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Thread: The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

  1. #2076
    Cyburbian ursus's avatar
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    Am I wrong to find it funny that right now at the top of my page is a google ad for.....Chik-Fil-A? Free coupons anybody?
    "...I would never try to tick Hink off. He kinda intimidates me. He's quite butch, you know." - Maister

  2. #2077
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by jswanek View post
    Common sense would be allowing whatever the average citizen who WANTED a gun thought was necessary to defend their persons, homes, and the persons of their loved ones. Little consideration should be given to what those who DON'T want a gun think the rest should have. It would be silly to tell the average citizen they can from now on only defend their persons, homes, and the persons of their loved ones with single action revolvers, bolt-action rifles and spears. The average citizen deserves more than that, and the framers of our Constitution knew that on principle.
    I support the right to have weapons, but I am undecided about assault weapons. I tend to think an automatic weapons with the ability to shoot 100 rounds in a minute or less is of no need to anyone outside the military.

    In your opinion, where does this right to bear arms stop? Should I be able to buy a nuclear weapon? How about a missle launcher? Sarin gas? Over ther weekend Supreme Court Justice Scalia said he thinks people may have the right to own and operate rocket-launchers.
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

  3. #2078
    Cyburbian jswanek's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hink View post
    Yes, the framers of the constitution knew EXACTLY what the world would be like today, and knew that on principle we deserve Assault weapons. Man you got me....

    Using the framers argument is really weak. Especially in gun control conversations. The framers were working with a slightly different world where there were slightly different weaponry and circumstances for necessity of protection. I really don't understand the need for a militia or citizens with weapons. We have an army. If you think the world is ending and you have a right to protect yourself against our government, then please enjoy your canned beans in your shelter and wait for the apocalypse, but most of us will continue on in our lives.

    Common sense (and scientific proof) would say, if you want less gun deaths.... have less guns. If less guns isn't an option (since we are so enamored with this right), then the next best option would be HIGHLY regulated guns. Unless of course you don't want less gun deaths, or would rather protect your right to have automatic weaponry then try and lower gun deaths. Then we aren't even arguing in the same court room.
    Uh, the framers of the Constitution knew that American citizens would need to have weapons comparable to those of the British army. That's seems kinda obvious. They didn't limit themselves to blunderbusses. Man you got ME if you can't see that....

    As for "circumstances for necessity of protection", you must be kidding if you feel the police (or the army?) will save your family from a home invader.

    You have every right to NOT defend yourself with deadly force if necessary, just don't get in the way of someone who is trying to do exactly that. If you think everything is hunky-dory and you don't wish to ever have the right to protect yourself against your government, then please enjoy your canned fava beans in your place and wait for them to show up; the rest of us will continue on with our lives.

    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner View post
    I support the right to have weapons, but I am undecided about assault weapons. I tend to think an automatic weapons with the ability to shoot 100 rounds in a minute or less is of no need to anyone outside the military.

    In your opinion, where does this right to bear arms stop? Should I be able to buy a nuclear weapon? How about a missle launcher? Sarin gas? Over ther weekend Supreme Court Justice Scalia said he thinks people may have the right to own and operate rocket-launchers.
    If you'd go out and shop, you'd probably find that a Ruger Ranch Rifle, which was NEVER considered an assault weapon, looked just about right.

  4. #2079
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by jswanek View post
    Uh, the framers of the Constitution knew that American citizens would need to have weapons comparable to those of the British army. That's seems kinda obvious. .
    Actually, that is why they specifically wrote about the right for a well regulated militia. At the time, there was no standing army. In fact, many of the framers talked about trying to write it into the constitution that America could never have a standing army.


    Quote Originally posted by jswanek View post
    If you'd go out and shop, you'd probably find that a Ruger Ranch Rifle, which was NEVER considered an assault weapon, looked just about right.
    So anything more excessive than a Ruger Ranch Rifle you want to prohibit people from owning? You support more excessive gun control than I do.
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

  5. #2080
    Cyburbian jswanek's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner View post
    Actually, that is why they specifically wrote about the right for a well regulated militia. At the time, there was no standing army. In fact, many of the framers talked about trying to write it into the constitution that America could never have a standing army.

    So anything more excessive than a Ruger Ranch Rifle you want to prohibit people from owning? You support more excessive gun control than I do.
    I feel that so few are capable of effectively handling more than that it's almost suicide, so yes that's my limit...and forget about drums, they jam anyway. Stick to clips.

  6. #2081
    Cyburbian ofos's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner View post
    Totally different situation IMO. The company istelf was responsible for terrible stuff. If chick fil a was refusing to serve gay people or throwing chicken burgers at the atendees of gay marriage ceremonies then they should be boycotted. But boycotting them for the personal views of the owner?
    Of course it was totally different, I was only trying to make the point that I believe that a boycott is a valid way to protest. I don't believe that boycotting Chik-fil-a for the founder's opinions serves much purpose in advancing the same sex marriage cause, but for those who do, do what you feel is appropriate.
    “Death comes when memories of the past exceed the vision for the future.”

  7. #2082
    Cyburbian Plus Whose Yur Planner's avatar
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    Never mind-this is an asinine, tail chasing thread on a topic we've ground into mush before.
    When did I go from Luke Skywalker to Obi-Wan Kenobi?

  8. #2083
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    I support gay marriage, and I support Chik-Fil-A.

    If I choose not to go to Chik-Fil-A, it will be because they are slightly overpriced.
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  9. #2084
    Cyburbian
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    Quote Originally posted by Hink View post
    why don't we regulate based on use and put specific guns into categories. You want a handgun? Here's a list of acceptable models for the average citizen. You want to hunt? Here's a list of acceptable models for the hunter? You want to trophy hunt? Here's a list of acceptable guns for the trophy hunter. The regulation, training, permitting, and scrutiny goes up with each category.

    I am not against guns in general. I am against a system that makes guns easy to get, and does not do enough to keep them out of the hands of the average citizen who doesn't know what they are doing.
    The same can be said about clothes, toilet paper, cars, and anything that we have multiple choices of buying. It's called freedom of personal choice. I am an avid shooter and I didn't know how to safely operate a firearm until I was taught but I was responsible enough to know I didn't know what to do so I attend training courses. I do think that anyone purchasing a firearm prove they have attended and passed a safety course. I had to pass a driver's test to obtain my driver's license and I had to attend and pass a hunter's safety course in order to purchase my hunting license. In my opinion the key is to have a national standard course and testing material for a reasonable cost (<$100?). Now I agree, many in the US are not properly taught nor are they responsible enough to own a firearm but they procreate and allowed to vote.

  10. #2085
    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    If one subscribes to the argument that 2nd Amendment rights are critical so that citizens have the ability to defend themselves from the government, shouldn't we be doing more to ensure that 'cop killer' bullets (capable of penetrating kevlar vests) are more widely available to patriotic citizens so that they can more effectively kill law enforcement officers who attempt to enforce unconstitutional laws?
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

  11. #2086
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Maister View post
    If one subscribes to the argument that 2nd Amendment rights are critical so that citizens have the ability to defend themselves from the government, shouldn't we be doing more to ensure that 'cop killer' bullets (capable of penetrating kevlar vests) are more widely available to patriotic citizens so that they can more effectively kill law enforcement officers who attempt to enforce unconstitutional laws?
    No. A person should not buy a gun with the intent to kill a person, unless it is a life or death situation.
    "I learned many great lessons from my father, not the least of which, was that you can fail at what you don't want, so you might as well take a chance on doing what you love." - Jim Carrey

  12. #2087
    Cyburbian ofos's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Maister View post
    If one subscribes to the argument that 2nd Amendment rights are critical so that citizens have the ability to defend themselves from the government, shouldn't we be doing more to ensure that 'cop killer' bullets (capable of penetrating kevlar vests) are more widely available to patriotic citizens so that they can more effectively kill law enforcement officers who attempt to enforce unconstitutional laws?
    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    No. A person should not buy a gun with the intent to kill a person, unless it is a life or death situation.
    Bazinga!
    “Death comes when memories of the past exceed the vision for the future.”

  13. #2088
    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    No. A person should not buy a gun with the intent to kill a person, unless it is a life or death situation.
    So are you saying that if there's a midnight knock on the door in the year 2025 and the cops have come to round up your family (stating no explicit desire to kill them) you wouldn't use deadly force to resist?

    Off-topic:
    okay okay enough base entertainment for one day! WYP is right, this is right up there with abortion and the existence of God in the tail chasing department
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

  14. #2089
    Cyburbian Brocktoon's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Maister View post
    Off-topic:
    okay okay enough base entertainment for one day! WYP is right, this is right up there with abortion and the existence of God in the tail chasing department
    Some of us are enjoying watching the carnage from a far...like the spectators that showed up for battles during the Civic War.
    "If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even less" General Eric Shinseki

  15. #2090
    Cyburbian ColoGI's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Maister View post
    If one subscribes to the argument that 2nd Amendment rights are critical so that citizens have the ability to defend themselves from the government, shouldn't we be doing more to ensure that 'cop killer' bullets (capable of penetrating kevlar vests) are more widely available to patriotic citizens so that they can more effectively kill law enforcement officers who attempt to enforce unconstitutional laws?
    I fail to see how the average citizen stands any chance against the biggest military regime ever in the history of the world. Even an assault rifle with a 100-round drum and a macho, p&nis-enlarging thousand-round arsenal bought on the Internet as easily as a Beastie Boys song won't do jack against a drone. Or an armored humvee crashing through your front door. Or an F-16 swooshing overhead, dropping a laser-guided missile.

    It is absurd to use such weak argumentation in this day and age.

    This is not to say we should do nothing about every city's police force having a SWAT team and electronic surveillance and arresting people for filming their thuggery.
    -------
    Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.

  16. #2091
    Cyburbian jswanek's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by ColoGI View post
    I fail to see how the average citizen stands any chance against the biggest military regime ever in the history of the world. Even an assault rifle with a 100-round drum and a macho, p&nis-enlarging thousand-round arsenal bought on the Internet as easily as a Beastie Boys song won't do jack against a drone. Or an armored humvee crashing through your front door. Or an F-16 swooshing overhead, dropping a laser-guided missile.

    It is absurd to use such weak argumentation in this day and age.

    This is not to say we should do nothing about every city's police force having a SWAT team and electronic surveillance and arresting people for filming their thuggery.
    To suffer woes which Hope thinks infinite;
    To forgive wrongs darker than death or night;
    To defy Power, which seems omnipotent;
    To love, and bear; to hope till Hope creates
    From its own wreck the thing it contemplates;
    Neither to change, nor falter, nor repent;
    This, like thy glory, Titan, is to be
    Good, great and joyous, beautiful and free;
    This is alone Life, Joy, Empire, and Victory.

  17. #2092
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by jswanek View post
    To suffer woes which Hope thinks infinite;
    To forgive wrongs darker than death or night;
    To defy Power, which seems omnipotent;
    To love, and bear; to hope till Hope creates
    From its own wreck the thing it contemplates;
    Neither to change, nor falter, nor repent;
    This, like thy glory, Titan, is to be
    Good, great and joyous, beautiful and free;
    This is alone Life, Joy, Empire, and Victory.
    I just threw up in my mouth a little.

    Quoting Promethus Unbound? Really?

    Do you have any other masteful pieces of literary art for us?
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  18. #2093
    Cyburbian Plus
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    Quote Originally posted by ColoGI View post
    I fail to see how the average citizen stands any chance against the biggest military regime ever in the history of the world. Even an assault rifle with a 100-round drum and a macho, p&nis-enlarging thousand-round arsenal bought on the Internet as easily as a Beastie Boys song won't do jack against a drone. Or an armored humvee crashing through your front door. Or an F-16 swooshing overhead, dropping a laser-guided missile.

    It is absurd to use such weak argumentation in this day and age.

    This is not to say we should do nothing about every city's police force having a SWAT team and electronic surveillance and arresting people for filming their thuggery.
    Not throwing my support either way in this argument. BUT...

    It seems like rag-tag groups armed with cheap crappy weapons and homemade explosives have been a serious pest for our military the past 10-11 years. So it isn't beyond reason that average citizens could put up an equal or greater struggle.

  19. #2094
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by ddomin4360 View post
    Not throwing my support either way in this argument. BUT...

    It seems like rag-tag groups armed with cheap crappy weapons and homemade explosives have been a serious pest for our military the past 10-11 years. So it isn't beyond reason that average citizens could put up an equal or greater struggle.
    But we've also never thrown the full weight of our miliatary against any of these groups. Only little surges here, and surges there. A drone strike year, a little boming there.

    If it wanted to, our military could lay waste to most countries on this planet. And I'm not saying that proudly.
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  20. #2095
    Cyburbian jswanek's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    But we've also never thrown the full weight of our miliatary against any of these groups. Only little surges here, and surges there. A drone strike year, a little boming there.

    If it wanted to, our military could lay waste to most countries on this planet. And I'm not saying that proudly.
    One of my in-laws has relevant experience, training Afghans to fight terrorism. Any Army that attacks women and children surrounding their fighting men ultimately loses that war. They find that their individual soldiers on leave are being killed by local girls, poisoned by bartenders, etc. So, they hunker down in bases, give up the outlying areas, and soon find that they no longer control the territory. The people begin laughing at them for not being willing to go one-on-one, or come out of their hidey-holes. They end up withdrawing.

  21. #2096
    Cyburbian ColoGI's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by ddomin4360 View post
    Not throwing my support either way in this argument. BUT...

    It seems like rag-tag groups armed with cheap crappy weapons and homemade explosives have been a serious pest for our military the past 10-11 years. So it isn't beyond reason that average citizens could put up an equal or greater struggle.
    We didn't learn from history that no one who goes into Afghanistan wins.
    -------
    Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.

  22. #2097
    Cyburbian ColoGI's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by jswanek View post
    To suffer woes which Hope thinks infinite;
    To forgive wrongs darker than death or night;
    To defy Power, which seems omnipotent;
    To love, and bear; to hope till Hope creates
    From its own wreck the thing it contemplates;
    Neither to change, nor falter, nor repent;
    This, like thy glory, Titan, is to be
    Good, great and joyous, beautiful and free;
    This is alone Life, Joy, Empire, and Victory.
    Is this Internet Performance Art? Or do you think you know what this work is supposed to mean from these lines (and did you copy it from the NRA website or some place similar because they told you it meant X?)
    -------
    Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.

  23. #2098
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    Quote Originally posted by ColoGI View post
    We didn't learn from history that no one who goes into Afghanistan wins.
    Well, its not like Iraq was a cake walk either. The Iraqi military was beaten super quick but the insurgents were a problem on a real level right up until we left.


    Then we can look back at Vietnam where we were on a more aggressive offensive than in Iraq or Afghanistan and after dealing with their BS for ~10 years we left an unwinnable war. Guerilla warfare is hard to deal with for modern armies that follow rules of combat.

  24. #2099
    Cyburbian jswanek's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by ColoGI View post
    Is this Internet Performance Art? Or do you think you know what this work is supposed to mean from these lines (and did you copy it from the NRA website or some place similar because they told you it meant X?)
    Milton said it as well.

  25. #2100
    Cyburbian ColoGI's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by ddomin4360 View post
    Well, its not like Iraq was a cake walk either. The Iraqi military was beaten super quick but the insurgents were a problem on a real level right up until we left.


    Then we can look back at Vietnam where we were on a more aggressive offensive than in Iraq or Afghanistan and after dealing with their BS for ~10 years we left an unwinnable war. Guerilla warfare is hard to deal with for modern armies that follow rules of combat.
    You are talking about the problems of occupation, which the Brits found in the 1700s here as well, as did the Romans, the Austro-Hungarian empire, etc. History explains to us why conquering armies have difficulty keeping the peace and it takes much more than the gun and sword.
    -------
    Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.

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