Urban planning community | #theplannerlife

+ Reply to thread
Page 98 of 235 FirstFirst ... 88 97 98 99 108 ... LastLast
Results 2,426 to 2,450 of 5856

Thread: The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

  1. #2426
    Cyburbian Brocktoon's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Promoting synergies...
    Posts
    3,677
    Quote Originally posted by mgk920 View post
    ISTR that Caterpillar announced their plans to move production in their then recently acquired Electro-Motive Diesel division (they build railroad locomotives and are the corporate successor to GM's former Electro-Motive Division, which was originally located in McCook (suburban Chicagoland), IL) from London, ON to a new plant in Muncie, IN at about the same time that the Indiana Legislature was debating their RTW law and that that move was completed shortly after that law took effect. The union in London, ON was not happy about it.

    Mike
    Once again Mike you miss the fact and insert your own reality to the topic. EMD purchased the Muncie facility in October 2010. Indiana proposed the RTW legislation in January of 2012. The debate started in earnest on the topic until the summer of 2011.

    One could argue that the closure of the London facility and the movement of those lines to Muncie had to deal with the unions but not the initial site decision.
    "You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it,..." -Bane

  2. #2427
    Cyburbian hilldweller's avatar
    Registered
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Land of Confusion
    Posts
    3,872
    Quote Originally posted by NHPlanner View post
    RTW is not about "freedom to choose." It's about the ability for unions AND EMPLOYERS to negotiate the terms of a contract. If BOTH SIDES agree to charge a fee for those that choose not to join, but get the benefits and protections the union contract provides, what exactly is wrong with that?

    If both sides don't agree with agency fees, then they don't happen. Seems pretty simple to me.
    It is not so simple when you consider it from the standpoint of an individual employee who may not wish to be in the union. Their choice is either join the union and pay dues, or don't join the union but still pay the dues (or fee in lieu of dues). This is forced unionization really and it happens all the time.

  3. #2428
    Cyburbian Linda_D's avatar
    Registered
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Jamestown, New York
    Posts
    1,713
    Quote Originally posted by hilldweller View post
    It is not so simple when you consider it from the standpoint of an individual employee who may not wish to be in the union. Their choice is either join the union and pay dues, or don't join the union but still pay the dues (or fee in lieu of dues). This is forced unionization really and it happens all the time.
    Those who don't join but still pay dues also get the benefit of union negotiated wages, benefits, and job protections.
    If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. -- John F. Kennedy, January 20, 1961

  4. #2429
    Cyburbian hilldweller's avatar
    Registered
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Land of Confusion
    Posts
    3,872
    Quote Originally posted by Linda_D View post
    Those who don't join but still pay dues also get the benefit of union negotiated wages, benefits, and job protections.
    True, but what if one believes that these benefits are not worth the cost in terms of dues?

  5. #2430
    Quote Originally posted by mgk920 View post
    The right to freely associate also includes the right to not associate with those with whom you disagree. IMHO, the ability to negotiate and sign 'free agent' contracts is very much included under that umbrella.

    Mike
    You assume good faith negotiations. There's a long track record of that, right?

    Quote Originally posted by Hink View post
    Off-topic:
    Ahh Muncie. Great choice... lots to do for their employees...
    There's always Indy and the scenic Indiana countryside with abundant recreational activities. MGK can tell you about the excellent fishing that can be found in the state and the light, delicate, chemically enhanced flavor the of the fish.
    When did I go from Luke Skywalker to Obi-Wan Kenobi?

  6. #2431
    Cyburbian Linda_D's avatar
    Registered
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Jamestown, New York
    Posts
    1,713
    Quote Originally posted by hilldweller View post
    True, but what if one believes that these benefits are not worth the cost in terms of dues?
    Well, I suppose that perhaps those people who don't wish to join and don't want to pay dues should just take whatever their employers want to choose to give them and take their chances that they won't get fired because some manager wants to give some friend or relative a job. That's how it works in non-union shops. I've worked in both.
    If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. -- John F. Kennedy, January 20, 1961

  7. #2432
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
    Registered
    May 2005
    Location
    Metro Detroit
    Posts
    6,421
    Quote Originally posted by Linda_D View post
    Well, I suppose that perhaps those people who don't wish to join and don't want to pay dues should just take whatever their employers want to choose to give them and take their chances that they won't get fired because some manager wants to give some friend or relative a job. That's how it works in non-union shops. I've worked in both.
    That's what millions of workers already do.
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  8. #2433
    Cyburbian hilldweller's avatar
    Registered
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Land of Confusion
    Posts
    3,872
    Quote Originally posted by Linda_D View post
    Well, I suppose that perhaps those people who don't wish to join and don't want to pay dues should just take whatever their employers want to choose to give them and take their chances that they won't get fired because some manager wants to give some friend or relative a job. That's how it works in non-union shops. I've worked in both.
    Please. Nobody does patronage hiring better than the unions.

  9. #2434
    Cyburbian ColoGI's avatar
    Registered
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Colo Front Range
    Posts
    2,576
    Quote Originally posted by hilldweller View post
    Please. Nobody does patronage hiring better than the unions.
    I agree that unions have overstepped their bounds and failed to adapt.

    But srsly, can anyone here argue that they are important instruments in keeping corporate power somewhat in bounds, and that without them we wouldn't have 40 hour weeks, health benefits, etc? Didn't think so. They are necessary.
    -------
    Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.

  10. #2435
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Here, but where are you?
    Posts
    16,020
    Quote Originally posted by Gedunker View post
    Right to work isn't about the right to work at all -- it's about busting the union movement entirely and thus destroying a major supporter of the Democratic party. It's that simple folks. We did it here in the Hoosier state and there's been no rush to expand/relocate to Indiana. Pure bunk.
    I just sat down and read the bill... It is the right to choose. If people what to stay in a union, they will have the ability to, and the unions will still be able to negotiate contracts for them.

    However, unions will need to be able to compete I the free market. It will come down to the question if people believe the unions are a good value for the money, then the unions will have nothing to worry about.
    "The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism." - George Washington

  11. #2436
    Cyburbian WSU MUP Student's avatar
    Registered
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Lowering the PCI in the Hills
    Posts
    6,870
    I think our very own Veloise made it into the live updates via Twitter on the Detroit Free Press Website:

    Shawn Windsor @shawnwindsor
    The Grand Rapids street musician drove over because "whenever 2 or more people get together to discuss democracy I want to b there."
    Shawn Windsor @shawnwindsor
    <name> arrived at Capitol with a cast on her foot. She took a seat near the steps, unpacked her sousaphone and played all morning.
    Moderator note:

    modified to eliminate an unintentional outing of a member's real name.

    SR
    Last edited by Suburb Repairman; 11 Dec 2012 at 4:17 PM.
    "Where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost." - 1980 Republican presidential candidate Ronald Reagan

  12. #2437
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
    Registered
    May 2005
    Location
    Metro Detroit
    Posts
    6,421
    In Michigan, the people should be protesting the possible elimination of Personal Property Tax revenue to local municipalities. This could have a far greater negative impact on public sector employees than the switch to a right-to-work state.
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  13. #2438
    Cyburbian Veloise's avatar
    Registered
    May 2004
    Location
    Grand Rapids, Michigan (Detroit ex-pat since 2004)
    Posts
    5,061

    "The instrument of solidarity"

    Quote Originally posted by WSU MUP Student View post
    I think our very own Veloise made it into the live updates via Twitter on the Detroit Free Press Website:

  14. #2439
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
    Registered
    May 2004
    Location
    Snarkville
    Posts
    6,594
    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    It will come down to the question if people believe the unions are a good value for the money, then the unions will have nothing to worry about.
    Not really. This bill appears to require unions to still negotiate on behalf of people who don't pay union dues. Basically it allows free-loaders. I never figured you for a supporter of free-loaders.

    Quote Originally posted by ColoGI View post
    I agree that unions have overstepped their bounds and failed to adapt.

    But srsly, can anyone here argue that they are important instruments in keeping corporate power somewhat in bounds, and that without them we wouldn't have 40 hour weeks, health benefits, etc? Didn't think so. They are necessary.
    The GOP doesn't approve of 40 hour work weeks, or health benefits, or safety standards. The honest conservatives will tell you this to your face.
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

  15. #2440
    Cyburbian ColoGI's avatar
    Registered
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Colo Front Range
    Posts
    2,576
    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner View post
    The GOP doesn't approve of 40 hour work weeks, or health benefits, or safety standards. The honest conservatives will tell you this to your face.
    I partially agree with you. Some honest conservatives I know will tell you that functioning markets (not necessarily "free" markets) need agents that have purchasing power and grudgingly admit that workers with good jobs fulfill that requirement after admitting that they can't think of another way to make that happen. You won't hear that on foamer radio, though.
    Last edited by ColoGI; 11 Dec 2012 at 10:30 PM.
    -------
    Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.

  16. #2441
    Cyburbian Veloise's avatar
    Registered
    May 2004
    Location
    Grand Rapids, Michigan (Detroit ex-pat since 2004)
    Posts
    5,061

    Tuba time!

    This was after the guitarists figured out I was there, and let me know what key to play in.



    The upside-down state flag (on E-Z pack PVC poles) is something else I brought along.

  17. #2442
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Here, but where are you?
    Posts
    16,020
    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner View post
    Not really. This bill appears to require unions to still negotiate on behalf of people who don't pay union dues. Basically it allows free-loaders. I never figured you for a supporter of free-loaders.
    Quote Originally posted by House Bill 4003
    Sec. 1. (1) As used in this act:
    (a) “Bargaining representative” means a labor organization recognized by an employer or certified by the commission as the sole and exclusive bargaining representative of certain employees of the employer.

    Sec. 9.
    (2) No person shall by force, intimidation, or unlawful threats compel or attempt to compel any public employee to
    do any of the following:
    (a) Become or remain a member of a labor organization or bargaining representative or otherwise affiliate with or
    financially support a labor organization or bargaining representative.

    [Note:this applies to Police and Fire Fighters only]
    (b) Any person described in subdivision (a), or a labor organization or bargaining representative representing
    persons described in subdivision (a) and a public employer or this state may agree that all employees in the bargaining
    unit shall share fairly in the financial support of the labor organization or their exclusive bargaining representative by
    paying a fee to the labor organization or exclusive bargaining representative that may be equivalent to the amount of
    dues uniformly required of members of the labor organization or exclusive bargaining representative. Section 9(2) shall
    not be construed to interfere with the right of a public employer or this state and a labor organization or bargaining
    representative to enter into or lawfully administer such an agreement as it relates to the employees or persons
    described in subdivision (a).
    LINK TO ACTUAL BILL

    By definition, they only represent the union members, not all employees.

    I don't support freeloading, I support freedom.

    There are good unions out there. As I noted before, my Brother In Law's Union finds him work across the country and I think that is awesome.

    If people want to support the unions and protest, I am cool with that and actually encourage it. But the only thing that this bill does is give most people (not including firefighters or police officers) an option to be in the union and [sarcasm] reap the awesome rewards [/sarcasm] or run the risk of being their own person and being responsible for their own situation.

    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner View post
    The GOP doesn't approve of 40 hour work weeks, or health benefits, or safety standards. The honest conservatives will tell you this to your face.
    That is a total load of crap and you and I both know it. If it wasn't why would any republicans have health care or worry about safety standards? As for a 40 hour work week that reminded me of a story:
    Three little kids were bragging about how fast their fathers where.
    The first little kid said that his dad was so fast, he could shoot an arrow, run down to the target and hold an apple for the arrow to hit.
    The second little kid said that his dad was so fast, he could shoot a gun, run down and hold up a quarter for the bullet to hit.
    The third little kid (son of a UAW) said that his dad was so fast, he punches out of work at 5pm and would get home at 2pm.
    Last edited by michaelskis; 12 Dec 2012 at 1:25 PM.
    "The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism." - George Washington

  18. #2443
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
    Registered
    May 2004
    Location
    Snarkville
    Posts
    6,594
    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post

    That is a total load of crap and you and I both know it. .
    No its not. The anti-union efforts are being spearheaded by the Koch brothers and the waltons. The anti-union bills use the exact same language as the model bills from their dunded AEP and ALEC organizations that are dedicated to rolling back labor laws, safety laws and benefits. These are the same people who refused to provide basic safety standards in Bangladesh resulting in huindreds of people dying in their factories. They make no secret about rolling back federal labor and safety standards. They don't agree with being forced to pay ovetime over 40 hours a week. They don't want to have to comply with OSHA. They want to get rid of the clean air and clean water act. They admit it. Some conservative talkers even outright say it. They don't want the federal government to be setting standards for these things. You've even hinted at believeing the fed shouldn't be dealing with those issues. Like I said- honest conservatives admit this. Dishonest ones call it a load of crap.
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

  19. #2444
    Cyburbian ColoGI's avatar
    Registered
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Colo Front Range
    Posts
    2,576
    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner View post
    No its not. The anti-union efforts are being spearheaded by the Koch brothers and the waltons. The anti-union bills use the exact same language as the model bills from their dunded AEP and ALEC organizations that are dedicated to rolling back labor laws, safety laws and benefits. .
    These basic facts are, of course, well-known outside the bubble. What is not as well known is that Snyder and Walker lied about their intentions. Or at least disguised their anti-union intentions during their campaigns. But Snyder specifically stated numerous times gutting unions ALEC-style was not on his agenda.

    Why so many people vote for these charlatans is beyond me because of our lazy media and poor public education system, IMHO.
    -------
    Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.

  20. #2445
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Here, but where are you?
    Posts
    16,020
    Quote Originally posted by imaplanner View post
    No its not. The anti-union efforts are being spearheaded by the Koch brothers and the waltons. The anti-union bills use the exact same language as the model bills from their dunded AEP and ALEC organizations that are dedicated to rolling back labor laws, safety laws and benefits. These are the same people who refused to provide basic safety standards in Bangladesh resulting in huindreds of people dying in their factories. They make no secret about rolling back federal labor and safety standards. They don't agree with being forced to pay ovetime over 40 hours a week. They don't want to have to comply with OSHA. They want to get rid of the clean air and clean water act. They admit it. Some conservative talkers even outright say it. They don't want the federal government to be setting standards for these things. You've even hinted at believeing the fed shouldn't be dealing with those issues. Like I said- honest conservatives admit this. Dishonest ones call it a load of crap.
    Are there people who are anti-union, including the Koch brothers. Absolutely! They push to prohibit unions or prohibit collective bargaining. I don't believe that any government should prohibit them.

    As for the fed dealing with these issues, your right. I don't think that the Fed should deal with these issues. It is not their job, it is each States' job to address them. That is the way that the founding fathers intended it to be.

    I do think that each state should have OSHA regulations to protect people on the job. Right now that is how it works in Michigan.

    I do not think that we should have a minimum wadge and I do not thing that there should be a regulated work week. Seriously, how many Planners do you know that limit themselves to a 40 hour work week? I know too many people who have been extremely successful because when they were young the tossed out the idea that they were only going to work 40 hours a week. For example, I work 3 days a week and sometimes those days are 14 to 15 hours long. But I spend the other 4 days with my family.

    I also think that each state should have some level of environmental regulations. More so, I think that there needs to be serious improvement in public education regarding the products we buy and how the manufacturing or use of these products impacts the natural environment.

    You can say what you want, but to call this bill union busting is still a load of crap. But then again, if Unions are so wonderful, people will be falling over themselves to stay in and unions will have more money than ever before. OR, people will realize that some unions (Not all but some) don't represent the ideas and principles that they believe and get out.

    Dishonest republicans might call it a load of crap, but so to honest Libertarian / Independents who know the truth.

    Quote Originally posted by ColoGI View post
    These basic facts are, of course, well-known outside the bubble. What is not as well known is that Snyder and Walker lied about their intentions. Or at least disguised their anti-union intentions during their campaigns. But Snyder specifically stated numerous times gutting unions ALEC-style was not on his agenda.
    And Obama once said he was not in favor of same sex marriage. But as the saying goes, you can tell if a politician is lying if their mouth is moving.
    "The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism." - George Washington

  21. #2446
    Cyburbian ColoGI's avatar
    Registered
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Colo Front Range
    Posts
    2,576
    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    And Obama once said he was not in favor of same sex marriage. But as the saying goes, you can tell if a politician is lying if their mouth is moving.
    Thanks for the false equivalence.

    And for inadvertently pointing out how his opinion on this issue is not related to RTW at all (except on the action occurring at the state level).
    -------
    Give a man a gun, and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank, and he can rob the world.

  22. #2447
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
    Registered
    May 2005
    Location
    Metro Detroit
    Posts
    6,421
    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    As for the fed dealing with these issues, your right. I don't think that the Fed should deal with these issues. It is not their job, it is each States' job to address them. That is the way that the founding fathers intended it to be.

    I do think that each state should have OSHA regulations to protect people on the job. Right now that is how it works in Michigan.

    I do not think that we should have a minimum wadge and I do not thing that there should be a regulated work week. Seriously, how many Planners do you know that limit themselves to a 40 hour work week? I know too many people who have been extremely successful because when they were young the tossed out the idea that they were only going to work 40 hours a week. For example, I work 3 days a week and sometimes those days are 14 to 15 hours long. But I spend the other 4 days with my family.

    I also think that each state should have some level of environmental regulations. More so, I think that there needs to be serious improvement in public education regarding the products we buy and how the manufacturing or use of these products impacts the natural environment.
    .
    I'd have to disagree with you on the fed/State issue on this one. I think there needs to be Federal workplace and labor oversight. Our economy is not restricted to state lines, and because of our telecommunication and transportation infrastructure, many businesses cross state lines with ease and can move their company. I think that if all states had their own rules it would be a race to the bottom in terms of employee compensation/benefit vs. Corporate profits. It would be very similar to the arguments over granting tax abatements. Many states don't like tax abatements, but they have no choice but to grant them because other states do it. It would be similar with wages and benefits. As soon as some states started to reduce them below federal levels to appease corporations, all states would do it and hence the race to the bottom. There needs to be some minimum levels that all states adhere to.
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  23. #2448
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
    Registered
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Here, but where are you?
    Posts
    16,020
    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    I'd have to disagree with you on the fed/State issue on this one. I think there needs to be Federal workplace and labor oversight. Our economy is not restricted to state lines, and because of our telecommunication and transportation infrastructure, many businesses cross state lines with ease and can move their company. I think that if all states had their own rules it would be a race to the bottom in terms of employee compensation/benefit vs. Corporate profits. It would be very similar to the arguments over granting tax abatements. Many states don't like tax abatements, but they have no choice but to grant them because other states do it. It would be similar with wages and benefits. As soon as some states started to reduce them below federal levels to appease corporations, all states would do it and hence the race to the bottom. There needs to be some minimum levels that all states adhere to.
    That is ok to disagree with me on this. If we both had your view point on this, we would both be wrong.

    If you think about it, our economy is not restricted to any lines. Look at the companies that leave the US. There are even corporations who set up shop just inside of Mexico and some of the workers live in the US take corporate buses over the line for work every day.

    Lines in most places only dictate regulations and taxes. Just look at all the wealthy French people who are buying homes and land just on the other side of the eastern border because of new tax laws. They still do business in France, but live in Belgium, Switzerland, Germany, Italy, or Luxembourg.
    "The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism." - George Washington

  24. #2449
    Cyburbian
    Registered
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Wherever
    Posts
    1,186
    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    I'd have to disagree with you on the fed/State issue on this one. I think there needs to be Federal workplace and labor oversight. Our economy is not restricted to state lines, and because of our telecommunication and transportation infrastructure, many businesses cross state lines with ease and can move their company. I think that if all states had their own rules it would be a race to the bottom in terms of employee compensation/benefit vs. Corporate profits. It would be very similar to the arguments over granting tax abatements. Many states don't like tax abatements, but they have no choice but to grant them because other states do it. It would be similar with wages and benefits. As soon as some states started to reduce them below federal levels to appease corporations, all states would do it and hence the race to the bottom. There needs to be some minimum levels that all states adhere to.
    This race to the bottom mentality that many states have going on is in no way sustainable. That's a big reason why I'd like to see more Federal oversight. At some point, the floor is just going to drop for the nation as a whole as states keep cannibalizing each other.

  25. #2450
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
    Registered
    May 2005
    Location
    Metro Detroit
    Posts
    6,421
    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    That is ok to disagree with me on this. If we both had your view point on this, we would both be wrong.

    If you think about it, our economy is not restricted to any lines. Look at the companies that leave the US. There are even corporations who set up shop just inside of Mexico and some of the workers live in the US take corporate buses over the line for work every day.

    Lines in most places only dictate regulations and taxes. Just look at all the wealthy French people who are buying homes and land just on the other side of the eastern border because of new tax laws. They still do business in France, but live in Belgium, Switzerland, Germany, Italy, or Luxembourg.
    If the economy is not restricted to any lines, then that's even more reason there needs to be federal oversight. I'm not saying the Feds need to be involved in every single thing or set unreasonable standards, but there should be minimum standards of compensation, labor conditions, etc.
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

+ Reply to thread
Page 98 of 235 FirstFirst ... 88 97 98 99 108 ... LastLast

More at Cyburbia

  1. Replies: 9
    Last post: 02 Jul 2015, 12:07 PM
  2. Replies: 6
    Last post: 04 Sep 2013, 8:26 AM
  3. Rules discussion thread
    Cyburbia Issues and Help
    Replies: 12
    Last post: 16 Mar 2012, 9:37 AM
  4. The non-political political thread
    Friday Afternoon Club
    Replies: 19
    Last post: 17 Sep 2004, 1:17 PM