Urban planning community

+ Reply to thread
Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: Sail banners/signs?

  1. #1
    Cyburbian
    Registered
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    202

    Sail banners/signs?

    Yes I spelled it correctly. It seems as though I cannot escape sign ordinance updates/revisions/changes. We have quite a few retail tenants throughout my fair city that has erected a form of temporary sign known in the industry as sail banners or sail signs. I would like to rope these in with our temporary sign provision but have no idea how to clearly define them without calling them a flag (yet another can of worms I was directed to steer clear of) or banner (already defined). For those who haven't seen them here is an illustration (maybe)



    http://www.signaramaskokie.com/image...abd21-575.jpeg
    **Disclaimer, this Applebees is not within my city and I do not portray it as such**

    If you have a clear definition or can develop one please let me know, I've thought about this for the better part of this week and am tired of thinking about it.

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Cyburbian HomerJ's avatar
    Registered
    Dec 2010
    Location
    I'm gettin' there
    Posts
    937
    Can you be a little more specific on the problem with identifying these as flag signs. I have to deal with the same signs but they haven't been too much of a nuisance.... yet.

    Otherwise, I suppose you could just add a new category, "sail signs", to your ordinance. Although I don't think I've ever seen that before and I don't know how you would be able to describe anything much different from what you have designated as a flag sign.
    Last edited by HomerJ; 20 May 2011 at 11:30 AM.
    Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.

  3. #3
    Cyburbian
    Registered
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    202
    Homer,

    I have a section of our code specifically dedicated to temporary signs, of which banners are defined and are only allowed when attached to the facade of the building. Therefore calling this type of temporary sign a banner is counter productive since it is free standing. I hesitate to call it a flag since our definition of flag is balancing on the content regulation fine line. Thus I am in need of a clear definition of this type of sign to be included as an approved form of temporary sign.

    The definition of flag that we are using is, "any fabric, banner or bunting containing distinctive colors, patterns or symbols, used as a symbol of a government or political subdivision."

    This definition I'm working with for this type of sign is, "means a piece of cloth, varying in size, shape, color, and design, usually attached at one edge to a staff or cord, and used as a means of conveying a message."

  4. #4
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
    Registered
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hang on Sloopy...land
    Posts
    9,927
    We consider these signs. As long as your definition clearly states commercial messages, there should be no trouble permitting (or banning as we have done) such signs.

    Put them into the temporary section and limit the setbacks, height, and square footage as you would any other temporary sign. You can call them flags, sails, whatever, but in the end they have a commercial message on them. Start with strengthening your definition of commercial message.
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  5. #5
    Cyburbian Raf's avatar
    Registered
    Feb 2007
    Location
    America's Happiest City
    Posts
    5,019
    We have defined sail signs as "banner signs".

    (e) Banner. Any sign of lightweight fabric or similar material that is attached to a building or other structure erected for another purpose. Flags, as defined in this section, shall not be considered banners.

    (p) Flag. A device, generally made of flexible materials, usually cloth, paper or plastic, usually used as a symbol of a government, school, or religion, and not containing a commercial message.

    Our regulation:

    (13) Banner or Temporary Signs. Constructed from nonpermanent material, (e.g. paper, canvas, vinyl, etc.).
    (i) Maximum Number and Area. Each business may have one (1) banner sign per public street frontage, with a maximum area of forty (40) square feet.
    (ii) Limits on Time Displayed. Temporary signs may be in place for a maximum of thirty (30) days. All banners must be down a minimum of sixty (60) days before any new banner may go up. Banners may remain up during the entire permanent sign permit process.
    (iii) Placement. Banners must be secured flat against a building or secure structure.

    As you can see. They aren't attached, so they are not allowed. Alas, they are making my muni look like a freakin rummage sale. I encourage residents if they don't like the look to turn in the perps so that government can turn fear into the offenders.
    Men do dumb $hit... it is what they do to correct the problem that counts.

  6. #6
    Cyburbian Otis's avatar
    Registered
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Upper left edge
    Posts
    3,851
    We have the problem in Oregon, which has probably the most libertarian free speech protections in the country (that is not intended as a criticism, but as a description), that if we exempt flags from the sign code, we have to exempt ALL flags. If we allow the US flag, the reasoning goes, why would we not allow any other flag, since it would be identical in its impact. One of our local pron shops tried to lure us into a lawsuit by putting up, on a flag pole, a flag advertising the shop. We didn't fall for it.

    So we have to treat these "sail banners" differently. We have not done so yet and are contemplating what to do. I am interested in seeing what suggestions others have. I have been thinking about calling them as "Feather banners" and defining them by their appearance and construction, and them putting whatever restrictions on them that the council wants. Time will tell if they want any restrictions at all.

    As an aside, most of these in Otisville are being put up in the public right-of-way, which is illegal.

  7. #7
    Cyburbian
    Registered
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    202
    We're having to remove all content regulations on signage, thus no definition of commercial message. If you have to read the sign to determine what it is then that is considered content regulation.

    Here is what we are going with:
    "Banner" means a temporary sign of lightweight fabric, plastic or similar material designed to be hung either with or without a frame or other structure, with characters, letters, illustrations or ornamentation. National flags, state and municipal flags, and official flags of businesses, institutions or other organizations shall not be considered banners.
    "Flag" means any fabric banner or bunting containing distinctive colors, patterns or symbols, used as a symbol of a government or political subdivision.
    “Sail sign” means a piece of cloth, varying in size, shape, color, and design, attached at one edge to a staff or cord for the entire vertical length of the cloth, and used as a means of conveying a message.


    Temporary signs requiring permit.
    A. The following type of temporary signs may be displayed in the CR, NM, TCR and TCM zoning districts upon the issuance of a temporary sign permit from the building official or his designee:
    Banners. A maximum of twelve (12) square feet of banner sign is permissible for the location subject to the temporary sign permit and all banners shall be attached exclusively to the building façade facing a public street. No banner shall be free standing nor be attached to a utility pole, light pole, bollard, fence or vehicle and shall not exceed the tenant or building frontage, whichever is less.
    B. The following types of temporary signs may be displayed in the CM, M-1 and M-2 zoning districts upon the issuance of a temporary sign permit from the building official or his designee:
    1. One inflatable advertising device per tenant less than thirty-five (35) feet in height;
    2. Banners. A maximum of twenty-four (24) square feet of banner sign(s) are permissible for the location subject to the temporary sign permit and all banners shall be attached exclusively to the building façade facing a public street. No banner shall be free standing nor be attached to a utility pole, light pole, bollard, fence or vehicle and shall not exceed the tenant or building frontage, whichever is less.
    3. Sail Signs. A maximum of twenty-four (24) square feet of free standing sail signs are permitted for each tenant. No such sail sign shall exceed twelve (12) feet in height.
    C. No more than five temporary sign permits shall be authorized per calendar year for the same location and tenant.
    D. A temporary sign permit shall be valid for no more than thirty (30) consecutive days.

  8. #8
    Cyburbian
    Registered
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Somewhere far, far away
    Posts
    88
    I don't have the ordinance right in front of me, but in the last town in which I worked, we had an outright ban on signs that moved. (U.S., state, and city flags were exempted.) This ordinance took care of both sail banners and those annoying inflatable men whose arms flail about all day. This ban provided the basis for the eventual ban of changing LED signs.

  9. #9
    Cyburbian HomerJ's avatar
    Registered
    Dec 2010
    Location
    I'm gettin' there
    Posts
    937
    I agree with what Hink and others are saying. Another point for consideration, our ordinance is fairly strict about stating that temporary signs MUST be attached to a permanent structure. Still, I wish we were more strict about enforcing this...
    Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.

  10. #10
    Cyburbian Raf's avatar
    Registered
    Feb 2007
    Location
    America's Happiest City
    Posts
    5,019
    Honestly, it is these type of signs that make communities look like a daily rummage sale.
    Men do dumb $hit... it is what they do to correct the problem that counts.

  11. #11
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
    Registered
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hang on Sloopy...land
    Posts
    9,927
    Quote Originally posted by shell_waster View post
    We're having to remove all content regulations on signage, thus no definition of commercial message. If you have to read the sign to determine what it is then that is considered content regulation.
    This confuses me. It is my understanding that we have the ability to differentiate between commercial and non-commercial. Maybe that is just in Ohio. I agree on content neutral, but I thought that commercial messages were different. Maybe I am wrong.

    From our code:
    A pennant, poster display, banner or
    illustration which is affixed to or painted
    upon or represented directly or indirectly
    upon a building, structure or piece of land
    for a temporary period of time and which
    displays a non-commercial message, or as
    permitted by the district in which the sign is
    located, directs attention to an object,
    product, place, person, institution,
    organization or business and is constructed of
    cloth, canvas, plastic sheet, cardboard or
    other like materials.
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  12. #12
    Cyburbian
    Registered
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    202
    Hink,

    I apologize for my confusion, I'm on cold medication and not thinking clearly. You are correct, my understanding is sign codes can differentiate between commercial and non-commercial however where you allow one you must allow the other. Although I have recently spoken with some attorneys who would believe it to be unconstitutional to differentiate between to the distinctions.

    Our ordinance states:
    "It shall be unlawful for any person to erect, construct, enlarge, move, alter, or convert any sign or cause the same to be done within the City except in accordance with the provisions of this Ordinance.
    Non-commercial speech protected under the First Amendment of the United States Constitution and the Constitution of the State of Georgia shall be regulated by this Chapter only as to the size of signage containing such speech, the numerosity of such signs, and such other reasonable time, place and manner, restrictions as set forth in this Chapter. Any sign or structure used solely for the purpose of displaying a protected non-commercial message or protected non-commercial speech is exempt from all other aspects of this Chapter. Except, however, all sign structures shall remain subject to the provisions of the City Zoning Ordinance, Building Codes and other related laws.
    Protected non-commercial speech shall be permitted in any place commercial speech is permitted under this Ordinance. Any sign provided for in any zoning district may contain non-commercial messages. To the extent any conflict arises between this provision and any other language found in this Chapter, this provision shall control.
    Any sign or structure erected for the purpose of displaying a protected non-commercial message or protected non-commercial speech shall not be used for a commercial message or commercial speech unless such sign or structure is erected in conformance with all requirements of this Ordinance and has received a sign permit.
    For purposes of this Chapter, a “non-commercial message” or “non-commercial speech” shall mean any message or speech that does not meet the definition of “commercial message or commercial sign” as set forth in Section 16.48.030 of this Chapter. Nothing herein shall be construed to permit display of any message which is obscene, illegal or speech which is otherwise unprotected under the First Amendment of the United States Constitution. Nothing herein shall be construed to prohibit a prosecution for violation of a criminal statute by the city or other duly constituted government authority or a civil action by the City or other private person or entity."

    “Commercial message or Commercial sign” means any sign, wording, logo, or other visual representation that directly or indirectly identifies, names, advertises, or directs attention to a business operated for profit, or to a product, commodity, commercial interest or activity, or is otherwise intended to induce the purchase of goods, commodities, products, property or services.

  13. #13
    Member
    Registered
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    8
    We are defining these types of signs as "tear drop, blade banners, vertical banners" under temporary signs allowed with a permit in non-residential areas.

    Besides not being allowed within the ROW, we will be limiting the number of said signs as well not allowing the use of BOTH the blade banner AND a standard banner, the business can have one or the other. Maximum height is noted as well as limits on location (not allowed offsite).

    Good Luck!

  14. #14
    Member
    Registered
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Edwardsville, IL
    Posts
    17
    Almost three years late to this discussion, but very helpful! We're dealing with the same issues now. Thank you!

+ Reply to thread

More at Cyburbia

  1. Sponsorship programs for community banners
    Economic and Community Development
    Replies: 5
    Last post: 04 Jan 2011, 1:38 PM
  2. Replies: 11
    Last post: 13 Aug 2009, 2:28 PM
  3. Light pole banners sponsored by private business?
    Economic and Community Development
    Replies: 10
    Last post: 15 Oct 2008, 10:06 PM
  4. Downtown banners, municipal lightposts and wind load
    Economic and Community Development
    Replies: 3
    Last post: 17 Mar 2008, 1:02 PM
  5. Replies: 8
    Last post: 03 Dec 2004, 4:50 PM