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Thread: The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

  1. #2301
    Cyburbian otterpop's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    30 states petition federal government to secede after election

    I am fascinated that it is a combination of both red states and blue states. I wonder if we will get to a point where secession from the US happens, or if the US will just break up into 5 or 6 parts.
    They wanna secede? OK. But before any state does, we expect that state to pay the United States the going rate for the federal lands within the state. Wouldn't hurt Texas much, but Nevada has huge tracts of OUR land. And say good bye to the federal subsidies, money for air and army bases (which are also OURS). And without our army, navy and air force, Mexico might be taking back Texas and California. And don't be sneaking over the border to visit your relatives in the good ole USA. We will deal harshly with illegal immigrants.

    Sour grapes. Boo hoo. The majority of the nation didn't vote for your candidate, so you want to take your ball and go home. Well, much of that ball is still OURS. So quit your whining. If we could take eight years of Dubya, surely you can take four more of Obama.
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  2. #2302
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    What if it does happen. Do you think that particular states would group together or do you think we will have the US, with several independent nations among the remaining 20? Or do you think it would be a total collapse of the US? I also think that 40,000 signatures in TX is enough to get people's attention.

    Why do you think that all these states want to leave the union? Interestingly enough, many historians say that the Civil war was about states rights as much as about slavery. Here is an interesting article on it. I don't agree with this 100% but there is quite a bit of truth to what he says.
    States would try to group together, just like the Confederacy. And then the Civil War happened. A Civil War would happen again, with disastrous consequences.

    Do the States that want to secede really want to go through Reconstruction again?

    Washington D.C. will never allow a State to secede. Just like it was never an option with Lincoln and the Republicans. It was seen as a rebellion, not a secession.
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  3. #2303
    moderator in moderation Suburb Repairman's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    30 states petition federal government to secede after election

    I am fascinated that it is a combination of both red states and blue states. I wonder if we will get to a point where secession from the US happens, or if the US will just break up into 5 or 6 parts.
    I'm so used to stupid secession talk in Texas that it is like white noise to me. No one is seceding. Even Perry has been saying that such talk is foolish (and he's the jackass that started the latest round of it).

    "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

    - Herman Göring at the Nuremburg trials (thoughts on democracy)

  4. #2304
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by otterpop View post
    They wanna secede? OK. But before any state does, we expect that state to pay the United States the going rate for the federal lands within the state. Wouldn't hurt Texas much, but Nevada has huge tracts of OUR land. And say good bye to the federal subsidies, money for air and army bases (which are also OURS). And without our army, navy and air force, Mexico might be taking back Texas and California. And don't be sneaking over the border to visit your relatives in the good ole USA. We will deal harshly with illegal immigrants.

    Sour grapes. Boo hoo. The majority of the nation didn't vote for your candidate, so you want to take your ball and go home. Well, much of that ball is still OURS. So quit your whining. If we could take eight years of Dubya, surely you can take four more of Obama.
    Otterpop, maybe you should go back and read post number #2295 in this tread before you say I am whining.
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

  5. #2305
    Corn Burning Fool giff57's avatar
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    I wonder if any of the petition signers are on Social Security or Medicare? Do you suppose any of them like the idea of those payments stopping.
    “As soon as public service ceases to be the chief business of the citizens, and they would rather serve with their money than with their persons, the State is not far from its fall”
    Jean-Jacques Rousseau

  6. #2306
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by giff57 View post
    I wonder if any of the petition signers are on Social Security or Medicare? Do you suppose any of them like the idea of those payments stopping.
    That is a good question. Something tells me that they wouldn't bite the hand that feeds them though. (Just using the phrase and not comparing those on assistance to dogs. Don't want to get anyone all worked up in here....)
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

  7. #2307
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    Ohio has only about 100 signatures. These people are all morons. If you sign a petition to secede you are a moron. I am sorry to be so blunt, but if you don't understand that this is the greatest country in the world, and want to leave it because you didn't get your guy in office, cry me a river. Take your participation award and go home. Geez people. Grow up. Our democratic process does not give you the right to be a winner all the time. Next election try to be more inclusive and you might win?
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  8. #2308
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    The funny thing is most of those states wanting to succeed are the ones getting more in federal spending than they pay in taxes. http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...ng-charts-maps

    It's funny, and I'm sure these clowns don't get the irony of claiming they are the "true patriots" while wanting to leave America everytime they don't get their way. But listening to some right wing talk radio this morning, let's not make any mistake about what this is really about. This is primarily about racism. Caller after caller is yelling about how they no longer want to be part of the country if American elections will no longer be decided by white Americans, who they refer to as the "real americans" and instead by the lazy unproductive minorities. It's not even a dog whistle or thinly vieled racism. It's blatent and outright complaining that minorities are a lesser class of people than whites. I wish they would follow through with their whiney threats and leave the country. Bunch of racist no-nothing bozos.

    Quote Originally posted by Tide
    After financial collapse of the country I can see the interest at its highest. Why should prosperous states (Georgia) "carry" certain states (California, as examples) will be the rationale. Will succession succeed, I don't know
    .

    nobody is carrying Cali. California is by far the most economically productive state in the union. Our GDP greatly exceeds any other state. Our problem is simply that we get back so much less in federal spending than we pay. We are carrying the burden of the loser states.
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  9. #2309
    Cyburbian otterpop's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    Otterpop, maybe you should go back and read post number #2295 in this tread before you say I am whining.
    When I used "you", I was not referring to you personally. If I offended you, then I apologize because it was not my intent to call you a whiner. Because I used your post as a quote to comment on the whole it secession discussion, I understand how you (and I am referring to you this time) could conclude that I was attacking you. Once again, I meant no offense and am sorry I did not word my comments more succinctly.

    I meant "you" as in those people who are exhibiting this knee-jerk. let's throw the baby out with the bathwater response to getting beat fair and square in an election.
    "I am very good at reading women, but I get into trouble for using the Braille method."

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  10. #2310
    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    [snip]Why do you think that all these states want to leave the union?
    Um, I don't think "all these states want to leave the union". I think 0.01% of the population signed a petition because they were feeling churlish that day.
    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis
    Interestingly enough, many historians say that the Civil war was about states rights as much as about slavery. Here is an interesting article on it. I don't agree with this 100% but there is quite a bit of truth to what he says.
    What parts of the article specifically do you disagree with?
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

  11. #2311
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by otterpop View post
    When I used "you", I was not referring to you personally. If I offended you, then I apologize because it was not my intent to call you a whiner. Because I used your post as a quote to comment on the whole it secession discussion, I understand how you (and I am referring to you this time) could conclude that I was attacking you. Once again, I meant no offense and am sorry I did not word my comments more succinctly.

    I meant "you" as in those people who are exhibiting this knee-jerk. let's throw the baby out with the bathwater response to getting beat fair and square in an election.
    I was wondering about that and the only reason I thought it might be directed at me was because my post was quoted. I agree with your post though. People do need to quit whining and get over the fact that Obama won. I did not vote for him and I do not like his policies, but he did win. It is time for people to move on, come together and get things done.
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

  12. #2312
    Cyburbian wahday's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner View post
    It's funny, and I'm sure these clowns don't get the irony of claiming they are the "true patriots" while wanting to leave America everytime they don't get their way. But listening to some right wing talk radio this morning, let's not make any mistake about what this is really about. This is primarily about racism. Caller after caller is yelling about how they no longer want to be part of the country if American elections will no longer be decided by white Americans, who they refer to as the "real americans" and instead by the lazy unproductive minorities. It's not even a dog whistle or thinly vieled racism. It's blatent and outright complaining that minorities are a lesser class of people than whites. I wish they would follow through with their whiney threats and leave the country. Bunch of racist no-nothing bozos
    The latest narrative about why Romney lost that seems to be gaining some traction derives from the 47 percent comment. I heard Anne Coulter say that "the takers now outnumber the makers" as well as some other ridiculous comments about "traditional Americans." That seems to be something people are glomming onto. That the only reasonable explanation for the election's outcome is that people who suck at the teat of government voted in record numbers to make sure they can still get their benefits. Pulease. That does not even merit a response its so absurd.

    The whole secessionist meme is interesting, too and I note that after Bush was re-elected (and at other times in recent history) many progressives threatened to move to Canada. I think its interesting the difference in reaction - one says I want my state to secede, the other says I'm leaving altogether. Frankly, leaving the country sounds a whole lot easier than seceding, but what do I know? But really, secession has got to be one of the more ridiculous propositions I can imagine. As others have aptly said, IF it were even possible, the lack of a financial base, trade relations, defense, currency, jobs, etc. would render it a total and utter disaster. C'mon, people, we're all Americans. Can't we actually have constructive dialogues to tackle our problems? Or does pouting feel better? I was terrified by the prospect of a Romney victory, but I also wasn't planning to leave the country or secede over it. Its still my country and I have a role to play regardless of who the president is. And I realize that not everyone shares my opinion, so I live with it and feel proud that we can even have such discussions and disagreements.

    Meanwhile Puerto Rico voted to JOIN the union...

    Lastly, something I have wanted to say for a while is that in all this talk about immigration reform (in which we clearly seem to be talking about Mexicans) people seem to forget that over the summer, immigration from Asia eclipsed immigration from Latin America. So, when people talk about "those people" coming into this country in record numbers and changing everything, are they really thinking about folks from Asia, or is it all Mexican all the time?

    Oh, and 5 points to Maister for using "churlish" correctly in a sentence!
    The purpose of life is a life of purpose

  13. #2313
    Cyburbian terraplnr's avatar
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    I was thinking about a related topic the other day… after George W. Bush was re-elected, it kinda made sense for Democrats to threaten to / joke about moving to Canada or Europe, where there are some socialist or progressive policies that would align with some Democratic stances/beliefs. But what countries could upset Republicans move to after this election, that would be both fiscally conservative and conservative Christian? There are some conservative South American countries but I think they’re more Catholic than other Christian denominations.

  14. #2314
    Cyburbian Linda_D's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by wahday View post
    Lastly, something I have wanted to say for a while is that in all this talk about immigration reform (in which we clearly seem to be talking about Mexicans) people seem to forget that over the summer, immigration from Asia eclipsed immigration from Latin America. So, when people talk about "those people" coming into this country in record numbers and changing everything, are they really thinking about folks from Asia, or is it all Mexican all the time?
    Still bad news for the Republicans, though. Obama won 72% of the Asian vote and only 71% of the Latino vote.

    As for it "all Mexican all the time", ever wonder why nobody ever worries about illegal immigration from Canada or from Ireland when both of those countries contribute to the illegal population, especially the Canadians?
    If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. -- John F. Kennedy, January 20, 1961

  15. #2315
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by terraplnr View post
    I was thinking about a related topic the other day… after George W. Bush was re-elected, it kinda made sense for Democrats to threaten to / joke about moving to Canada or Europe, where there are some socialist or progressive policies that would align with some Democratic stances/beliefs. But what countries could upset Republicans move to after this election, that would be both fiscally conservative and conservative Christian? There are some conservative South American countries but I think they’re more Catholic than other Christian denominations.
    I think it stems from this bubble that some people immerse themselves in. They are being told that Obama and current America is a socialist disaster. It fascinates me that people are talking about moving to Germany, Canada and the UK because of Obamacare and a potential top marginal tax rate of about 39%. Every single one of those countries has a much higher top marginal tax rate and a truly socialist health care system. Outside of the right-wing bubble, the reality is that America's left is so much more conservative than any of those countries, and even than most of those countries conservative parties. The right-wing bubble news entertainment cabal is doing their followers a huge disservice by mininforming them on so many topics.
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  16. #2316
    Cyburbian hilldweller's avatar
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    Mitt Romney is just unbelievable. What a sore loser.
    http://www.boston.com/politicalintel...HvI/story.html

  17. #2317
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by hilldweller View post
    Mitt Romney is just unbelievable. What a sore loser.
    http://www.boston.com/politicalintel...HvI/story.html
    More proof that he really does see the country as an us vs. them scenario and that he meant exactly what he said about the 47%.
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  18. #2318
    Cyburbian otterpop's avatar
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    Now the news is full of stories about CEOs who are threatening to lay off people and cut the hours of workers because they will be required to provide health care under "Obamacare." So the CEOs of Papa Johns, Applebees and Jimmy Johns have their tighty-whities in a bunch. Health care for our workers? What will they demand next - a living wage? Safer working conditions?

    Food service is a dnagerous line of work. I worked fast food. Nearly cut off the tip of my finger on the job and had a hell of a time getting my worker's comp. I did get to keep the tip of my finger, though, so I guess I should be grateful for that.

    It is a shame. I really like those Jimmy John sandwiches. Didn't know the head honcho was such a dips**t.
    "I am very good at reading women, but I get into trouble for using the Braille method."

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  19. #2319
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    That Papa Johns guy ticked me off. Instead of raising the price of a pizza 14 cents, he'd rather cut his employees' hours.

  20. #2320
    Forums Administrator & Gallery Moderator NHPlanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Blide View post
    That Papa Johns guy ticked me off. Instead of raising the price of a pizza 14 cents, he'd rather cut his employees' hours.
    Or he could simply not "give away" 2 million free pizzas during football season. Figure at $10 a pizza, there's $20 million right there.

    (stolen from John Stewart... http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/11/1...-single-payer/)
    "Growth is inevitable and desirable, but destruction of community character is not. The question is not whether your part of the world is going to change. The question is how." -- Edward T. McMahon, The Conservation Fund

  21. #2321
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by NHPlanner View post
    Or he could simply not "give away" 2 million free pizzas during football season. Figure at $10 a pizza, there's $20 million right there.

    (stolen from John Stewart... http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/11/1...-single-payer/)
    But that is the kicker. There are millions of ways for CEOs to deal with rough patches. They could maybe make a lower profit margin for a bit, or not pay themselves $25 million for that year.... but instead they take the easy and politically stupid excuse of "having" to fire employees who make little to nothing compared to them.

    It is a ploy to scare people into believing a false sense of urgency. It didn't work in this election. If the GOP doesn't stop trying to make this an election about makers and takers, they are going to have a long road ahead.
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  22. #2322
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by NHPlanner View post
    Or he could simply not "give away" 2 million free pizzas during football season. Figure at $10 a pizza, there's $20 million right there.

    (stolen from John Stewart... http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/11/1...-single-payer/)
    There are plenty of well run businesses that have no issues with Obama or Obamacare. I have a strong sense that the ones complaining about everything are not only not well run, but would be close to failing regardless of who is our president. The Applebee's guy is a particular joke. He's refusing to hire people because Obama was re-elected? Let's see how well that works out for him. His business is hurting? Maybe because his business model is outdated.

    The Papa Johns guy is a huge joke. Obama has been so bad for his business that he went from paying himself 600k a year in 2008 to nearly 3 million a year in 2011.

    http://insiders.morningstar.com/trad...&culture=en_US
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  23. #2323
    Cyburbian Plus Whose Yur Planner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by hilldweller View post
    Mitt Romney is just unbelievable. What a sore loser.
    http://www.boston.com/politicalintel...HvI/story.html
    Did anyone beside me think of that scene in Fight Club when they saw this. I thought what Ryan said was pretty classy. Basically, Obama ran a good campaign and we lost.
    When did I go from Luke Skywalker to Obi-Wan Kenobi?

  24. #2324
    Cyburbian Linda_D's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by otterpop View post
    Now the news is full of stories about CEOs who are threatening to lay off people and cut the hours of workers because they will be required to provide health care under "Obamacare." So the CEOs of Papa Johns, Applebees and Jimmy Johns have their tighty-whities in a bunch. Health care for our workers? What will they demand next - a living wage? Safer working conditions?

    Food service is a dnagerous line of work. I worked fast food. Nearly cut off the tip of my finger on the job and had a hell of a time getting my worker's comp. I did get to keep the tip of my finger, though, so I guess I should be grateful for that.

    It is a shame. I really like those Jimmy John sandwiches. Didn't know the head honcho was such a dips**t.
    Well, the list of chain restaurants that I patronize just shrank. Not that Papa John's is any good. I can get better pizza in the local Tops Supermarket "hot bar" not to mention any of the local pizzarias, bars or bowling alleys.
    If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. -- John F. Kennedy, January 20, 1961

  25. #2325
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    I know people are not going to agree with me, but I say hey, it's there businesses. You don't have to eat there or shop there if you don't like how they do business.

    Personally, I agree with their principle on it. McDonald's and most fast food places does the exact same thing every time the minimum wage goes up. They either lay off people or jack their prices up.
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

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