where I firmly believe that I am ultimately on the winning side.

Right now, the press corps is out trolling for ANYTHING that will make the conservatives look bad while ignoring (or at last trying to ignore) anything that could possibly blemish the left and especially our current administration - and I can see right through them.

Mike

[imaplanner]

No mainstream political party will EVER advocate anything like what is written about a couple of post above.

I guess the GOP isn't a mainstream political party anymore then? I would agree with you on that front.

Unlike many on the left, I do not blindly and constantly go name-calling and making ad-hominum attacks, nor go out purposely misspelling names of people nor organizations in my writings (I personally do not say things 'PMSNBC', 'Osama Obama', etc, and I challenge all of the liberals in Cyburbialand to do likewise.). I like working and winning in the arena of public opinion, where I firmly believe that I am ultimately on the winning side.

Agreed. Other than some poor taste usage of Obama's middle name or your determination to call him either "the messiah" or "the nameless one" I guess.

But just because some liberal type people on here do it doesn't mean the left does it. Take a peek over at any remotely right wing forum lately and see what kind of ad-hominem attacks are being used. Don't pretend like its just the left that does it.

[Hink]

The scary thing to me is that we are getting to a point, where logic no longer rings true. I think that we are going to keep on this path until a Tea Partier does something just crazy enough to either: A.) Hurt another human, or B.) Get themselves imprisoned for trying to do something crazy illegal.

I think that the reason we argue that either party is worse is because when they aren't in power they attack in different ways. G.W. Bush was made to look like a fool. The D's pushed that he was stupid and was linked to oil. They had peace protests, and their rhetoric was about how much he wasn't able to handle the position, and how he was a war president. They put him down in terms of intellegence and ability. The D's do not fear monger, they misinform, put down, and degrade.

The R's do not play by the same rules. When they aren't in power they rally the troops to be active. Pushing muslim background, not a U.S. citizen, and for only black causes. They used Hussain, not because it was his middle name but because he invoked fear. They called him the messiah because they thought people were worshiping him - and that he was "appointed". They use the words socialist, communist, and other words that invoke memories of Stalin and the third Reich. The R's fear monger. They misinform and they incite fear.

The major difference is that when the D's are putting down a president and highlighting only certain aspects of his presidency it brings their base together to make fun of his stupidity and hate of his policies. When the R's are making people fear a president it brings out the worst in a misinformed base.

My problem with what the R's are doing now, is not so much in the fact that they are playing politics, but in that they are creating a scared society. They are making it seem as if we are all going to die. "Death Panels" - or otherwise known as reasonable discussions about death. The "Apocalypse" - or otherwise known as the day after a large piece of legislation that we didn't agree with passed.

We need to find a way to tone down the fear, bring civil discourse back to our country. If yelling over someone at a town hall makes you an American, than we are in a bad place. Respect, honor, and integrity are what make this country great. We need to find a way back to where we can agree to disagree, we can compromise, and we can understand that BOTH sides play these stupid games - it is politics.

[mgk920]

Remember that the USA's system was set up at the very beginning to be divided, with many checks and balances from different branches with the intent that they be hostile towards each other. Two hostile-towards-each-other branches of Congress, hostile to/from the executive branch and hostile to/from the judicial branch - and then there are all of those pesky semi-sovereign states. The very WORST thing would be for all of them to be in agreement - because then we *WILL* have tyranny.

Donnybrook arguments are the USA's system AT ITS BEST and the level of discord we are seeing now is not at all unusual and is in fact quite MILD when compared with the 230+ years of USA history. For example, recall that Alexander Hamilton (the guy on the $10 note) died in a shooting dual with a political rival (Aaron Burr).



Mike

[btrage]

Remember that the USA's system was set up at the very beginning to be divided, with many checks and balances from different branches with the intent that they be hostile towards each other. Two hostile-towards-each-other branches of Congress, hostile to/from the executive branch and hostile to/from the judicial branch - and then there are all of those pesky semi-sovereign states. The very WORST thing would be for all of them to be in agreement - because then we *WILL* have tyranny.

Donnybrook arguments are the USA's system AT ITS BEST and the level of discord we are seeing now is not at all unusual and is in fact quite MILD when compared with the 230+ years of USA history. For example, recall that Alexander Hamilton (the guy on the $10 note) died in a shooting dual with a political rival (Aaron Burr).



Mike

I agree completely. But don't you think that the multi-media society we live in today brings a certain amount of misinformation into the donnybrooks that are occurring? The misinformed outliers of both political parties use the media to flame the donnybrooks. So while I agree that the system was set up to encourage "division", society today is very different from when Burr took out Hamilton. The general public's ability to access (mis)information demands that we are more responsible about how we portray ourselves and others.