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Thread: The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

  1. #2401
    Cyburbian Linda_D's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by dw914er View post
    I think they forgot that huge cuts will stifle growth. Spending money supports growth, regardless of who is doing it. I just hope that this process gives an honest look to what programs should be cut and which ones should remain. The idea of slash slash slash is simply too short sighted, but some things should be trimmed.
    Teapartiers don't understand economics at all. They are also self-absorbed in that they only see how much taxes affect them, NOT what taxes are spent on like roads, law enforcement, fire protection, schools, etc.
    If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. -- John F. Kennedy, January 20, 1961

  2. #2402
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    What is your prediction of the Fiscal Cliff? Will we go off it? If so what will really happen? Do you think an agreement will be made and if so, what do you think it will look like?
    This is a good explanation of the fiscal cliff

    http://www.thewrap.com/tv/column-pos...cy-video-67906
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

  3. #2403
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner View post
    This is a good explanation of the fiscal cliff

    http://www.thewrap.com/tv/column-pos...cy-video-67906
    That is funny.

    I found that my taxes will go up anywhere for $1000 to $2000 per month depending on what deductions they eliminate.

    I also found this LINK that provides a good overview.
    Invest in the things today, that provide the returns tomorrow.

  4. #2404
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Wow... it is a political hot potato here. Unions are trying to bash in the door to the capital building because the state is in the process of approving Right to Work regulations and protests in the City because the city voters approved a bill to classify possession of marijuana as a misdemeanor, but the county prosecutor is suing the City saying that it is a state law, not a city law. Oh, not to mention it is a felony at the federal level, which apparently supersedes everything.

    It is days like this that make me happy that I switch from pre-law to planning.
    Invest in the things today, that provide the returns tomorrow.

  5. #2405
    moderator in moderation Suburb Repairman's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    Wow... it is a political hot potato here. Unions are trying to bash in the door to the capital building because the state is in the process of approving Right to Work regulations and protests in the City because the city voters approved a bill to classify possession of marijuana as a misdemeanor, but the county prosecutor is suing the City saying that it is a state law, not a city law. Oh, not to mention it is a felony at the federal level, which apparently supersedes everything.

    It is days like this that make me happy that I switch from pre-law to planning.
    been watching that a bit out of the corner of my eye up there. Lots of hyperbole to go around in the talking head discussions of activity up there in the mitten. I don't have much opinion on the matter, as I'm in Texas and don't know any other life than "right to work." I will say that down here in Texas I've seen some things go on that I think would have been prevented by more empowered unions. I kind of wish we had "union-lite" down here.

    "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

    - Herman Göring at the Nuremburg trials (thoughts on democracy)

  6. #2406
    Cyburbian WSU MUP Student's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    There has been discussion about Michigan becoming a ‘right to work’ state. The union people make it sound like the end of the world, the GOP makes it sound like the best way to boost the economy and create jobs.

    I don’t know enough about the regulations but from my general understanding of the regulations, it would not require anyone to join a union and would not require them to pay to be part of the union.

    What are your thoughts on right to work laws? Is that all that they do or is there something else that was not listed?
    I generally support unions and union activity but I also don't think that workers that don't want to join a union at a unionized employer usually still have to pay the dues so I guess I support the idea of right to work legislation. However, I do not like the way it is being rushed through the lame duck session without opportunity for public comment and with the attachment of some appropriations which make it unable to be overturned by ballot initiative here in Michigan.
    "Where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost." - 1980 Republican presidential candidate Ronald Reagan

  7. #2407
    Cyburbian
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    Quote Originally posted by Suburb Repairman View post
    I will say that down here in Texas I've seen some things go on that I think would have been prevented by more empowered unions. I kind of wish we had "union-lite" down here.
    That's the thing that bugs me about the whole union debate. The anti-union side won't even acknowledge that employers sometimes take advantage of their employees. I don't think unions need to be anywhere near as powerful as they once were but I certainly think they have a place in our society.

  8. #2408
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Blide View post
    That's the thing that bugs me about the whole union debate. The anti-union side won't even acknowledge that employers sometimes take advantage of their employees. I don't think unions need to be anywhere near as powerful as they once were but I certainly think they have a place in our society.
    Oh, I agree 100%. Here in MI they were critical for improving working conditions. There is no question about that.

    While I agree with the right to work legislation, I think that the MI GOP is going about this in a sneaky way. It was not quite a back room deal, but not far off. I think that there should have been a bit more discussion and a few hearings before it was passed.
    Invest in the things today, that provide the returns tomorrow.

  9. #2409
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Mitch McConnel fillibusters himself. Classic

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...ilibuster.html
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  10. #2410
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    In the history of American politics, Congress and state legislatures have always used lame duck sessions to push through polarizing legislation.

    The 13th amendment to the Constitution is an example.

    I have no problem with how the Michigan GOP did it. If the Democrats don't like it, then start winning more elections.
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  11. #2411
    Cyburbian ColoGI's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by WSU MUP Student View post
    I generally support unions and union activity but I also don't think that workers that don't want to join a union at a unionized employer usually still have to pay the dues so I guess I support the idea of right to work legislation. However, I do not like the way it is being rushed through the lame duck session without opportunity for public comment and with the attachment of some appropriations which make it unable to be overturned by ballot initiative here in Michigan.
    That's how you thwart democracy. What party is doing this again, and how often does that party operate this way? Why does that party hate America??

    Nevertheless, unions getting too big for their britches lately is no excuse to eliminate them, unless you are an owner of a company.
    -------
    Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.

  12. #2412
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    I have no problem with how the Michigan GOP did it. If the Democrats don't like it, then start winning more elections.
    I don't either. If Michigan voters don't want unions to be busted and wages decreased then they voted for the wrong people. It's no secret what republicans wanted to do.

    It's also not that big of a secret that wages tend to decrease when these kind of laws are passed. http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.c...act_id=1027987
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

  13. #2413
    Cyburbian Veloise's avatar
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    Wish me luck!

    Tomorrow morning I am getting on a union bus and heading over to our state capitol, where I'll meet up with an expected 10,000 of my closest friends. Lansing FD announced street closings yesterday (they want to keep motor traffic down). The local bus system should do very well.

    If you see news coverage featuring a sousaphone with a Michigan bell cover played by someone in a fleecy red & green mitten-print jacket, you know who that will be.


  14. #2414
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner View post
    I don't either. If Michigan voters don't want unions to be busted and wages decreased then they voted for the wrong people. It's no secret what republicans wanted to do.

    It's also not that big of a secret that wages tend to decrease when these kind of laws are passed. http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.c...act_id=1027987
    Perhaps because over the last 50 years unions have artificially driven wages up, beyond what the market can truly support. Remember, the intransigence of the unions was just as much to blame for the near collapse of the Big 3.

    There are some school districts that are using snow days in Metro Detroit because so many teachers are going to protest in Lansing. Waste of time, since the Governor has already said he will not veto the legislation.

    I wonder if these union workers put as much effort into working as they do protesting, maybe they wouldn't need the unions.

    Wow......my inner conservative is really coming out on this issue.
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  15. #2415
    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    Not altogether sure I understand Mitch McConnell's political stragedy by introducing a bill to give the President the power to set the debt ceiling without requiring congressional approval. You may have heard about it, but he ended up in effect filibustering his own bill when the Dems agreed to call it to a vote.

    Here's an editorial piece on it http://www.kentucky.com/2012/12/11/2...te-reform.html
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

  16. #2416
    Cyburbian ColoGI's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Maister View post
    Not altogether sure I understand Mitch McConnell's political stragedy by introducing a bill to give the President the power to set the debt ceiling without requiring congressional approval. You may have heard about it, but he ended up in effect filibustering his own bill when the Dems agreed to call it to a vote.

    Here's an editorial piece on it http://www.kentucky.com/2012/12/11/2...te-reform.html
    He made a mistake and had to walk it back.

    Nevertheless, the Beltway Genius Talking Heads are in a little frenzy amongst themselves trying to blow enough smoke to confuse Americans on what is happening. Our corporate-owned media is failing what is left of our democracy.
    -------
    Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.

  17. #2417
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    Perhaps because over the last 50 years unions have artificially driven wages up, beyond what the market can truly support. Remember, the intransigence of the unions was just as much to blame for the near collapse of the Big 3.

    There are some school districts that are using snow days in Metro Detroit because so many teachers are going to protest in Lansing. Waste of time, since the Governor has already said he will not veto the legislation.

    I wonder if these union workers put as much effort into working as they do protesting, maybe they wouldn't need the unions.

    Wow......my inner conservative is really coming out on this issue.
    WTF? Did someone from the GOP hack your account? I agree with the legislation, but I feel that there should have been at least one hearing. As for the lame duck, they are still in session and they should still be doing work.

    I don't understand how freedom to choose is anti-union.

    I saw a cartoon showing the protest with the caption "record union productivity" under it.
    Invest in the things today, that provide the returns tomorrow.

  18. #2418
    Cyburbian wahday's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    Perhaps because over the last 50 years unions have artificially driven wages up, beyond what the market can truly support. Remember, the intransigence of the unions was just as much to blame for the near collapse of the Big 3.
    Inner conservative indeed!!

    But I would disagree with nailing the cause of the Big 3 collapse on unions demanding too much. When you add up salary and benefits, for example, the average auto worker in Germany makes $67.14 an hour. In the United States, auto workers only make $33.77 an hour in salary and benefits (these are 2010 stats). Only about 40 percent, for example, of Ford's workforce even works in North America, and that includes Mexico and Canada (and the average Mexican auto worker brings in less than a tenth of the total compensation that a U.S. auto worker makes). Given these stats, its hard for me to see that the union demands of American workers (which represent a fraction of the total American manufacturers' workforce) have that big an impact. More significant, I think, is the shrinking marketshare (60 percent in 1970, 20 percent today for American car companies) and a failure to innovate and plan ahead. With tariffs and such high wages, how is it, for example that Germany (which made more than twice the number cars the US did in 2010) is able to pay their workers so well and we can't? Admittedly I don't know alot about this topic, but this seems more like a management failure to me than a union problem.

    I don't mean to be defensive (you are certainly entitled to your opinion and you may know more than I) and I am not immune to realizing that there are cases where unions are abusive or demand/create situations that are untenable. But these are correctable problems within the system, IMO. Its a cause for reform, perhaps, but not throwing the whole thing out. Its like identifying government corruption and then deciding to get rid of it altogether. It just doesn't seem prudent or thoughtful to me...
    The purpose of life is a life of purpose

  19. #2419
    Right to work isn't about the right to work at all -- it's about busting the union movement entirely and thus destroying a major supporter of the Democratic party. It's that simple folks. We did it here in the Hoosier state and there's been no rush to expand/relocate to Indiana. Pure bunk.
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  20. #2420
    Cyburbian
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    Quote Originally posted by wahday View post
    But I would disagree with nailing the cause of the Big 3 collapse on unions demanding too much.
    Yeah, I don't think any company collapse can be completely attributed to unions. They may be a contributing factor but they're not the root cause. In the case of the Big 3, they got complacent and were releasing inferior products compared to their European and Japanese counterparts for a number of years. Eventually that caught up to them. So when they finally recognized they needed to make significant changes, the unions wouldn't let management make changes as quickly as they thought was necessary.

    Basically I think unions are completely manageable but you have to be proactive. Management just can't expect unions to rollover as soon as they come to the realization that they've spent years running the company into the ground.

  21. #2421
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    Perhaps because over the last 50 years unions have artificially driven wages up, beyond what the market can truly support. Remember, the intransigence of the unions was just as much to blame for the near collapse of the Big 3.

    There are some school districts that are using snow days in Metro Detroit because so many teachers are going to protest in Lansing. Waste of time, since the Governor has already said he will not veto the legislation.

    I wonder if these union workers put as much effort into working as they do protesting, maybe they wouldn't need the unions.

    Wow......my inner conservative is really coming out on this issue.
    Who knew you hated America?

    Certainly I agree unions have driven wages up. Do you think they are where the market can't support it? My view is that corporate profits have risen to a level not supported by the market? Wages have been flat while productivity gains are no longer shared by the workers.

    http://www.epi.org/publication/bp195/

    If wages are too high right now, what do you think would be a fair wage for people? 20 percent less, 50 percent less? Do you believe you should be paid less for what you do?
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

  22. #2422
    Cyburbian mgk920's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Gedunker View post
    Right to work isn't about the right to work at all -- it's about busting the union movement entirely and thus destroying a major supporter of the Democratic party. It's that simple folks. We did it here in the Hoosier state and there's been no rush to expand/relocate to Indiana. Pure bunk.
    ISTR that Caterpillar announced their plans to move production in their then recently acquired Electro-Motive Diesel division (they build railroad locomotives and are the corporate successor to GM's former Electro-Motive Division, which was originally located in McCook (suburban Chicagoland), IL) from London, ON to a new plant in Muncie, IN at about the same time that the Indiana Legislature was debating their RTW law and that that move was completed shortly after that law took effect. The union in London, ON was not happy about it.

    Mike

  23. #2423
    Forums Administrator & Gallery Moderator NHPlanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    I don't understand how freedom to choose is anti-union.
    RTW is not about "freedom to choose." It's about the ability for unions AND EMPLOYERS to negotiate the terms of a contract. If BOTH SIDES agree to charge a fee for those that choose not to join, but get the benefits and protections the union contract provides, what exactly is wrong with that?

    If both sides don't agree with agency fees, then they don't happen. Seems pretty simple to me.
    "Growth is inevitable and desirable, but destruction of community character is not. The question is not whether your part of the world is going to change. The question is how." -- Edward T. McMahon, The Conservation Fund

  24. #2424
    Cyburbian mgk920's avatar
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    The right to freely associate also includes the right to not associate with those with whom you disagree. IMHO, the ability to negotiate and sign 'free agent' contracts is very much included under that umbrella.

    Mike

  25. #2425
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by mgk920 View post
    ISTR that Caterpillar announced their plans to move production in their then recently acquired Electro-Motive Diesel division (they build railroad locomotives and are the corporate successor to GM's former Electro-Motive Division, which was originally located in McCook (suburban Chicagoland), IL) from London, ON to a new plant in Muncie, IN at about the same time that the Indiana Legislature was debating their RTW law and that that move was completed shortly after that law took effect. The union in London, ON was not happy about it.

    Mike
    Off-topic:
    Ahh Muncie. Great choice... lots to do for their employees...
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