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Thread: The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

  1. #8201
    moderator in moderation Suburb Repairman's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    I was just about to post a question about the why when I saw your post. I read the article, and I think it is very interesting and on one hand, I agree 100% but on the other hand they are missing some significant differences. One such difference is in regards to hunting. There is a profound difference between hunting and just killing animals to watch them die.

    Additionally, why is it that most of the time, these acts are caused by guys? Is there something going on with girls that makes them less likely to commit these horrific acts?
    Toxic masculinity coupled with loneliness. People underestimate the impact isolation has on a person, particularly in their formative years and into the awful hormonal ride that is middle & high school. Many men & boys struggle to process emotion in a productive manner, due at least in part to warped societal beliefs regarding masculinity, "what it means to be a man" and what type of emotional outlets are acceptable. Tack onto that the violence-based culture alluded to in the Taibbi article, and you've got a damn powder keg.

    Of course, this could even come down to genetic degradation: http://theconversation.com/the-y-chr...n-to-men-90125 (somewhat tongue-in-cheek)

    "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

    - Herman Göring at the Nuremburg trials (thoughts on democracy)

  2. #8202
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Suburb Repairman View post
    Toxic masculinity coupled with loneliness. People underestimate the impact isolation has on a person, particularly in their formative years and into the awful hormonal ride that is middle & high school. Many men & boys struggle to process emotion in a productive manner, due at least in part to warped societal beliefs regarding masculinity, "what it means to be a man" and what type of emotional outlets are acceptable. Tack onto that the violence-based culture alluded to in the Taibbi article, and you've got a damn powder keg.
    I think you are correct. Add in the number of fatherless households, society having polar opposites on their definition of what it is to be a man, and a gross misunderstanding of a man's roll in society, it is no wonder. Too many boys are raised without guidance and while it is nothing against single mothers who do the best they can, they are not genetically equipped to handle it. Same with single father's raising daughters. I also think that too many men are unwilling to act as a father figure to those in need. That is why think bouscouts and church programs are so important.


    In a side note, there was quite a discussion at between some people waiting in line to pay a bill regarding if teachers should have the choice to be armed or not. One of them pointed out that it the teachers job is to teach and nothing else. The other pointed out that we need to make sure that there are councilors in every class room, they should remove all fire extinguishers since we can't expect them to be firefighters, that they should double or triple the custodial staff to clean up every time something gets spilled, interior decorators to hang stuff on the walls, and an IT person for every student. Personally, I think they should be given the option, if they are willing to go though additional and extensive training.
    If you want different results in your life, you need to do different things than you have done in the past. Change is that simple.

  3. #8203
    Unfrozen Caveman Planner mendelman's avatar
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    No armed teachers, staff or administrators in schools.

    It's a fictional panacea that really won't, in my opinion, decrease a threat's potential level of harm.

    How many burglars enter buildings where the security guard is stationed? Do we have armed roving bands of adults constantly circulating and positioned at every point of a school building?

    Think about every teacher/staff/administrator you know/have known. How many of them would you want armed with a loaded gun? How many would want that responsibility?

    This 'arm the teachers' suggestion is a red herring. We need to safely secure the kids in place once something starts and/or work to prevent the threat from ever developing.
    I'm sorry. Is my bias showing?

    Every day is today. Yesterday is a myth and tomorrow an illusion.

    You know...for kids.

  4. #8204
    Cyburbian WSU MUP Student's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by mendelman View post
    No armed teachers, staff or administrators in schools.


    This 'arm the teachers' suggestion is a red herring. We need to safely secure the kids in place once something starts and/or work to prevent the threat from ever developing.
    Hear, hear!
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  5. #8205
    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    Show of hands, who thinks the Smoot Hawley Tariff Act was good for the US (or for that matter the world) economy? Anyone have statistics on how many jobs were saved or how much our economy grew as a result of the Act?
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

  6. #8206
    Cyburbian
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    Quote Originally posted by mendelman View post
    No armed teachers, staff or administrators in schools.

    It's a fictional panacea that really won't, in my opinion, decrease a threat's potential level of harm.

    How many burglars enter buildings where the security guard is stationed? Do we have armed roving bands of adults constantly circulating and positioned at every point of a school building?

    Think about every teacher/staff/administrator you know/have known. How many of them would you want armed with a loaded gun? How many would want that responsibility?

    This 'arm the teachers' suggestion is a red herring. We need to safely secure the kids in place once something starts and/or work to prevent the threat from ever developing.
    More than that... I just think about how much training law enforcement and military personnel go through to learn how to respond to situations like this. Is it really practical to think that a few classes and some occasional training can prepare a teacher to respond appropriately without putting themselves or other bystanders at risk in a mass shooting situation? It is a highly stressful environment and there are a ton of things you have to be aware of if you're going to engage in firing at someone with LOTS of people around. It creates a lot of liability.

  7. #8207
    Cyburbian Raf's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Maister View post
    Show of hands, who thinks the Smoot Hawley Tariff Act was good for the US (or for that matter the world) economy? Anyone have statistics on how many jobs were saved or how much our economy grew as a result of the Act?
    Answer:
    No Signature Required

  8. #8208
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by mendelman View post
    No armed teachers, staff or administrators in schools.

    It's a fictional panacea that really won't, in my opinion, decrease a threat's potential level of harm.

    How many burglars enter buildings where the security guard is stationed? Do we have armed roving bands of adults constantly circulating and positioned at every point of a school building?

    Think about every teacher/staff/administrator you know/have known. How many of them would you want armed with a loaded gun? How many would want that responsibility?

    This 'arm the teachers' suggestion is a red herring. We need to safely secure the kids in place once something starts and/or work to prevent the threat from ever developing.
    Yea... um. How has that approach worked so far? How many kids are being killed in these "Gun Free Zones"?

    I would agree IF (and yes, that is a big if) we were able to safely secure the kids in place. Unfortunately, we haven't and I don't think we will. We have issues with the schools here putting in bidirectional radio repeaters to allow police and fire to communicate inside the school to those outside. There are tons of devices that were invented after Sandy Hook. How many of them were installed? The other day I walked my middle son to his class room just to see what would happen. There was a gun free zone sticker on the door, but no one there to actually enforce it. I did not check into the office but walked with him down the hall. The doors all have very basic and flimsy handles and locks that would not be difficult to kick in. No one said anything to me at all. I did the same thing at my oldest's school but they had newer metal doors that actually looked less secure than the wood doors at my middle son's school.

    The stupid stickers on the doors are not going to keep the guns out of the schools or other buildings. If schools are going to be a gun free zone, then districts need to find a way to pay for a guard at a primary entrance and a metal detector. If we want these places to be as safe as airports and court houses, we need to do what it takes to really make a difference. Until then give the teachers the choice if they want to go through advanced training and background checks to carry a concealed weapon.

    So back to the question... if you don't want to allow teachers who have gone through additional training and background checks to carry a concealed weapon in class, please share with us your genius plan to keep our students safe. You all seem super passionate about keeping guns out of the hands of those who you trust with your child's lives, so tell me and the rest of the world exactly what they need to do to protect the lives of our kids if you won't let them be armed. You don't have problems with famous people, politicians, wealthy people, and other people having armed body guards. Some of these people have almost zero training but I am sure that is beyond the point.
    If you want different results in your life, you need to do different things than you have done in the past. Change is that simple.

  9. #8209
    Cyburbian Planit's avatar
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    There are already guns in schools. They are in the hands of trained law enforcement officers called School Resource Officers or SROs. Just having a trained law enforcement officer with a firearm does not / has not stopped the crazies from shooting the place up...nor will having a somewhat trained educator with a firearm. This is a proven fact and not a theory.

    Now can we make it more difficult to access a school? Yes.
    Can we have more live action cameras (& not on a delay)? Yes.
    Can we implement some quick fixes to doors for access like what happened to airplane cockpit doors after 9-11? Yes.
    Do we HONESTLY think giving educators firearms will stop a determined person from entering a school and killing students and teachers? No.
    "Whatever beer I'm drinking, is better than the one I'm not." DMLW
    "Budweiser sells a product they reflectively insist on calling beer." John Oliver

  10. #8210
    Cyburbian
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    So back to the question... if you don't want to allow teachers who have gone through additional training and background checks to carry a concealed weapon in class, please share with us your genius plan to keep our students safe. You all seem super passionate about keeping guns out of the hands of those who you trust with your child's lives, so tell me and the rest of the world exactly what they need to do to protect the lives of our kids if you won't let them be armed. You don't have problems with famous people, politicians, wealthy people, and other people having armed body guards. Some of these people have almost zero training but I am sure that is beyond the point.
    I think most of us that are opposed to this are also in favor of working on interventions that prevent a mass shooter from even engaging initially. No, a sign won't make people with a gun not enter a gun-free zone. But common sense gun control regulations can limit the access, peer training programs to encourage students starting from a very young age to encourage each other, stronger counseling services in schools, etc. Regardless, once an armed gunman gets into a school ready to cause damage, it's really too late to have a "good" solution.

  11. #8211
    Cyburbian WSU MUP Student's avatar
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    Let's not gloss over the myth that the NRA likes to promote that a good guy with a gun will stop a bad guy with a gun. The shooter in Parkland, Fl had never been arrested for or convicted of a crime that would disqualify him from legally purchasing a firearm. He was never adjudicated mentally unfit or a danger to himself or others which may have prevented him from legally purchasing or obtaining a firearm. He legally purchased the rifle he used in that school. By the NRA's standards, he was a good guy with a gun right up until he squeezed that trigger. Giving more "good guys" guns doesn't prevent gun violence, it just makes it easier and faster for a good guy to turn into a bad guy.
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  12. #8212
    Cyburbian MD Planner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    Yea... um. How has that approach worked so far? How many kids are being killed in these "Gun Free Zones"?

    .
    Oh boy, I've typed and deleted responses to this issue all day. So at the risk of being labeled completely unsympathetic (which I most certainly am not!) here goes the answer to your question:

    Not nearly enough to justify this absurd overreaction of arming teachers.

    Yes, mass shootings are horrific simply because of their very nature and when it involves children it is even a worse blow to our sensibilities. But here's the thing. There are several things that kill a lot more school children every year than someone with a gun. A lot more. Look up how many children are killed when they are pedestrians. I saw one study that said for every hour of every day a teen pedestrian is killed. That's just teens. Kids are a hell of a lot safer once they get to school than when they're not there. We always want to put a band-aid on everything in this country. We don't treat the disease, we treat the symptom. How about we dedicate more funding to preventing child abuse that ends in death with anger management and parenting coping skills? How about we train teachers and others to perhaps better recognize at-risk/possibly dangerous kids. How about we make counseling for people who have serious emotional problems much more accessible and socially acceptable so that there is not such a stigma attached to it? I could go on and on.

    My point is not that school shootings aren't completely tragic, just that a whole lot more kids die in other ways that can be prevented and maybe we should put more funding toward solving some of those problems instead of arming teachers who may or not be remotely ready to deal with such a situation. And don't tell me they will get "training". We have police officers who have training and it is assumed are prepared to shoot while being shot at. That doesn't always work as we've recently seen. Plus, look at the poor "hit" percentage of police officers when they are in a gunfight. The numbers are not good. Yet people want relatively untrained and untested armed teachers to be able to be mentally prepared to possibly take a life, fire a gun in a potentially very crowded area and be under control enough in a highly stressed environment to take and make a good shot. The National Association of School Resource Officers opposes arming teachers for a myriad of reasons. I guess in between actual instruction of students, preparing lesson plans, grading papers, being a social worker, guidance counselor, nurse, and god knows what else we ask teachers to be these days they should find time to wander down to to the range for some target practice and live fire exercises.
    He's a planner, he's a dreamer, he's a sordid little schemer,
    Seems to think that money grows on trees . . .

  13. #8213
    Unfrozen Caveman Planner mendelman's avatar
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    Note: I don't engage this thread often and almost never, but I felt I needed to this time. As you all know I have three elementary age children right now (2nd, 3rd & 4th).

    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    Yea... um. How has that approach worked so far? How many kids are being killed in these "Gun Free Zones"?

    I would agree IF (and yes, that is a big if) we were able to safely secure the kids in place.

    [snip]

    Some of these people have almost zero training but I am sure that is beyond the point.
    I didn't say anything about "Gun Free Zone" policies or placards. So, stop.

    There are probably almost innumerable ways to efficiently and cost effectively retrofit even the oldest operating school buildings and policies to slow or stop the impact of an attack, similar to the concepts of CPTED (crime prevention through environmental design).
    • require non-student controlled access through a highly visible path
    • tazer (maybe gun) armed guards (but friendly looking)
    • substantial fire doors (ie solid) for all classrooms and gathering spaces
    • exterior exit only doors on all classrooms and gathering spaces
    • all classrooms and gathering areas with at least one exterior wall
    • There are probably many others I don't know about or can think about at the moment since I'm not a design and safety professional, just a thoughtful reasonable concerned parent and human

    From your son's school example, I think your administration is severely lacking on updating policies and procedures. You need to worry about that right now.

    Our school has already implemented strict access control to the building for students and visitors alike. And if our school really wanted to get going we could implement some relatively simple building changes to accommodate secure in place plans or emergency classroom exit exterior doors as our school building, although built in 1966, is one floor and each classroom and gathering room has an exterior building wall.

    Lastly, there is no reason to have more guns purposely put into a school when that will do nothing to make anyone more secure due to simple insufficient coverage. We should make it hard for people to be shot while within a school building and/or make it possible to get as many, if not all, people to escape from the building from as many different points as quickly as possible.
    I'm sorry. Is my bias showing?

    Every day is today. Yesterday is a myth and tomorrow an illusion.

    You know...for kids.

  14. #8214
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    Yea... um. How has that approach worked so far? How many kids are being killed in these "Gun Free Zones"?

    I would agree IF (and yes, that is a big if) we were able to safely secure the kids in place. Unfortunately, we haven't and I don't think we will. We have issues with the schools here putting in bidirectional radio repeaters to allow police and fire to communicate inside the school to those outside. There are tons of devices that were invented after Sandy Hook. How many of them were installed? The other day I walked my middle son to his class room just to see what would happen. There was a gun free zone sticker on the door, but no one there to actually enforce it. I did not check into the office but walked with him down the hall. The doors all have very basic and flimsy handles and locks that would not be difficult to kick in. No one said anything to me at all. I did the same thing at my oldest's school but they had newer metal doors that actually looked less secure than the wood doors at my middle son's school.

    The stupid stickers on the doors are not going to keep the guns out of the schools or other buildings. If schools are going to be a gun free zone, then districts need to find a way to pay for a guard at a primary entrance and a metal detector. If we want these places to be as safe as airports and court houses, we need to do what it takes to really make a difference. Until then give the teachers the choice if they want to go through advanced training and background checks to carry a concealed weapon.

    So back to the question... if you don't want to allow teachers who have gone through additional training and background checks to carry a concealed weapon in class, please share with us your genius plan to keep our students safe. You all seem super passionate about keeping guns out of the hands of those who you trust with your child's lives, so tell me and the rest of the world exactly what they need to do to protect the lives of our kids if you won't let them be armed. You don't have problems with famous people, politicians, wealthy people, and other people having armed body guards. Some of these people have almost zero training but I am sure that is beyond the point.


    This wasn’t a gun free zone. There was an armed police officer there.
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

  15. #8215
    Cyburbian Veloise's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner View post
    This wasn’t a gun free zone. There was an armed police officer there.
    And today's reports indicated that he radioed arriving LEO to "stay 500 feet away" from the school, so they did.

  16. #8216
    Cyburbian Raf's avatar
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    45 is meeting with Kim Jung Un. Other than hoping he doesn't get played, I actually applaud this move, albeit skeptical because this seems like I have seen this play out on some reality tv show before.
    No Signature Required

  17. #8217
    Cyburbian Richmond Jake's avatar
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    Need a Presidential pardon? Go on Faux News and mention Hillary.

    Trump’s Latest Pardon Shows The Best Way To Get One: Go On Fox News


    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b07047bec662d1
    Habitual Offender

  18. #8218
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    There are several thoughts, but to summarize, I don't support the NRA, I think teachers should be given the choice to conceal if they are willing to go thgoub6 and pay for extra training, and I think that we as a society need to do a better job of working with youth to prevent these kids from wanting to do something like this. I so think we need to do a better job to secure our classrooms and make gun free zones truly gun free. Otherwise people conceal carry.

    I applaud Trump for takIing a meeting with the rocket man and basketball is not a real sport.
    If you want different results in your life, you need to do different things than you have done in the past. Change is that simple.

  19. #8219
    Cyburbian Plus
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    What a Headline - MP Holy Grail reference

    Lieu mocks DeVos: She wasn't asked the 'airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow'
    http://thehill.com/homenews/house/37...-of-an-unladen

  20. #8220
    Cyburbian Veloise's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by JNA View post
    What a Headline - MP Holy Grail reference

    Lieu mocks DeVos: She wasn't asked the 'airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow'
    http://thehill.com/homenews/house/37...-of-an-unladen
    Living where I do, in a city with her family's name on many large buildings and entities...what a trainwreck.

    a friend who works for the convention & visitor's bureau said that they call it "the convention center," not DV Place

  21. #8221
    Cyburbian The Terminator's avatar
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    Whats worse. Putin's Russia or the USSR?

    Its hard to say.

  22. #8222
    Quote Originally posted by The Terminator View post
    Whats worse. Putin's Russia or the USSR?

    Its hard to say.
    Putin. No question. His is the biggest monster on the face of the earth. And he gave Trump the Presidency, creating the biggest monster in the free world.

    Remember, that the USSR had Gorby.

  23. #8223
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  24. #8224
    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by The Terminator View post
    Whats worse. Putin's Russia or the USSR?

    Its hard to say.
    USSR hands down. Two words: Josef Stalin.
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

  25. #8225
    Cyburbian WSU MUP Student's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by The Terminator View post
    Whats worse. Putin's Russia or the USSR?

    Its hard to say.
    Quote Originally posted by Super Amputee Cat View post
    Putin. No question. His is the biggest monster on the face of the earth. And he gave Trump the Presidency, creating the biggest monster in the free world.

    Remember, that the USSR had Gorby.
    Quote Originally posted by Maister View post
    USSR hands down. Two words: Josef Stalin.
    Stalin was my first thought as well. How many millions did his purges kill off? Putin is no saint, but he's also no Stalin.
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