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Thread: Anti-ACLU Sentiment...why?

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    Cyburbian zman's avatar
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    Anti-ACLU Sentiment...why?

    So, as I explore some various realms of American politics, I cannot help but notice messages that are plastered among the bumpers of the nation.

    One that sparked my interest the other was an anti-ACLU bumper sticker with the "C" being displayed as a hammer and sickle a la the old Soviet flag. This was primarily displayed by a driver of a Conservative persuasion.

    As someone who is getting more in line with a Libertarian viewpoint (left-leaning), I have a problem with someone speaking against an organization that upholds civil liberties. But alas, I am not too framiliar with the issues that circulate this organization.

    I am wondering, why are certain people against the ACLU?

    This thread is laden with water... therefore flames are not recommended.
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    Cyburbian Bubba's avatar
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    This topic was touched on (a little) in the Presidential Election thread. It seems to me that part of the ACLU's image problem has to do with the fights that they choose to pick (and especially on the unpopular ones that get publicized)...the just don't do a good enough job with their spin sometimes.
    I found you a new motto from a sign hanging on their wall…"Drink coffee: do stupid things faster and with more energy"

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    Cyburbian hilldweller's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by zmanPLAN View post
    I am wondering, why are certain people against the ACLU?

    This thread is laden with water... therefore flames are not recommended.
    It seems like it is mostly right-wingers that are anti-ACLU. Perhaps they feel like it advocates for liberal speech/ideas only? I could see that as a fair criticism, if it was not being fair to speech at both ends of the spectrum.

    But if the ACLU is defending speech evenly on both sides I don't see why people should oppose it. And associating it with communism makes no sense to me whatsoever.

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    Cyburbian TexanOkie's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Bubba View post
    It seems to me that part of the ACLU's image problem has to do with the fights that they choose to pick (and especially on the unpopular ones that get publicized)...
    That sums up popular sentiment from conservatives pretty well.

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    Cyburbian Brocktoon's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by hilldweller View post
    It seems like it is mostly right-wingers that are anti-ACLU. Perhaps they feel like it advocates for liberal speech/ideas only? I could see that as a fair criticism, if it was not being fair to speech at both ends of the spectrum.

    But if the ACLU is defending speech evenly on both sides I don't see why people should oppose it. And associating it with communism makes no sense to me whatsoever.
    The funny part is the ACLU fights for First Amendment rights which is one of the issues that consevatives have with McCain but you don't see the hard core right wingers breaking out their ACLU cards. I guess their objections to McCain Feingold has more to do with money than free speech.
    "You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it,..." -Bane

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    Cyburbian Plan-it's avatar
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    The ACLU can make no one happy. The right wing does not like them because of their opposition to religion mixing with politics, support of the porn industry, and desire for the protection of privacy rights. The left does not like them because they support free speech rights for KKK members and other anti-whatever groups and their desire to protect privacy rights. The nature of the organization makes them difficult to like from a political standpoint, but vital to our ability to keep government out of aspects of our lives that they have no business in.
    Satellite City Enabler

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    Cyburbian zman's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Plan-it View post
    The ACLU can make no one happy. The right wing does not like them because of their opposition to religion mixing with politics, support of the porn industry, and desire for the protection of privacy rights. The left does not like them because they support free speech rights for KKK members and other anti-whatever groups and their desire to protect privacy rights. The nature of the organization makes them difficult to like from a political standpoint, but vital to our ability to keep government out of aspects of our lives that they have no business in.
    This is kind of what I had thought. Thanks.
    You get all squeezed up inside/Like the days were carved in stone/You get all wired up inside/And it's bad to be alone

    You can go out, you can take a ride/And when you get out on your own/You get all smoothed out inside/And it's good to be alone
    -Peart

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    Cyburbian Richi's avatar
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    It may be a bit simplistic, but any group that is able to piss off both sides of the political spectrum must be doing something right. I've been a member for over 10 years now.

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    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    http://people.howstuffworks.com/aclu.htm

    I didn’t read the entire article linked above, but from what I saw it appeared to take a fairly objective view of the ACLU’s historical role and actions.

    Here’s a litmus test to find out how your personal views align with the ACLU….

    Scenario: a 37 year old unemployed man with two prior criminal convictions is arrested in connection with the killing of three preschoolers. While incarcerated pending formal charges, two police officers assigned to the case based on a hunch obtain from the defendant’s landlord the keys to his apartment and proceed to search the premises without a search warrant. During the search the police obtain irrefutable evidence which not only proves the defendant guilty of three homicides but ties him to two other killings as well. When formal charges are brought the State’s prosecutor attempts to introduce the evidence, not disclosing the manner in which it was obtained. The ACLU attorney defending the accused serial killer argues that the seizure of that evidence violates his client’s Fourth Amendment rights. The judge rules in favor of the defendant and absent its most convincing evidence the prosecutor is unable to convict and the accused killer walks.

    Was justice served? The ACLU would argue so. They do not, after all, defend individuals, they defend Constitutional principles and the legal process in an endeavor to ensure the law is applied equally to everyone.
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

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    Cyburbian TexanOkie's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Maister View post
    http://people.howstuffworks.com/aclu.htm

    I didn’t read the entire article linked above, but from what I saw it appeared to take a fairly objective view of the ACLU’s historical role and actions.

    Here’s a litmus test to find out how your personal views align with the ACLU….

    Scenario: a 37 year old unemployed man with two prior criminal convictions is arrested in connection with the killing of three preschoolers. While incarcerated pending formal charges, two police officers assigned to the case based on a hunch obtain from the defendant’s landlord the keys to his apartment and proceed to search the premises without a search warrant. During the search the police obtain irrefutable evidence which not only proves the defendant guilty of three homicides but ties him to two other killings as well. When formal charges are brought the State’s prosecutor attempts to introduce the evidence, not disclosing the manner in which it was obtained. The ACLU attorney defending the accused serial killer argues that the seizure of that evidence violates his client’s Fourth Amendment rights. The judge rules in favor of the defendant and absent its most convincing evidence the prosecutor is unable to convict and the accused killer walks.

    Was justice served? The ACLU would argue so. They do not, after all, defend individuals, they defend Constitutional principles and the legal process in an endeavor to ensure the law is applied equally to everyone.
    Is this test based on a real case?

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    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by TexanOkie View post
    Is this test based on a real case?
    Sounded pretty plausible with all the details, didn't it? I just made it up, though. But it's representative of the sort of things they tend to get involved in.
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

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    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Maister View post
    http://people.howstuffworks.com/aclu.htm

    I didn’t read the entire article linked above, but from what I saw it appeared to take a fairly objective view of the ACLU’s historical role and actions.

    Here’s a litmus test to find out how your personal views align with the ACLU….

    Scenario: a 37 year old unemployed man with two prior criminal convictions is arrested in connection with the killing of three preschoolers. While incarcerated pending formal charges, two police officers assigned to the case based on a hunch obtain from the defendant’s landlord the keys to his apartment and proceed to search the premises without a search warrant. During the search the police obtain irrefutable evidence which not only proves the defendant guilty of three homicides but ties him to two other killings as well. When formal charges are brought the State’s prosecutor attempts to introduce the evidence, not disclosing the manner in which it was obtained. The ACLU attorney defending the accused serial killer argues that the seizure of that evidence violates his client’s Fourth Amendment rights. The judge rules in favor of the defendant and absent its most convincing evidence the prosecutor is unable to convict and the accused killer walks.

    Was justice served? The ACLU would argue so. They do not, after all, defend individuals, they defend Constitutional principles and the legal process in an endeavor to ensure the law is applied equally to everyone.
    OK, I'll bite.

    Was justice served? No. Did the legal system act correctly? Yes. We are not a society in which the ends justify the means. If the judge ruled different, it would set precedent for illegal search and seziures.

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    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    OK, I'll bite.

    Was justice served? No. Did the legal system act correctly? Yes. We are not a society in which the ends justify the means. If the judge ruled different, it would set precedent for illegal search and seziures
    Aw, you're no fun - you saw right through my contrived scenario. Reality is never black and white and if there is a much-lauded virtue out there you may be certain it carries it's own sin. It doesn't matter how one answered when framed in this black and white manner - damned if you do and damned if you don't, because either you support keeping murderers in business or you support the promotion of a fascistic police state - take your pick!
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

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    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Maister View post
    Aw, you're no fun - you saw right through my contrived scenario. Reality is never black and white and if there is a much-lauded virtue out there you may be certain it carries it's own sin. It doesn't matter how one answered when framed in this black and white manner - damned if you do and damned if you don't, because either you support keeping murderers in business or you support the promotion of a fascistic police state - take your pick!
    I've always been a fan of ethical dilemmas.

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    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Very interesting question. I have never really understood the venom with which most of the right hates the ACLU.

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    Cyburbian
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    ZMAN

    you say you are becoming more Libertarian (left leaning). Libertarianism is a highly conserevative philosophy focused on indivdual liberties, personal responsibility, and exceedingly less government.

    I am not sure what left leaning libertariansim is?

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    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by gkmo62u View post
    ZMAN

    you say you are becoming more Libertarian (left leaning). Libertarianism is a highly conserevative philosophy focused on indivdual liberties, personal responsibility, and exceedingly less government.

    I am not sure what left leaning libertariansim is?
    It may be too limiting to define political orientations in terms of left and right or liberal and conservative. I seem to remember someone posting a FAC thread that had a 'what's you're political orientation' theme and it linked to a test you could take and placed your score on a graph. The X axis measured left and right political orientation and the Y axis measured government control (in other words complete libertarian to complete State authority). Does anyone else remember (or, better yet, can find it?) that thread/link?

    Well anyway, this type of graph is called a Nolan chart.
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

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    Corn Burning Fool giff57's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Maister View post
    Does anyone else remember (or, better yet, can find it?) that thread/link?

    Well anyway, this type of graph is called a Nolan chart.

    http://www.cyburbia.org/forums/showt...itical+compass
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    Cyburbian zman's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by gkmo62u View post
    ZMAN

    you say you are becoming more Libertarian (left leaning). Libertarianism is a highly conserevative philosophy focused on indivdual liberties, personal responsibility, and exceedingly less government.

    I am not sure what left leaning libertariansim is?
    It is very hard to explain. I'll try and tap some thoughts out on this subject when I get a moment.
    You get all squeezed up inside/Like the days were carved in stone/You get all wired up inside/And it's bad to be alone

    You can go out, you can take a ride/And when you get out on your own/You get all smoothed out inside/And it's good to be alone
    -Peart

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    Cyburbian statler's avatar
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    When the ACLU and Cyburbia meet:

    ACLU sues South Park over law on political signs

    The American Civil Liberties Union of Pennsylvania filed a lawsuit on Dr. Rudolph's behalf yesterday in the Western District of Pennsylvania in Pittsburgh, challenging a section of South Park's code that restricts the display of political signs in the township to 30 days before an election. That would mean Dr. Rudolph couldn't put up his sign until March 23, in advance of Pennsylvania's April 22 primaries.

    "Freedom of speech applies all year round," said Witold "Vic" Walczak, legal director of the ACLU of Pennsylvania, "not just 30 days before an election."
    "So, if a city has a personality, maybe it also has a soul. Maybe it dreams." -Gaiman
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    Cyburbian
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    I have given it a little thought as well. I guess what makes Libertarianism an interesting mix is the combination of a strong sense of individual liberties (which could be seen as a more "liberal" characteristic) with a strong anti-government, laissez fair sense.

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    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    This is why I dislike the ACLU. I think they can make an argument out of anything...

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_rel_piercing_church

    Iacono and her mother, Nikki, belong to the Church of Body Modification, a small group unfamiliar to rural North Carolina, but one with a clergy, a statement of beliefs and a formal process for accepting new members.

    It's enough to draw the interest of the state chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union, which has contacted school officials with concerns that the rights of the Iaconos are being violated by the suspension.
    I understand religious freedom... and I support that completely. I think this is where the ACLU gets lost. They are like personal injury lawyers. Sure they support some good, just causes. They do it because they care. But then there are some that just makes you go.... hot coffee...really?

    I don't know I guess I could start a religion that states what I do is okay (and probably tax exempt ) and argue that no one can stop me because it is freedom of religion. Not sure what I think about this... just annoyed...
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    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    A sham religion devised to circumvent public school dress policies? Now I've heard everything!

    This is an interesting situation. It comes down to defining what a religion/religious practice is and what is not. And this is one area that bureaucracies simply aren't designed to shine (and in case there was any doubt, the American legal system looks, acts, walks and talks like a bureaucracy). The moment one commits some definition to writing (i.e. through statutes or written decisions), an opportunity is created to 'play games' with the margins of those definitions - it's something quite familiar to planners.

    Based purely on gut feelings, the opening statement sums up my views on the Church of Body Modification's status as a religion. It certainly doesn't seem to share many characteristics of the bona fide cults and religions I'm familiar with.

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    Cyburbian Duke Of Dystopia's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hink_Planner View post
    .......
    I don't know I guess I could start a religion that states what I do is okay (and probably tax exempt ) and argue that no one can stop me because it is freedom of religion. .........
    Its called "Scientology"!
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    moderator in moderation Suburb Repairman's avatar
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    My two cents on the ACLU (as a card-carrying member for six years):

    ACLU has failed the most basic element of marketing and stragetic planning... allowing others to define them, rather than defining themselves. They do a piss-poor job of getting the word out of the good things they've done and are doing, instead allowing folks on both sides to misrepresent their actions.

    And like another said, any organization that pisses off both parties must be doing something right.

    "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

    - Herman Göring at the Nuremburg trials (thoughts on democracy)

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