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Thread: The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

  1. #2051
    Cyburbian WSU MUP Student's avatar
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    I was a frequent patron of Chick-Fil-A when I lived in NC but anybody who is honestly surprised by the owner's views must never have actually set foot in one of their establishments. Not only are they not open on Sundays, but they have Bible verses on the walls and stories about the founder's faith printed on the paper place mats. He was never really hiding his views before any of this anyway.

    I have never heard of a substantiated claim of discrimination regarding Chick-Fil-A so I really don't care that the owner gives his money to organizations I might not agree with. If politicians in Chicago and Boston are really that steadfast in their opposition to Chick-Fil-A because of their views towards the LGBT community, are these cities also going to stop the Catholic church from opening up new parishes in the city?
    "Where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost." - 1980 Republican presidential candidate Ronald Reagan

  2. #2052
    Cyburbian hilldweller's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Suburb Repairman View post
    However, it is worth noting that in countries with stricter gun laws, violent crime rates are lower.
    There's some evidence suggesting the same correlation applies to U.S. states with stricter gun laws:

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...-violence.html

    Firearm deaths are significantly lower in states with stricter gun control legislation. Though the sample sizes are small, we find substantial negative correlations between firearm deaths and states that ban assault weapons (-.45), require trigger locks (-.42), and mandate safe storage requirements for guns (-.48).
    I'm not sure what "safe storage requirements" means- does this factor in "Stand Your Ground" laws and other laws allowing guns in public places?

    Edit: I didn't realize this was Richard Florida's analysis so I immediately question it (and you should too)..
    Last edited by hilldweller; 26 Jul 2012 at 2:38 PM.

  3. #2053
    Cyburbian
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    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner View post
    What about sales over the internet? http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011...gun-sales.html

    Also, can't you buy thousands and thousands of rounds of ammo with no tracking? I kind of feel like if you buy thousands of rounds it should probably raise some sort of a red flag.
    When a buyer purchases a firearm over the internet he/she still has to contact a FFL holder/dealer and pass the background check. Most FFL holders/dealers will charge a nominal fee ($25 is the average) for doing the background check and transferring the firearm to the purchaser. One cannot simply buy a firearm online and it be shipped directly to them, unless that person has a FFL.

    Ammunition is a different story. You can buy ammunition online, by catalog, or over the phone however you have to first provide the place of purchase with your photo id by email, fax, or postal mail. This is to prove you are over the age of 18 or 21 if you're buying pistol cartridges (i.e. .40, .45, .9mm). Shipping ammunition is not cheap as it typically has to travel via ground transportation and if in bulk it is heavy. The USPS refuses to ship ammunition. The fear in many circles is that the current and future administrations will make ammunition scarce by taxing it much higher than the current rate. I will also state that due to the high demand of metals overseas ammunition prices have increase by 20% over the last 18 months.

    All armor piercing bullets are illegal for the general public to own. The only caliber that I'm aware of that the U.S. military uses and that is someones plated to be armor piercing is the .50 caliber. Years ago the Olin Corporation, they make Winchester ammunition, made a bullet call the Black Talon. The lead core, copper jacketed bullet (99% of bullets are constructed in this manner) had a proprietary coating which turned the copper black and this coating is what made this bullet retain 100% of its energy and a high percentage of its shape upon impact, thus allowing it to penetrate protective surfaces such as kevlar vests. The Black Talon ammunition was only available to the public for a short time before being outlawed in 1994 if memory serves me correctly. Now this is not to say no current day ammunition cannot penetrate a police officer's kevlar vest. If a typical rifled used to hunt deer with is shot with a 75 grain or larger bullet at close distances (less than 50 yards) it will penetrate the vest simply because of the velocity in which the projectile is traveling and the mass it carries (velocity x mass = kinetic energy). Often times the bullet is traveling 1700 fps and greater.

    While I may not agree with someone's opinion I will respect that of them and in return I will not try to persuade someone to agree with my views. I am a gun enthusiast and have taken several firearms safety training courses and find shooting to be very cathartic as well. I do have a Georgia Firearms License which basically allows me to carry concealed but I choose not to. I don't go in places where I feel that I need to carry a firearm nor am I one to think I can be a hero. I personally do not see the need for a 30 round magazine in any pistol I own nor do I foresee that I should ever want something with such capacity. For one it would be too heavy to be practical. I do know quite a few people who shoot competition and hunt with the AR platform rifle that I mentioned in an earlier post. I do not own one nor do I have the hankering to own one.

    While I was in college a course I had to take was research methods. I had to write a report so I do so on a book by John Lott titled, "More Guns, Less Crime." His theory was (you'll never guess ) the more guns that are in the hands of law abiding citizens means less crime. It's been at least 10 years since I read the book but his numbers supported his theory. I don't put a lot of weight into studies such as Lott's nor the one referenced by Hilldweller as with politics the numbers can be easily skewed to support ones views.

  4. #2054
    Cyburbian jswanek's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by kjel View post
    As shell_waster noted licensed dealers have a process that they must adhere to when they sell firearms, the loophole of private party individual sales needs to be closed. Much like owning an automobile and when you sell it to some other person you sign the title over and the registration gets transferred. There should be a methodology in place for that type of transfer of firearms between individuals. All people who own a gun should have to go through some firearms safety course much like you have to pass a drivers license test.

    Although I have no issue with the 2nd Amendment and the right to bear arms (or not) there is no reason that anyone needs a high powered assault grade weapon unless you are on active military duty or employed as law enforcement. They are meant for hunting people. Period.
    .

    Again, that problem with adjectives. "High-powered" is meaningless. "Assault grade" is meaningless. When Congress was discussing the original assault weapons ban, they exempted the Ruger Mini-14 Ranch Rifle, commonly used, yes, on ranches. They then banned the SAME rifle with a folding stock. Ruger also makes a .22 semi-automatic rifle. Is that an assault rifle or a plinker? Well, it becomes an assault rifle the second you cut crosses into the tops of the bullets, so they fragment on impact. Are you going to ban any rifle that is not bolt-action? That would leave a lot of dead bear and stag hunters, if that's your plan.

    .

  5. #2055
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    I just went to Cabela's and a friend bought an Rugar AR 15 SR556 assult rifle, in a state other than where we live and it took 30 minutes to buy it. He has a Michigan CPL and had no problems.

    For him, it is a toy no different than a speed boat or a sports car.
    Invest in the things today, that provide the returns tomorrow.

  6. #2056
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    We ate at a Chick-fil-A just outside of Chicago and it was packed. I thought that there would be more of a protest here, but I guess non-political people are not worried about it.
    Invest in the things today, that provide the returns tomorrow.

  7. #2057
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    We ate at a Chick-fil-A just outside of Chicago and it was packed. I thought that there would be more of a protest here, but I guess non-political people are not worried about it.
    My guess is that most people haven't heard about the scandal or whatever you want to call it. Also- most people, political or not, probably don't care too much about the owners political or moral views. The recent trend of boycotting or supporting a business solely because of politics seems to be somewhat against what America stands for. A business should succeed or fail on the merits of the business, not an owners political views.
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

  8. #2058
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    I just went to Cabela's and a friend bought an Rugar AR 15 SR556 assult rifle, in a state other than where we live and it took 30 minutes to buy it. He has a Michigan CPL and had no problems.

    For him, it is a toy no different than a speed boat or a sports car.
    I like my freedom as much as the next person, but I am of the opinion that there should be at least a day or two wait. I don't like the idea of an angry person being able to buy an assault weapon and walk out the door with it before they calm down.
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

  9. #2059
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    I just went to Cabela's and a friend bought an Rugar AR 15 SR556 assult rifle, in a state other than where we live and it took 30 minutes to buy it. He has a Michigan CPL and had no problems.

    For him, it is a toy no different than a speed boat or a sports car.
    Which is exactly what is wrong with the system. If you think that an Assault rifle is a toy, then you shouldn't have it. I don't think you should ban them, but they should be HIGHLY regulated. So much so that most people wouldn't want to go through the "hassle" of having themselves be poked and proded. If you like to hunt bear and stag, as it seems jswanek thinks such guns are necessary, then you are going to plan ahead and get all the necessary permits through the state and fed. You are going to have to explain where and when you are hunting, and you are going to be given a certain number of rounds for your trip. You want to have a "toy" that serves no purpose but to trophy hunt a couple times a year, then you better expect that you are going to have to prove that is what you are doing.

    This argument that it is difficult to define a semi or automatic gun is ridiculous. Instead of worrying about the NRA crying about guns being taken out of the hands of citizens and the 2nd amendment blah blah, why don't we regulate based on use and put specific guns into categories. You want a handgun? Here's a list of acceptable models for the average citizen. You want to hunt? Here's a list of acceptable models for the hunter? You want to trophy hunt? Here's a list of acceptable guns for the trophy hunter. The regulation, training, permitting, and scrutiny goes up with each category.

    I am not against guns in general. I am against a system that makes guns easy to get, and does not do enough to keep them out of the hands of the average citizen who doesn't know what they are doing.
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  10. #2060
    Cyburbian Mud Princess's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner View post
    The recent trend of boycotting or supporting a business solely because of politics seems to be somewhat against what America stands for. A business should succeed or fail on the merits of the business, not an owners political views.
    You may want to brush up on your American history... see, for example, the Civil Rights era. And I'm not sure what you mean by "because of politics." I don't think Chick-Fil-A is being boycotted because of the owner's political affiliation.

  11. #2061
    Cyburbian ofos's avatar
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    I'm amused by how the slightest offense brings out the special interest groups in a presidential election year. It's all about seizing the opportunity for press coverage and not necessarily related to either political party. Of course, if they get some politician to jump in without thinking it out, all the better.
    “Death comes when memories of the past exceed the vision for the future.”

  12. #2062
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hink View post
    Which is exactly what is wrong with the system. If you think that an Assault rifle is a toy, then you shouldn't have it. I don't think you should ban them, but they should be HIGHLY regulated. So much so that most people wouldn't want to go through the "hassle" of having themselves be poked and proded. If you like to hunt bear and stag, as it seems jswanek thinks such guns are necessary, then you are going to plan ahead and get all the necessary permits through the state and fed. You are going to have to explain where and when you are hunting, and you are going to be given a certain number of rounds for your trip. You want to have a "toy" that serves no purpose but to trophy hunt a couple times a year, then you better expect that you are going to have to prove that is what you are doing.

    This argument that it is difficult to define a semi or automatic gun is ridiculous. Instead of worrying about the NRA crying about guns being taken out of the hands of citizens and the 2nd amendment blah blah, why don't we regulate based on use and put specific guns into categories. You want a handgun? Here's a list of acceptable models for the average citizen. You want to hunt? Here's a list of acceptable models for the hunter? You want to trophy hunt? Here's a list of acceptable guns for the trophy hunter. The regulation, training, permitting, and scrutiny goes up with each category.

    I am not against guns in general. I am against a system that makes guns easy to get, and does not do enough to keep them out of the hands of the average citizen who doesn't know what they are doing.
    I doubt he will ever shoot anything living with it. On our way back from a conference this weekend, I just asked him what he is going to do with it and he responded that it will be for target shooting. He already owns several other guns, has 40 acres of forest in the middle of the state, and goes target shooting several times a month as a hobby.

    I personally have no interest in buying an assault rifle but I think that if he wants one and has gone through CPL process, then good for him.
    Invest in the things today, that provide the returns tomorrow.

  13. #2063
    moderator in moderation Suburb Repairman's avatar
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    I'm amused by how obcessed some people are with Chick-Fil-A. I am not a Chick-Fil-A fan and the few times I've eaten there, I feel ripped off. Everything on the menu seems to cost about $1.00 more than it should (especially the nuggets) for what you actually get. I'm also not a fan of listening to crappy contemporary Christian music while I'm eating. One thing I do like is a good gimmick--they did a promo a while back that if you dressed like a cow, you got a free meal. I was all over that.

    I've been clear in the past that I don't like businesses dabbling on politics, particularly when that dabbling leads to financial support of a particular view (left or right). When I see that go on, I always think that those funds could have been going to support local food banks, other charities & the like. To the extent practicable, I give a business's political activity consideration when making decisions about where to shop. I also view local issues differently versus national/state politics.

    "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

    - Herman Göring at the Nuremburg trials (thoughts on democracy)

  14. #2064
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Suburb Repairman View post
    I've been clear in the past that I don't like businesses dabbling on politics, particularly when that dabbling leads to financial support of a particular view (left or right). When I see that go on, I always think that those funds could have been going to support local food banks, other charities & the like. To the extent practicable, I give a business's political activity consideration when making decisions about where to shop. I also view local issues differently versus national/state politics.

    I might be missing part of the Chick Fil A issue, but how is it dabbing in politics if it was responding to a protest saying that the follow the biblical definition of Marriage? If anything, the Mayor's of Chicago and Boston were making statements (implying false power on their part) regarding the personal religious beliefs of one person and how he chooses to run his business.

    I do however agree completely with your statement, which is applied to both the Republicans and the Democrats.
    Invest in the things today, that provide the returns tomorrow.

  15. #2065
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    The issue largely stems from the fact Chick-Fil-A gives money to organizations that actively oppose gay marriage. They're certainly free to do it but the CEO's comments really shed light on a practice that some people obviously don't appreciate.

  16. #2066
    Cyburbian ofos's avatar
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    The trouble with free speech is that everyone gets to do it. We've got to do something about that.
    “Death comes when memories of the past exceed the vision for the future.”

  17. #2067
    Cyburbian ursus's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by ofos View post
    The trouble with free speech is that everyone gets to do it. We've got to do something about that.
    You're absolutely right, and that's why as the Mayor of my office I have declared that free speech has no place here....not on the zoning trail, as it were. I do, however, plan to perform marriages for gay couples here at my desk until somebody stops me. I guess straight couples would be welcome too, as long as nobody talks.

    In all seriousness, people are entitled to their views, but it seems the prudent and smart thing for a business owner or anyone high up in any company to do is to keep their lips tight about politics. Hell, I do that and I'm a nobody by anybody's standards.
    "...I would never try to tick Hink off. He kinda intimidates me. He's quite butch, you know." - Maister

  18. #2068
    moderator in moderation Suburb Repairman's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    I might be missing part of the Chick Fil A issue, but how is it dabbing in politics if it was responding to a protest saying that the follow the biblical definition of Marriage? If anything, the Mayor's of Chicago and Boston were making statements (implying false power on their part) regarding the personal religious beliefs of one person and how he chooses to run his business.

    I do however agree completely with your statement, which is applied to both the Republicans and the Democrats.
    I am tremendously uncomfortable with the stances taken by the Boston & Chicago mayors and feel they were inappropriate. I might agree with their sentiment, but a city does not get to call the shots on this kind of thing (as long as they are not actually discriminating against patrons or in their employment practices if orientation happens to be a protected class in the particular state). Chick-Fil-A is allowed to make statements--it is when they start taking actions contrary to applicable local, state & Federal laws that folks like these mayors get to chime in. While I disagree with Chick-Fil-A, they have not violated the law.

    "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

    - Herman Göring at the Nuremburg trials (thoughts on democracy)

  19. #2069
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Mud Princess View post
    You may want to brush up on your American history... see, for example, the Civil Rights era. And I'm not sure what you mean by "because of politics." I don't think Chick-Fil-A is being boycotted because of the owner's political affiliation.
    If chick fil a was refusing to serve or hire homosexuals, then your comparison to the civil rights era would make sense. AFAIK the only issue is that the owner said he personally was against gay marriage. If people are boycotting chick fil a, it is because of the owners stance on what has become a political issue (unfortunately equal rights has become a political affiliation issue). People boycotted whole Foods because the owner was personally against universal health care. People boycotted JC Penny's and Target because their owners support gay marriage.
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

  20. #2070
    Cyburbian Mud Princess's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner View post
    If chick fil a was refusing to serve or hire homosexuals, then your comparison to the civil rights era would make sense. AFAIK the only issue is that the owner said he personally was against gay marriage. If people are boycotting chick fil a, it is because of the owners stance on what has become a political issue (unfortunately equal rights has become a political affiliation issue). People boycotted whole Foods because the owner was personally against universal health care. People boycotted JC Penny's and Target because their owners support gay marriage.
    You specifically stated said that the "recent trend" of boycotting or supporting a business because of politics is "against what America stands for." My point is that boycotts have occurred throughout American history, and for many different reasons. It is a free speech issue... how is that unAmerican? And while the owner is "personally" against gay marriage, the company also contributes to organizations that actively oppose same-sex marriage... so I will spend my money elsewhere. Not that I would eat at a Chick-Fil-A to begin with...

  21. #2071
    Cyburbian jswanek's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hink View post
    Which is exactly what is wrong with the system. If you think that an Assault rifle is a toy, then you shouldn't have it. I don't think you should ban them, but they should be HIGHLY regulated. So much so that most people wouldn't want to go through the "hassle" of having themselves be poked and proded. If you like to hunt bear and stag, as it seems jswanek thinks such guns are necessary, then you are going to plan ahead and get all the necessary permits through the state and fed. You are going to have to explain where and when you are hunting, and you are going to be given a certain number of rounds for your trip. You want to have a "toy" that serves no purpose but to trophy hunt a couple times a year, then you better expect that you are going to have to prove that is what you are doing.

    This argument that it is difficult to define a semi or automatic gun is ridiculous. Instead of worrying about the NRA crying about guns being taken out of the hands of citizens and the 2nd amendment blah blah, why don't we regulate based on use and put specific guns into categories. You want a handgun? Here's a list of acceptable models for the average citizen. You want to hunt? Here's a list of acceptable models for the hunter? You want to trophy hunt? Here's a list of acceptable guns for the trophy hunter. The regulation, training, permitting, and scrutiny goes up with each category.

    I am not against guns in general. I am against a system that makes guns easy to get, and does not do enough to keep them out of the hands of the average citizen who doesn't know what they are doing.
    Common sense would be allowing whatever the average citizen who WANTED a gun thought was necessary to defend their persons, homes, and the persons of their loved ones. Little consideration should be given to what those who DON'T want a gun think the rest should have. It would be silly to tell the average citizen they can from now on only defend their persons, homes, and the persons of their loved ones with single action revolvers, bolt-action rifles and spears. The average citizen deserves more than that, and the framers of our Constitution knew that on principle.

  22. #2072
    Cyburbian wahday's avatar
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    I think some of you are forgetting one of the central reasons for a boycott – to deny a company your business as a sign of protest. And it certainly can, and often is, for political reasons.

    A boycott is an act of voluntarily abstaining from using, buying, or dealing with a person, organization, or country as an expression of protest, usually for political reasons. It can be a form of consumer activism.
    The premise for the Chic-fil-A boycott is that a percentage of people’s money spent at the establishment goes to support a cause (opposition of gay marriage) that some may object to. So, not spending your money there means you are not supporting those causes. Its really that simple. And mostly symbolic. Its not necessarily about trying to put a company out of business or saying they can’t run their affairs how they want. Its about individual people saying they don’t want to personally contribute. If that equates (because enough people support that position) to a change in the company’s behavior, so be it. That would be, in my mind, another example of the Free Market at work! The Marketplace being not just straight up commerce, but also the marketplace of ideas, cultural values, and politics.

    Boycotting seems very much the domain of a free society that inspires civic discourse in the marketplace. Its messy, yes, but that’s democracy for you!
    The purpose of life is a life of purpose

  23. #2073
    Cyburbian ofos's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by wahday View post
    I think some of you are forgetting one of the central reasons for a boycott – to deny a company your business as a sign of protest. And it certainly can, and often is, for political reasons.



    The premise for the Chic-fil-A boycott is that a percentage of people’s money spent at the establishment goes to support a cause (opposition of gay marriage) that some may object to. So, not spending your money there means you are not supporting those causes. Its really that simple. And mostly symbolic. Its not necessarily about trying to put a company out of business or saying they can’t run their affairs how they want. Its about individual people saying they don’t want to personally contribute. If that equates (because enough people support that position) to a change in the company’s behavior, so be it. That would be, in my mind, another example of the Free Market at work! The Marketplace being not just straight up commerce, but also the marketplace of ideas, cultural values, and politics.

    Boycotting seems very much the domain of a free society that inspires civic discourse in the marketplace. Its messy, yes, but that’s democracy for you!
    Well said. I personally have no problems with boycotts of a business as long the freedom of others to access that business is not interfered with. In fact, I have not made a purchase at any Exxon stations since the Exxon Valdez disaster. I would also support those mayors IF they said that they would seek to ensure that their cities would not authorize purchase of any products or services from Chik-fil-a. Threatening to prevent the fair exercise of commerce is another matter. It's unfortunate that there is no true equivalent of boycott for government. Refusing to vote only takes power away from yourself and well, you know what the penalty for refusing to pay taxes is.
    “Death comes when memories of the past exceed the vision for the future.”

  24. #2074
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    If the business itself was donating money and actively lobbying for something political that would be one thing. But because the owner might be a republican or a democrat and may have donated to support gun control or to oppose gay marriage? That just is petty IMO. Let's try to bankrupt an American business because the owner happened to be quoted on some political issue and I disagree with him? Well personally I think that is idiotic. I have no interest in ever eating at a chick fil a but I also have no interest in ever caring about what the owner thinks about anything ever.

    Quote Originally posted by ofos
    I personally have no problems with boycotts of a business as long the freedom of others to access that business is not interfered with. In fact, I have not made a purchase at any Exxon stations since the Exxon Valdez disaster.
    Totally different situation IMO. The company istelf was responsible for terrible stuff. If chick fil a was refusing to serve gay people or throwing chicken burgers at the atendees of gay marriage ceremonies then they should be boycotted. But boycotting them for the personal views of the owner?
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

  25. #2075
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by jswanek View post
    Common sense would be allowing whatever the average citizen who WANTED a gun thought was necessary to defend their persons, homes, and the persons of their loved ones. Little consideration should be given to what those who DON'T want a gun think the rest should have. It would be silly to tell the average citizen they can from now on only defend their persons, homes, and the persons of their loved ones with single action revolvers, bolt-action rifles and spears. The average citizen deserves more than that, and the framers of our Constitution knew that on principle.
    Yes, the framers of the constitution knew EXACTLY what the world would be like today, and knew that on principle we deserve Assault weapons. Man you got me....

    Using the framers argument is really weak. Especially in gun control conversations. The framers were working with a slightly different world where there were slightly different weaponry and circumstances for necessity of protection. I really don't understand the need for a militia or citizens with weapons. We have an army. If you think the world is ending and you have a right to protect yourself against our government, then please enjoy your canned beans in your shelter and wait for the apocalypse, but most of us will continue on in our lives.

    Common sense (and scientific proof) would say, if you want less gun deaths.... have less guns. If less guns isn't an option (since we are so enamored with this right), then the next best option would be HIGHLY regulated guns. Unless of course you don't want less gun deaths, or would rather protect your right to have automatic weaponry then try and lower gun deaths. Then we aren't even arguing in the same court room.
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

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