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Thread: Environmental planning career development: beating the odds?

  1. #26
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    the '$100,000 planning education'

    I'm a first year student at Penn. One offhand thought:

    CC often begins with the assumption that an Ivy education is going to cost 4-5x as much as another education, perhaps at a state school. This is simply not my experience at Penn.

    Let's run the numbers. An out-of-state MUP at Portland State will cost around $17,000/year, inclusive of fees. The same figure at Penn is $40,000. The difference between these two over the course of a two year program is $46,000.

    At Penn, some of this difference will come in the form of loans, but not all. There are need-based grants, and Penn is very generous with merit-based grants as well. (My merit aid alone is $12k, and many of my classmates have similar awards.) Subtract that $12k and we're down to a $34,000 difference. Subtract the grants from the total need-based aid, and we're at a difference of below $30,000, sometimes much lower, for the two year period. If CC's math held, that $30,000 figure would be about twice as high.

    There's no question that Penn is more expensive. But a "$100,000 planning degree," as CC is fond of discussing, is way off the mark. (Not to mention the benefits of living in a place with a low COL, like Philadelphia.) In addition, the single greatest expense of full-time grad school is the lost income from not being a full-time employee. Compared to that, a $15k/year difference is relatively minor.

    Whether a place like Penn is worth the extra 15k/year is the subject for a different post (I believe it is, but there are arguments on both sides.) But the actual difference is less than you might think.

  2. #27
    Quote Originally posted by Vanderlyn View post
    I'm a first year student at Penn. One offhand thought:

    CC often begins with the assumption that an Ivy education is going to cost 4-5x as much as another education, perhaps at a state school. This is simply not my experience at Penn.

    Let's run the numbers. An out-of-state MUP at Portland State will cost around $17,000/year, inclusive of fees. The same figure at Penn is $40,000. The difference between these two over the course of a two year program is $46,000.
    Thanks for running those numbers. As you pointed out, even the difference between Portland State and Penn is big enough to warrant serious thought. Forty-six grand is a lot to pay back (or thirty with grants). But while we're just comparing university by university, I'd like to point out that I paid less than $6,000 a year at Cal Poly SLO.

    And have I ever said paying a lot of money at an expensive university was never worth it? Nope. I just said that doing so for a planning degree was ridiculous, because there are no lucrative planning careers out there. Lucrative management careers, sure. But not planning. Also, we are all a part of the same industry, and there is simply no advantage in paying a lot of money for the privilege of being part of that industry. What matters is individual ability, character, and steadfastness. That's the only reason why I'm so emphatic about this.

    After you sever your umbilical cord from academia, you'll realize that no one really cares what university you came from, or what you did in school.

  3. #28
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    the 46k question

    Quote Originally posted by chocolatechip View post
    And have I ever said paying a lot of money at an expensive university was never worth it? Nope. I just said that doing so for a planning degree was ridiculous, because there are no lucrative planning careers out there. Lucrative management careers, sure. But not planning. Also, we are all a part of the same industry, and there is simply no advantage in paying a lot of money for the privilege of being part of that industry.
    One could argue that the $30k premium for a planning degree from Penn is merited by the additional options one has to enter more remunerative allied professions. I'm thinking real estate, economic consulting, economic development and so on. And this isn't pie in the sky; many graduates from the program have entered these fields in recent years (and did so after paying tuition FAR less than Wharton's 70k/year).

  4. #29
    Cyburbian Raf's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Vanderlyn View post
    And this isn't pie in the sky; many graduates from the program have entered these fields in recent years (and did so after paying tuition FAR less than Wharton's 70k/year).
    Key word recent years. What is recent? Pre 2007? Sure i believe it. 2008 and on, hardly.
    Men do dumb $hit... it is what they do to correct the problem that counts.

  5. #30
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    2009 graduates

    Here are some non-planning positions secured by 2009 graduates of the city planning program:

    Bipartisan†Policy†Center,†Senior†Policy†Analyst,†Washington,†DC†
    Brookings†Institution,†Washington,†DC†
    Bureau†of†Governmental†Research,†Research†Analyst,†New†Orleans,†LA†
    Chunguk†Engineering†Company,†Vice†President,†Seoul,†Korea†
    NCB†Capital†Impact,†Loan†Associate,†Arlington,†VA†
    Pennrose†Properties,†Associate†Development†Officer,†Philadelphia,†PA†
    ProCapital†Partners,†Business†Analyst,†Philadelphia,†PA†
    The†Reinvestment†Fund,†Associate,†Philadelphia,†PA†
    Urbane†Development,†LLC,†Associate,†Philadelphia,†PA†
    Economy†League†of†Greater†Philadelphia,†Project†Manager,†Philadelphia,†PA†

  6. #31
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    In reading these posts, and having gone to an Ivy League undergrad (which was disappointing in the emphasis on ideology and theory - but then again I was an ignorant undergrad and didn't know how to ignore this aspect of it), then going into an MA at a lesser known, affordable school where I failed to develop a strong alumni network (ours was a small public policy program of diverse interests attached to a mid-level PhD program). I would say probably people's experience will vary as to the level of value they see in a name-brand school. Some will find the program's connections opened doors for them, others may not or may have come from a "regular" school and proven themselves on the job.

    I would say go to a school that affords you the resources and connections to get where you want to go. This does not have to be an Ivy League, it could equally be Portland State or U Washington - i.e. very well respected planning schools. I took courses at UW and the projects some of the students were doing were cutting edge methodologies that could set them up for a career in consulting, helped by the ability to engage with planning going on in Seattle. It sounds like your goal is "beating the odds" and not ending up in an unsatisfying job - good luck to you!

  7. #32
    Cyburbian Raf's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Vanderlyn View post
    Here are some non-planning positions secured by 2009 graduates of the city planning program:

    Bipartisan†Policy†Center,†Senior†Policy†Analyst,†Washington,†DC†
    Brookings†Institution,†Washington,†DC†
    Bureau†of†Governmental†Research,†Research†Analyst,†New†Orleans,†LA†
    Chunguk†Engineering†Company,†Vice†President,†Seoul,†Korea†
    NCB†Capital†Impact,†Loan†Associate,†Arlington,†VA†
    Pennrose†Properties,†Associate†Development†Officer,†Philadelphia,†PA†
    ProCapital†Partners,†Business†Analyst,†Philadelphia,†PA†
    The†Reinvestment†Fund,†Associate,†Philadelphia,†PA†
    Urbane†Development,†LLC,†Associate,†Philadelphia,†PA†
    Economy†League†of†Greater†Philadelphia,†Project†Manager,†Philadelphia,†PA†
    To which none of these seem like what the OP wants to end up in. I am not advocating not going after a master's degree (and i don't have one btw) just simply not going broke for a degree. As CC has mentioned, no one really gives a rip where you got your degree in the end. You work history, portfolio, play more into hiring then graduating from fill in the blank univ.
    Men do dumb $hit... it is what they do to correct the problem that counts.

  8. #33
    Quote Originally posted by Vanderlyn View post
    Here are some non-planning positions secured by 2009 graduates of the city planning program:

    Bipartisan†Policy†Center,†Senior†Policy†Analyst,†Washington,†DC†
    Brookings†Institution,†Washington,†DC†
    Bureau†of†Governmental†Research,†Research†Analyst,†New†Orleans,†LA†
    Chunguk†Engineering†Company,†Vice†President,†Seoul,†Korea†
    NCB†Capital†Impact,†Loan†Associate,†Arlington,†VA†
    Pennrose†Properties,†Associate†Development†Officer,†Philadelphia,†PA†
    ProCapital†Partners,†Business†Analyst,†Philadelphia,†PA†
    The†Reinvestment†Fund,†Associate,†Philadelphia,†PA†
    Urbane†Development,†LLC,†Associate,†Philadelphia,†PA†
    Economy†League†of†Greater†Philadelphia,†Project†Manager,†Philadelphia,†PA†
    Most of those are think-tanks or housing advocacy/grant-seeking groups, with two or three real estate firms. Again, while I'm sure these are great jobs, I fail to see the big lucrative careers waiting for everyone with an Ivy League degree in hand. Most of these are going to be low to mid-level analyst positions, and probably do not pay any more than a "regular" planning job in the same metropolitan area.

    Furthermore, while I generally agree with docwatson, I wouldn't just say that either 1) your academic program opens doors for you or 2) you prove yourself on the job, and either one of those routes will lead to success. Rather you WILL have to prove yourself on the job, regardless of how great your alumni network is.

    Undergrad and grad school may provide you with some momentum, but it only lasts so long. You need to churn your own talents and build your own network beyond the safe realm of school. It's the ones who don't learn this that end up gravitating back to school again, like they haven't really learned how to take the bull by the horns and get themselves out there. It also takes them longer to break out of the entry-level job rut, and then they start thinking maybe the problem is they need more education. So they think about grad school, or some other degree or training that they think will get them to where they know they need to be by the age of 26, 28, 30, etc.

  9. #34
    This discussion has been very helpful!! I'm looking to apply for grad school next year and am trying to decide between Econ Dev, Planning, MBA, or some sort of "Sustainable Urban Development" degree of sorts. If an angel floated down with wads of cash or scholarships I'd love to do a couple of those...

    Admittedly without any experience in planning, I'd like to respond to the discussion with my own experience with a degree from a top school.

    I went to an internationally acclaimed school (tho its broke and quickly dropping in the ranks) and studied a discipline in which the only logical next step is grad school either to be a professor (no jobs!) or a priest (no thanks!). So basically I paid a ton for an impractical degree (and yes, as vanderlyn pointed out, a ton does not mean full price tag...grants/scholarships/loans are almost always involved in the pricey schools) BUT I have always been able to find a job.

    A degree from a top school, like it or not, gets you places. It opens up a world that you wouldn't have had access to otherwise--of new fields, networking, and access. And it is something I didnt actually appreciate until I encountered it. I studied theology--THEOLOGY, the study of God--and had jobs on this side of salvation handed to me. I don't have a masters and I am TERRIBLE at interviewing. I graduated in May '08, so many of my friends (at other schools) did not find jobs, and some only found full-time jobs they were interested in in the past few months, while I was turning jobs down. But I also have a broad interest.

    If you really want to do straight planning--in a position called "City Plannning Project Manager" the degree from the better school may only give you an extra glance over the other nu-b from XY State for a job that pays little. But if you are more interested in the type of work and skills you'll develop and look at other employment opportunities, like in a Int'l Dev group or consulting or advocacy--or whatever interests you--you will probably find more job opportunities at higher salaries.

    But you have to decide what type of career you want, and what type of name you want. I actually regret paying for my degree. I think its ridiculous the system we have, especially undergraduate, and it is inconsistent with my personal values to have paid as much as i did for my degree. I hate that my access to jobs and opportunities came from the university I went to. (although i got my current job from my previous work experience) If you already have one degree from Penn, you may not need another...if you are just deciding on what concentration to do, look at job postings, talk to alumni, go to the career center, etc. to see if there are careers that interest you. Those resources of the university ARE what you are paying for after all. Vanderlyn, the list you posted piqued my interest. Get the hard skills, and then you can use your degree for jobs specific to the degree, and jobs that more generally want a masters that shows you are hard working and competent (where the name of the institution may come in handy).

    Now my question is: would a dual degree (ie econ and MUP, or MBA/MUP) open doors to any jobs that require a knowledge base of planning issues and concepts but that are based in management or economics? Anyone familiar with anything like that? I'm trying to justify applying for that angel...

  10. #35
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    Furthermore, while I generally agree with docwatson, I wouldn't just say that either 1) your academic program opens doors for you or 2) you prove yourself on the job, and either one of those routes will lead to success. Rather you WILL have to prove yourself on the job, regardless of how great your alumni network is.
    Sorry if this made it sound as if you don't need to prove yourself if you have the degree - not what I intended at all.

    Rather, what I mean to say is grad school can help you launch your career, and that I would advise thinking of it in terms of what you really want to do and if the school you are looking at affords you the opportunity to both learn what you want and get your foot in the door in the types of areas you want to work in. I my case I went into grad school still not knwoing what I wanted, passed on Georgetown for a more affordable program which hasn't opened many doors (in large part b/c our limitted almuni work in such disparate areas of policy and advocacy). Had I known I would end up in Planning I probably would've gone for PSU, UO, UW, or UBC.

    So its more about checking out the particular program, the quality of learning it affords, and its links to the "real world" and to its region, rather than about the name of the larger school. Portland State, for example, is a run-of-the mill commuter school for undergrads, but has a top planning program doing innovative things, in my estimation, and is linked to a great place to get a foot in the door in planning, at least in the areas I am interested in.

  11. #36
    Cyburbian ColoGI's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by docwatson View post
    I would say go to a school that affords you the resources and connections to get where you want to go. This does not have to be an Ivy League, it could equally be Portland State or U Washington - i.e. very well respected planning schools. I took courses at UW and the projects some of the students were doing were cutting edge methodologies that could set them up for a career in consulting, helped by the ability to engage with planning going on in Seattle. It sounds like your goal is "beating the odds" and not ending up in an unsatisfying job - good luck to you!
    This UW grad sez they're cutting positions in Seattle area too. Just heard about layoffs there.

    IMHO in this profession 'big name school' doesn't mean much, esp these days.

    But the education and contacts you get at places like UW, UBC, PSU - now that I can agree with. And IN STATE tuition is much cheaper. The names themselves don't mean that much. I second what PSU is doing with a "small school" name. Hi, Vivek!

  12. #37

    Hi guys,,update....

    OK, after careful consideration, I have decided that if I take the option at Penn that I will concentrate in Environmental Geology and GIS. I want to take the most technical road the degree has to offer considering the massive load debt that school will cost me.

    I also applied to another school for an MPA; Master of Public Administration with a specialization in Urban Policy where you take Urban planning courses.

    Which one seems more lucrative in this turbulent economy?

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally posted by manoverde84 View post
    OK, after careful consideration, I have decided that if I take the option at Penn that I will concentrate in Environmental Geology and GIS. I want to take the most technical road the degree has to offer considering the massive load debt that school will cost me.

    I also applied to another school for an MPA; Master of Public Administration with a specialization in Urban Policy where you take Urban planning courses.

    Which one seems more lucrative in this turbulent economy?
    In reading this post, I can't help thinking you may be approaching the question from the wrong angle. Echoing what many posters here have said, it is hard to predict if a certain degree will land you a lucrative job, because the level of "lucrative-ness" will depend on proving yourself in your career, either through selling strategic thinking or technical skills, or thru advancing into a leadership position. So between these two programs, the question you might ask yourself is, do you want to be more technically oriented, work with GIS, environmental sciences; or do you want to pursue policy and urban management. I don't know that its a simple question as for myself I could think of both interesting and not so appealing jobs in either area, within my career interests of the non-profit sector, consulting, technical assistance, revitalization and/or working with students, community, etc. A degree can be a springboard but shouldn't necessarily lock you in. Personality and aptitude assessments from a career or college counselor (or off-the-shelf) might be helpful in assessing where you want to be.

    As for lucrative, I don't particularly enjoy my job now, and the salary doesn't quite make up for it; but if I liked what I did, the salary would be more than enough. Some will tell you it's naive to think about satisfaction rather than money, but as one moves beyond school to the work world, I think you'll find it's critical.

  14. #39

    thanks....

    I would accommodate each degree to fit my interests so I woudn't be stuck in a job I hated. I know that is unavoidable sometimes but I think that I can probably do enough to gain experience in each degree to pursue a path.

    I wouldn't mind doing either. I love hydro-geology and hydrology, so I can develop a focus there.

    The MPA is really up my alley with the curriculum involved.

    So I would be satisfied with earning either degree.

    The question amounts to debt vs. job to pay off the debt.

    Penn's debt would be high, NorthWestern, not so much.

    Penn seems more practical and technical so I figured it would in the end pay itself off.

    The MPA seems to lean more toward my particular interests but I am afraid of the job market.

    I was just wondering if the Penn was program was worth it. If not I would do the MPA and not worry so much about pay.

  15. #40
    Cyburbian
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    I am going to apologize beforehand and with all due respect, call you an idiot. ChocolateChip is very much on target. Listen to him.

    What you want to do is not planning, yet youíre asking about doing a planning degree? Even worse youíre contemplating taking out enormous debt for a degree you arenít really even interested in?

    Weíre not talking about buying one shirt versus another shirt. At the end of the day you can still wear either shirt. This is a graduate degree for which you will be paying off substantial loans for possibly even decades to come.

    Planning suffers from behing overhyped these days and the main beneficiaries of the hype have been the expensive/Ivy planning programs. The sad reality is that 90% of planning jobs out there are for public sector planning in a local government office in a county somewhere in the US. Yet all this hype has people believing youíll be doing creative urban design masterplans for regenerating a distressed community, working in a fab office in Manhattan and live the young hip lifestyle as appropriate for someone in a ďcoolĒ field.

    Blink blink.

    Yep. Right.

    The reality: Starting in the low $40k for a public planning position or a non profit research/analyst position in a very high COL area such as DC or New York or Boston. Roommates until youíre in your 30s. Crappy old Honda civic. Rarely being able to afford to dine out, travel, buy nice clothes and so forth because of the crippling debt load. At the office? Reviewing zoning documents. Dealing with politicans and irate citizens. Taking 5+ years to complete a simple community masterplan because of political intereference.

    The reality is whatís hit the faces of too many expensive/Ivy planning graduates like a unwelcome ton of bricks. Too many bright young things come out of expensive/prestigious undergraduate universities, decide law/medicine/consulting/business is too boring and see planning as a creative possibility that sounds alluring and seems to have all these fascinating possibilities. After all, thereís these hip young planners wearing thick black glasses in living in lofts in Brooklyn, right? Itís gotta be cool! Much more so than law school.

    So, since they went to a fancy undergraduate, they apply for the fancy planning schools. Who cares about the debt? All your friends from your alma mater are also taking on debt to go to law and medical schools. Youíre equal as students.

    But flash forward five years. The Penn JD is making $200K, has paid off all her debt and is now buying her first nice house or condo and is putting her babyís name down on waiting lists for private schools. The Penn planner? Ha! Debt, debt, debt. Shitty apartment, roommates.

    Iíll concede here that I initially made the mistake of going to Penn. I didnít know what I wanted to do, I was too lazy to face the prospects of law or going straight into the real world. Penn to its credit gave me quite a lot of merit money and I got a resident advisory position in the undergraduate dorms that covered my living expenses, so I thankfully graduated with less than $20K in debt. I did enjoy being a student at Penn and Philadelphia is a great city. But once I got a taste of the real world post graduation and realized what a planning careeer actually meant, I bailed out as soon as possible. My corporate gig isnít as interesting as a private planning job or comfortably boring as a public planning job but the money is far, far better and itís given me a great deal more freedom in what I can do with my life than working as a planner. Iím only 30 years old but I make the same income as the 60 year old director of planning at a prosperous suburban county outside DC makesÖ.meanwhile too many of my Penn fellow students are struggling at mediocre jobs making no money. The brighter of us have long since left the industry completely for this reason.

    One last bit of advice for you: itís simply wrong to think there isnít much of a difference between $40K and $55K. Itís ďonlyĒ 15,000, right? Wrong. Itís an extra $15K off your loans in a year, itís the money that allows you to travel, buy nicer clothes, put away towards a down payment. Itís a lot of money and makes far more of a difference at that level than it does to someone making $150K.


    Quote Originally posted by manoverde84 View post
    I would accommodate each degree to fit my interests so I woudn't be stuck in a job I hated. I know that is unavoidable sometimes but I think that I can probably do enough to gain experience in each degree to pursue a path.

    I wouldn't mind doing either. I love hydro-geology and hydrology, so I can develop a focus there.

    The MPA is really up my alley with the curriculum involved.

    So I would be satisfied with earning either degree.

    The question amounts to debt vs. job to pay off the debt.

    Penn's debt would be high, NorthWestern, not so much.

    Penn seems more practical and technical so I figured it would in the end pay itself off.

    The MPA seems to lean more toward my particular interests but I am afraid of the job market.

    I was just wondering if the Penn was program was worth it. If not I would do the MPA and not worry so much about pay.

  16. #41
    Cyburbian Raf's avatar
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    I am just going to throw this out there, but making gobs of money doesn't make one happy. I love planning. Yea I am lower middle Class. Yea I probably won't own a home until my wife starts her career 5 years from now, but I have been through the rigorous of the private sector and the creative side of planning. I am doing the more technical side in the public sector. I love my profession, and I can honestly say while there are bad days and projects I can say I chose the right profession for me.

    Would I go broke for an education in this profession? No. Will you make money? Not really. Before students shell out a ton of money for this profession, they should think long and hard about what it is really about. Honestly I don't do this for the money. I do it because I love the urban form and frabric and how politics can interweave in the whole process.
    Men do dumb $hit... it is what they do to correct the problem that counts.

  17. #42

    PennPlanner has slapped me with some reality....

    Cold, Cold, Cold water there PennPlanner

    But you have seriously nailed me down as far as the typical top school kid who doesn't want to go to B-School or study for the LSATs to get into UMich Law, LOL, Rutgers if I'm lucky.

    So yes I thought Planning would be a creative substitute and thought that since the JDs were also taking out debt that I would be in the same boat career wise coming out.

    Everything you said was spot on.

    I have nixed any plans to go into Urban Planning.

    I am just focusing on a technical/practical career in Applied Geoscience now at Penn.

    If I hear back from Northwestern as far as more aid, I may choose the MPA they offer with a Health Care Policy and Administration specialization.

    These are sort of my new choices.

    I still want to go to Penn though. I hope it works out.

    No worries about the idiot comment. I guess I was just the proto-typical naive wannabe Planner.

    BTW, what field are you in now?

  18. #43
    Before I rule out planning all together, is Environmental Planning still an OK field to get into?

    If I have all the science background and GIS, would that pay off?

  19. #44
    Cyburbian
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    But once I got a taste of the real world post graduation and realized what a planning careeer actually meant, I bailed out as soon as possible. My corporate gig isnít as interesting as a private planning job or comfortably boring as a public planning job but the money is far, far better and itís given me a great deal more freedom in what I can do with my life than working as a planner. Iím only 30 years old but I make the same income as the 60 year old director of planning at a prosperous suburban county outside DC makesÖ.meanwhile too many of my Penn fellow students are struggling at mediocre jobs making no money. The brighter of us have long since left the industry completely for this reason.

    One last bit of advice for you: itís simply wrong to think there isnít much of a difference between $40K and $55K. Itís ďonlyĒ 15,000, right? Wrong. Itís an extra $15K off your loans in a year, itís the money that allows you to travel, buy nicer clothes, put away towards a down payment. Itís a lot of money and makes far more of a difference at that level than it does to someone making $150K.[/QUOTE]

    I agree. Fortunately I was able to work for a few years and enjoy doing planning for planning sake (and I will probably keep on doing it as a volunteer). As others have echoed it's next to impossible to live the kind of life that the media or professors promote. BTW, master plans are mostly done by worse-paid landscape designers not planners. Even if you DO make it big as a planning director, chances are it's only for a few years, maybe a decade at the most. No matter how high up you are on the consulting side you live and die by each contract, which means constantly having to prove yourself to the client. Well that can get very tiring after 10,20,30 years.

    I don't think most students understand how debt is paid off until they are working and supporting themselves. It takes a long time, and don't forget about compounding interest. You could spend almost 5-6 months every year paying off the accrued interest before you actually start chipping away at the debt itself. If you equate the amount of planning debt to ROI get out of the profession fast. Personally, I don't care how big an Ivy League alum association is, if it can't help me get the right job I want out of school then why enroll? Nothing is chiseled in stone except for the price tag.
    "This is great, honey. What's the crunchy stuff?"
    "M&Ms. I ran out of paprika."

    Family Guy

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