Future of American malls

[urban19]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124294047987244803.html

http://www.icsc.org/srch/lib/2009_S-...TION_May09.pdf

I think malls were an old American shopping center design that got put under by the strip malls and new consumer trends. It's not the malls who are hurting, but the stores in them. Unless malls become enclosed strip malls they won't last.

In California, I have a feeling in ten years many of the malls in smaller markets will hit rock bottom. Bayshore Mall, Hanford Mall, Santa Maria Town Center, and County Fair Mall all are suffering by being short by one or two anchors.

Outlet malls, lifestyle centers, and theme/festival centers which attract tourists and are in areas where consumers have more spending money are doing better. All though, I'd like to see how long lifestyle centers hold out.

[smccutchan1]

Malls in smaller markets have never performed well and should have never been built in the first place. They just destroyed the traditional downtowns of smaller markets that would have been thriving retail and entertainment districts in today's market place. San Luis Obispo, California (I'm a Cal Poly SLO grad) is a good example of a smaller market that held on to its downtown and now is much better for it.

I believe that the end of the recession will cause some shifts in the retail market, but will continue to rely the muscle of national discount department stores like Target and Walmart and warehouses like Costco and Sam's Club. Regional malls will continue to do well in more affluent communities with anchors like Nordstrom's and Sak's that will still attract their traditional wealthy clientele. Main stream malls with anchors like Penney's and Sear's will continue to decline and likely be redeveloped into lifestyle centers and entertainment complexes to survive.

[H]

The city of Tallahassee retrofitted an older mall (that was left vacant by a newer mall) with state government offices. My brother worked there for a while. Not a window in his dept. It is a bleak place to work. But its efficient (I guess).

[urban19]

Malls in smaller markets have never performed well and should have never been built in the first place. They just destroyed the traditional downtowns of smaller markets that would have been thriving retail and entertainment districts in today's market place. San Luis Obispo, California (I'm a Cal Poly SLO grad) is a good example of a smaller market that held on to its downtown and now is much better for it.

I believe that the end of the recession will cause some shifts in the retail market, but will continue to rely the muscle of national discount department stores like Target and Walmart and warehouses like Costco and Sam's Club. Regional malls will continue to do well in more affluent communities with anchors like Nordstrom's and Sak's that will still attract their traditional wealthy clientele. Main stream malls with anchors like Penney's and Sear's will continue to decline and likely be redeveloped into lifestyle centers and entertainment complexes to survive.

I don't think all the older malls can be changed into lifestyle centers. Merced, Santa Maria, Eureka, and Woodland don't have that clientale. San Luis Obispo used to have the Central Coast Mall BTW, and they are now building a lifestyle center on Palm and Monterey street. Everyone saw that coming though because of Court Street and Sport's Authority showed a change from more retail in downtown to generate more tax revenue.

For malls in middle class communities there are 3 options:

A) tear down mall and put in a power center with/ lifestyle center aspects
B) tear down mall and put in a power center
C) put walmarts, targets, and big box stores in malls.

[DetroitPlanner]

I don't think all the older malls can be changed into lifestyle centers. Merced, Santa Maria, Eureka, and Woodland don't have that clientale. San Luis Obispo used to have the Central Coast Mall BTW, and they are now building a lifestyle center on Palm and Monterey street. Everyone saw that coming though because of Court Street and Sport's Authority showed a change from more retail in downtown to generate more tax revenue.

For malls in middle class communities there are 3 options:

A) tear down mall and put in a power center with/ lifestyle center aspects
B) tear down mall and put in a power center
C) put walmarts, targets, and big box stores in malls.

Clientele? I did not realize that lifestyle centers had to be exclusive. Can't lifestyle centers also have stoes like Old Navy in them? A mall local to me ripped down an anchor store (Saks) and replaced it with some yupscale chain restraunts. I've seen the same thing happened in Flint and Toledo. None of these areas are particularly wealthy. The replacements for the anchor stores are more like lifestyle centers than the regional malls they are attached to.

Older style malls chief problem is that a multi story layout is not conducive to the flat single story growing retail segments of the discount retailer (Walmart/Target) and the slow progression of JCPenny with its smaller free standing stores and the still up in the air K-mart/Sears future offspring.

[urban19]

Clientele? I did not realize that lifestyle centers had to be exclusive. Can't lifestyle centers also have stoes like Old Navy in them? A mall local to me ripped down an anchor store (Saks) and replaced it with some yupscale chain restraunts. I've seen the same thing happened in Flint and Toledo. None of these areas are particularly wealthy. The replacements for the anchor stores are more like lifestyle centers than the regional malls they are attached to.

Older style malls chief problem is that a multi story layout is not conducive to the flat single story growing retail segments of the discount retailer (Walmart/Target) and the slow progression of JCPenny with its smaller free standing stores and the still up in the air K-mart/Sears future offspring.

I just think you can't change many old malls into lifestyle centers. I think most malls are going to be converted into office complexes or power centers. Ones in downtowns will be converted to fit into their downtown surroundings and ones in suburban areas will be converted into strip malls. I bet a small percentile will be converted into lifestyle centers. You are going to see more Super Targets, Super Wal-Marts, Costcos, and Sam's Clubs.

[DetroitPlanner]

In places with extreme climate the enclosed shopping mall will still have some sort of place. Where I live we have temprature swings of 125 degrees f. Its too bloody cold out in January and too hot in July for people to want to be outdoors for extended periods.

Discount big boxes? The market has been trending that way for quite some time. You forgot to list Meijer. What do you propose for areas that do not have the land available to develop a 250,000 square foot, single floor car-centric big box?

[JimPlans]

What do you propose for areas that do not have the land available to develop a 250,000 square foot, single floor car-centric big box?

There are some multi-story "big box" stores out there, in areas that had little available land. One is the Target in Gaithersburg, MD. (Image). Supposedly, this was the first two-story Target in the U.S., and even has an escalator that you can take your shopping cart on. It also supposedly has much higher sales per square foot than the average Target.

These stores will adapt their footprints to be in the markets that they want to be in.

Edit: Link to story on "unique" Target store formats: http://www.newurbannews.com/TargetInsideOct05.html

[Brocktoon]

I think indoor malls will be fine...old people need a place to get their air conditioned exercise in the summer. Central air will be the saving grace for these mecca's of consumerism.

Plus teenagers need a place to go to hang out and do teenage things and we all know that teenagers don't go outside until nightfall. Plus the stay at home mom's need somewhere to go while the kids are at school.

The hot summers or cold winters will keep these groups coming back for a long time.

[CJC]

There are some multi-story "big box" stores out there, in areas that had little available land. One is the Target in Gaithersburg, MD. (Image). Supposedly, this was the first two-story Target in the U.S., and even has an escalator that you can take your shopping cart on. It also supposedly has much higher sales per square foot than the average Target.

These stores will adapt their footprints to be in the markets that they want to be in.

Edit: Link to story on "unique" Target store formats: http://www.newurbannews.com/TargetInsideOct05.html

Yeah, there are boatloads of two and three story Targets in California - some converted former Montgomery Ward locations, some built from scratch for Target. Target is actually in talks with two different places in San Francisco to locate a store in a place with ZERO parking of their own (there are some existing garages nearby). One would be a three story setup, one would be a five story setup. The word from them has been that this store will be slightly different than most of their stores - in other words, less space set aside for furniture and other large items, probably more space for smaller items needed by urban dwellers, tourists, and office workers (both stores would be in the Union Square downtown shopping district).

[DetroitPlanner]

Jim, thanks. I have only seens a couple multi-story Target stores, one in a very non-auto centric Downtown MPS and the other in a fairly auto-centric Bloomfield Twp Michigan. The one in Bloomfield is mostly built as a one story store above a parking lot! It was the only way it could shoe-horn the store into the relatively monied suburb. IMO that one does not look too hot.

CJC, I would like to see them take on an old Montgomery Ward store, unfortunately most of the Ward Stores around here are either filled or town down. Are any of these around Orange County?

[CJC]

CJC, I would like to see them take on an old Montgomery Ward store, unfortunately most of the Ward Stores around here are either filled or town down. Are any of these around Orange County?

Not sure if there are any in Orange County that were former Wards stores. There are quite a few in the Bay Area - typically if it's a multi-story Target attached to a mall, it was a Wards at one point in time. If it's a multi-story Target not attached to a mall, it was built specifically for Target.

If you're at all familiar with the Bay Area, the former Wards locations are in San Bruno (Tanforan Mall), Sunnyvale (Sunnyvale Town Center), San Jose (Oakridge Mall and Westgate Mall), Newark (New Park Mall), and probably one or two more that I'm forgetting or have never been to.

[Gotta Speakup]

Cheap thrill: Watching the carts go up the special cart escalator! It is kinda fun to watch tho!

[CJC]

^The best is watching the occasional mom who forgets a toddler or baby in the cart and freaks out as the cart starts to go up the escalator with the kid sitting in it!

[urban19]

I understand the fact about malls are needed in areas with not enjoyable climates, but if the consumer can't afford to shop there I don't see how they will make it. Also, people aren't just walking in the heat in power centers.

Where I am from San Luis Obispo has a lifestyle center and theme/festival center in their downtown and used to have an enclosed mall. The downtown and any shopping center or store located down there is doing great if they can afford the rent.

I am not sure if it's the location and shopping center design, the amount of college consumers in the area, or the wealthy consumers that are allowing our area to prosper.

On the other hand, the city of Santa Maria has an enclosed mall that is barely holding on. The mall has an abandoned Mervyn's building nearby, a Gottschalks building being converted into a food court on one level and a theater on another, and the Macy's department store is not doing good in the center. National retailers have been leaving the center.

The mall in Santa Maria, Eureka, and Woodland are three malls I think might not make it. Woodland's mall has a better chance of dying than the others.

[Gotta Speakup]

^The best is watching the occasional mom who forgets a toddler or baby in the cart and freaks out as the cart starts to go up the escalator with the kid sitting in it!

Around Boston, there are a number of supermarkets that have conveyor belts that take bins full of groceries from the checkouts to a pick up place under the store. I would have loved to have gone for a ride in one of those bins when I was a kid. they should be safe, after all, one's eggs arrive unbroken.

[urban19]

I have a question on how to identify a lifestyle center.

IN Davis, there is a shopping center called Davis Commons. There is a Borders, a Gap, Bath and Body Works, and some speciality food stores. Less than 50,000 sq. ft.

Is it a lifestyle center?

In San Luis Obispo we have the Downtown Center which includes Gap, Express, Sunglass Hut, Mundo's, Chino's, Pizza Mio, California Pizza Kitchen, Barnes N Nobles, Starbucks, Jamba Juice, and a movie theater. Totals at 90,000sq. ft.

Another one, Court Street Center. It includes Talbots, Chicos, Pottery Barn, Sephora, Salon Lux, Abercrombie and Fitch, Banana Republic, Taste Wine Shop, Addicted Jeans, Yogurt Creations, Palazzo Guiseppe, and Powell's Sweet Shoppe. 50,000 sq. ft. of retail, and 90,000 ft total with office buildings.

[Raf]

I have a question on how to identify a lifestyle center.

IN Davis, there is a shopping center called Davis Commons. There is a Borders, a Gap, Bath and Body Works, and some speciality food stores. Less than 50,000 sq. ft.

Is it a lifestyle center?

No. It is just a shopping center with a downtown setting. seriously, what gives with this lifestyle center bs?

[urban19]

what about the downtown center and court street center in downtown san luis obispo?

[urban19]

So would the Court Street Center and Downtown Center be considered lifestyle centers?

[DetroitPlanner]

So would the Court Street Center and Downtown Center be considered lifestyle centers?

Can you elaborate? While you may know it, San Luis Obispo is not exactly on the radar for most in this forum. BTW not using capitalization is a sure sign that you have no respect for the town or how you present yourelf to the world. Please get in the habit of capitalizing proper nouns both you and your boss will thank me once you are out of school.

[urban19]

Can you elaborate? While you may know it, San Luis Obispo is not exactly on the radar for most in this forum. BTW not using capitalization is a sure sign that you have no respect for the town or how you present yourelf to the world. Please get in the habit of capitalizing proper nouns both you and your boss will thank me once you are out of school.

I have a question on how to identify a lifestyle center.

IN Davis, there is a shopping center called Davis Commons. There is a Borders, a Gap, Bath and Body Works, and some speciality food stores. Less than 50,000 sq. ft.

Is it a lifestyle center?

In San Luis Obispo we have the Downtown Center which includes Gap, Express, Sunglass Hut, Mundo's, Chino's, Pizza Mio, California Pizza Kitchen, Barnes N Nobles, Starbucks, Jamba Juice, and a movie theater. Totals at 90,000sq. ft.

Another one, Court Street Center. It includes Talbots, Chicos, Pottery Barn, Sephora, Salon Lux, Abercrombie and Fitch, Banana Republic, Taste Wine Shop, Addicted Jeans, Yogurt Creations, Palazzo Guiseppe, and Powell's Sweet Shoppe. 50,000 sq. ft. of retail, and 90,000 ft total with office buildings.

I posted earlier what stores are in the two shopping centers, but here it is again.

[DetroitPlanner]

I did not still understand what you were getting at, but I used google maps to look around Downtown SLO. A power or lifestyle center is developed all at once with one owner. This is clearly not the case with downtown SLO. There is a relatively large development with the A & F that could best be described as an Urban Mall.

A lifestyle center is comparable to this.

As you can see one developer surrounded by parking, a glorified strip mall.

[Cardinal]

I have a hard time following your comments. It seems like you want to over-simplify things, looking for blanket statements to characterize really subtle distinctions. For instance, what stores are in the mall is really a very small part of determining whether or not it is a "lifestyle center".

As Detroit Planner mentioned, very few of the people in this forum have been to San Luis Obispo, so do not expect that we can tell you specifics about the malls there.

[urban19]

I did not still understand what you were getting at, but I used google maps to look around Downtown SLO. A power or lifestyle center is developed all at once with one owner. This is clearly not the case with downtown SLO. There is a relatively large development with the A & F that could best be described as an Urban Mall.

A lifestyle center is comparable to this.

As you can see one developer surrounded by parking, a glorified strip mall.

The Court Street Center and Downtown Center were both developed at once by one single owner and that is Mr. Copeland. The Court Street Center was a redevelopment project much like downtown center is. They are similar to the Americana at Brand in Glendale.

Here is a pic of the Court Street Center

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...01134&t=h&z=17

Another pic of Court Street Center

http://www.zimfamilycockers.com/SLO-CourtStreet.jpg

Now here is one of the Downtown Center

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...01134&t=h&z=17

and another pic of the downtown center

http://www.thomaelec.com/gallery/SLOdowntown1_lrg.jpg

More info on the court street center:

http://www.icsc.org/usdesignawards/U...09_Winners.pdf