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Thread: Ask Dan about Ithaca

  1. #26
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner View post
    It seems you're always showing downtown Ithaca and the crunchy part of Ithaca. Is there any big-box development on the outskirts of town, large industry, warehouses? Dare I say...sprawling subdivisions? I could look on Google Earth, but I'm too lazy and I like your perspective on things.
    Elmira Road. It's still in the city limits, and not really that far from downtown. Walmart, Kmart, Home Depot, Lowe's, Wegmans, Tops, Kohl's, PetSmart, Staples, several auto dealerships, and a bunch of smaller power centers and strip plazas. The City of Ithaca doesn't have architectural standards, so the strip doesn't resemble what one might normally see in a "progressive" community. It's not like something you would see in Texas, with billboards and high rise signs everywhere, but it's not polished, landscaped and uber-regulated like 28th Street in Boulder, South College Avenue in Fort Collins, or Broad Street in SLO either. Despite it's reputation as a progressive blue state, New York is about 30 to 40 years behind the curve when it comes to contemporary land use planning and zoning.

    There's surprisingly little commercial development outside of the city. A smallish 1970s-era mall in Lansing is probably the most notable, but there's not much around it.

    You don't see the "crunchy" crowd on Elmira Road too often, except at Wegmans. Elmira Road tends to draw shoppers from outlying rural areas.

    Sprawling subdivisions: yeah, they're there. Suburban Ithaca has a problem with "missing middle" development; lots of single-family large-lot development, lots of subsidized low-density suburban-style apartment complexes for low/mod income households, and almost nothing in the middle. Thus, long-distance commuting for many.

    Some here believe that sprawling development is actually better for the environment, because there's less impervious surface and more vegetation over a larger area. In promoting traditional neighborhood development and smart growth, it's the green crowd I'm worried about dealing with, believe it or not.

    New York's environmental laws (SEQR, NYS Stormwater Management Design Manual, etc) makes dense suburban development more difficult than what's feasible in other parts of the country, because a parcel developed at 8-10 du/ac will have a greater impact on stormwater runoff, traffic, tree canopy coverage, and so on than the 1-2 du/ac that's more typical, at least for that parcel. State environmental regs don't take a very holistic approach, IMHO.
    Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

  2. #27
    Cyburbian Mud Princess's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dan View post
    Ithaca has the same dynamics as many college towns; too many overeducated people, and not enough jobs. A major consideration of prospective Cornell and IC staff is whether their spouses can find work in their chosen fields. Too often, the answer is "no". Professional positions here tend to pay less than in major cities nearby -- supply and demand, remember -- with the double-whammy of housing that is quite expensive for upstate New York. The quest for affordable housing is the main driver of urban sprawl here
    I've heard that some faculty and staff live in southern Cayuga County where housing is much less expensive and there is plenty of land available at the right price for those who want to build their own home.


    BTW, I was told by a couple of cyclists that the gyros on the Commons are to die for.

  3. #28
    Cyburbian illinoisplanner's avatar
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    Thanks Dan for the info. I figured that a lot of upstate NY places were still a little behind the curve when it came to planning, and knowing that Ithaca is a bigger population center, I figured it must have some more of the bigger stores and a little bit of sprawly development on the fringes.
    "Life's a journey, not a destination"
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  4. #29
    Cyburbian mgk920's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by illinoisplanner View post
    Thanks Dan for the info. I figured that a lot of upstate NY places were still a little behind the curve when it came to planning, and knowing that Ithaca is a bigger population center, I figured it must have some more of the bigger stores and a little bit of sprawly development on the fringes.
    Don't forget, too, that in the State of New York, municipal annexation has been impossible for many decades now, such that nearly all of the state's smaller metro area central cities are now severely 'underbound' and that the City of Ithaca is no exception to that. Correct me if I am wrong, but it is my belief that Ithaca Township may now be much more populous than the City of Ithaca and that pretty much all of the Ithaca urban area's 'sprawly' development is in the Town, as well as in a couple of other adjacent townships.

    How different would the Ithaca area be of all of its reasonably continuous urbanized area was in one city?

    Mike

  5. #30
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by mgk920 View post
    Don't forget, too, that in the State of New York, municipal annexation has been impossible for many decades now, such that nearly all of the state's smaller metro area central cities are now severely 'underbound' and that the City of Ithaca is no exception to that. Correct me if I am wrong, but it is my belief that Ithaca Township may now be much more populous than the City of Ithaca and that pretty much all of the Ithaca urban area's 'sprawly' development is in the Town, as well as in a couple of other adjacent townships.
    Most commercial sprawl is in the City of Ithaca. "Ithaca's wang" is a part of the city that includes Elmira Road and its strip development. The CIty of Ithaca is approaching buildout. The population in the Town of Ithaca is a bit less than the city (minus students); large-lot sprawl is an issue, but it's more-or-less contained by a greenbelt of ag and conservation zoning, and it's recognized as a less-than-ideal form of development. The Village and Town of Lansing have a reputation for encouraging residential sprawl, and not considering more compact forms of development. The Village of Cayuga Heights is mostly upper-income larger lot development; it's the preferred home for Cornell faculty.
    Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

  6. #31
    Cyburbian hilldweller's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dan View post
    Despite it's reputation as a progressive blue state, New York is about 30 to 40 years behind the curve when it comes to contemporary land use planning and zoning.

    So true. I've found that upstate NY municipalites (mostly in the Capitol Region) tend to have incredibly discretionary land use codes and review procedures, to the extent that there's almost no guidance at all in terms of "this is the type of development we would like to see". Design standards (if they exist) are often outdated, and for whatever reason there is very little impetus to update them. Zoning boards would rather give away Use Variances like candy rather than update the code to reflect current trends. If there's a comp. plan it's usually collecting dust somewhere, rather than being used as a guiding document for decisions about land use, infrastructure, capital improvements, housing, et. al. I've heard it rationalized that maintaining the status quo is somehow preferable because the munis have inherently more control over projects, but in reality the lack of direction/standards just means for unneccessary conflict as developers come in with projects reeking of "how much can I get away with".

    Upstate NY is definitely behind the curve when it comes to planning in a lot of respects, and I've often wondered how much this can be expained by the stagnation/ lack of growth that characterizes its experience over the past few decades. Planning ideas like New Urbanism probably haven't penetrated the region in a way that they could have if the region was more economically vibrant. Although I'll concur with Dan that upstate NY is really hardcore about stormwater management. Low Impact Development is still seen as the holy grail of all planning ideas for some reason.

  7. #32
    Cyburbian Veloise's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dan View post
    Either Black Shirt And Rolled Up Jeans Girl, or Red Dress Girl.....
    Rank beginners both, NTTAWWT, I'm sure they are nice people. You'd have more fun in the capable arms of Strappy Top/Broomstick Floral or Neutral Calico Dress.

    Get your dance card ready, pencil sharpened.

  8. #33
    Cyburbian ofos's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Veloise View post
    Rank beginners both, NTTAWWT, I'm sure they are nice people. You'd have more fun in the capable arms of Strappy Top/Broomstick Floral or Neutral Calico Dress.

    Get your dance card ready, pencil sharpened.
    Don't ask a man which woman he'd like to dance with and expect his answer to be based on her dancing ability.
    “Death comes when memories of the past exceed the vision for the future.”

  9. #34
    maudit anglais
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    Love it:

    "Hey, if you could pick, which one of these would you like?"

    "Um, that one".

    "No, you don't want that one, take this one instead".

    It's like you're already married.

  10. #35
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Veloise View post
    Rank beginners both, NTTAWWT, .
    Like I'm some master contra dancer. You're talking to a guy who couldn't even comprehend two-stepping.
    Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

  11. #36
    Cyburbian Planit's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dan View post
    Like I'm some master contra dancer. You're talking to a guy who couldn't even comprehend two-stepping.
    So THATS why you left Texas so quickly!



    Does Ithaca have a volvo or subaru requirement for employees?
    "Whatever beer I'm drinking, is better than the one I'm not." DMLW
    "Budweiser sells a product they reflectively insist on calling beer." John Oliver

  12. #37
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Planit View post
    Does Ithaca have a volvo or subaru requirement for employees?
    Planning staff: three Subarus, one Dodge truck, one pedestrian.

    NYS has a small preferred vehicle list for municipal motor pools, and Volvos aren't on it. We'd like to get a Subaru as the department car, but supposedly the Jeep Liberty is the only 4WD vehicle on the list.

    Quote Originally posted by Planit View post
    So THATS why you left Texas so quickly!
    Austin, remember? It's because I've got no ink. Travis County law requires all residents above the age of 14 to have at least 25% tattoo coverage on their bodies within a year of establishing residency.
    Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

  13. #38
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    It was harder to get one than I realized, even at a really crunchy store downtown.



    The rate of exchange is based on the average hourly wage for unskilled labor in the county; now it's one hour = $10. You can't "buy" hours. but rather you "exchange cash" for them. Hours look like they'd be extremely easy to counterfeit; they're just printed on white heavy stock paper.

    The story I just heard: the hour system was fairly popular until its founder got his heart broken by the woman he loved, and he left the Ithaca area never to return. Without a champion for the hours, circulation declined, and, today, the closed economic ecosystem I described earlier is essentially what's left. Ithaca hours are to hippies what bitcoins are to the tinfoil hat crowd.

    EDIT: It's hemp paper.
    Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

  14. #39
    Cyburbian Veloise's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Tranplanner View post
    Love it:

    "Hey, if you could pick, which one of these would you like?"

    "Um, that one".

    "No, you don't want that one, take this one instead".

    It's like you're already married.
    Dan has made great strides, progressing from some still photos to a lengthy video and some actual discussion. Clearly he's interested. And he's stated that he is a neophyte.

    I'm not. It's a lot more fun to dance with someone who knows what she's doing. This is why I look for new fellows and invite them to dance. Red!Dress and Rolled-Up!Jeans are cute little things, but ... if my plans work out (rubs hands) the best dancers will act as guides.

    Also, note that one doesn't have to be partnered with someone in order to dance with her. Red!Dress's partner is Black Shirt/Tan Shorts.
    0:10 she swings with Blue Shirt/Jeans
    1:22 " " White Hair/Blue Shirt/Tan Shorts
    2:03 " " Blond Hipster in Black

    That's what makes it fun. You have a partner, and the two of you are dancing with another couple. Finish with them, onto the next.

  15. #40
    Cyburbian Linda_D's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by hilldweller View post
    Upstate NY is definitely behind the curve when it comes to planning in a lot of respects, and I've often wondered how much this can be expained by the stagnation/ lack of growth that characterizes its experience over the past few decades. Planning ideas like New Urbanism probably haven't penetrated the region in a way that they could have if the region was more economically vibrant. Although I'll concur with Dan that upstate NY is really hardcore about stormwater management. Low Impact Development is still seen as the holy grail of all planning ideas for some reason.
    I agree, and think that the economic stagnation and consequent population decline in Upstate outside of the big city metros (Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Albany) and the Hudson Valley has encouraged and re-enforced a love of low-density development. Because wage scales are lower in the small cities, towns, and rural areas that predominate in this area, a lot of the people who live in these areas of Upstate tend to do so because they consciously want to live in smaller communities or rural areas. This is especially true of returned ex-pats like myself and newcomers with no previous ties to a particular area. Some of the most ardent opponents of higher density development in Upstate are refugees from NYC and Buffalo or one of the other bigger cities. The general attitude among these people is "If I wanted to live in a big city, I would have stayed in NYC (or Buffalo or Albany, etc) where I would probably be making 20-50% more than I do now. If you want to live in a big city, move to one."

  16. #41
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    The arguments I've heard against density here are different than the "you're denying people the American dream, and you commie planners just want to pack people into apartment buildings like in France" argument you'll sometimes hear in redder parts of the country. They include:

    * Sprawl is"greener" due to decreased development coverage and stormwater runoff on the parcel where development takes place, described earlier. My response: it's not a very holistic or "big picture" view of sprawl.

    * The area experiences slow growth, and allowing one property owner to develop densely would deny others the right to develop, since the first development would "bogart" what demand there is. Farmer X can't subdivide if all the region's new housing is being built on the site where Farmer Y used to be. Sprawl is thus more equitable to landowners, especially in a region where many are land rich but cash poor. My response: good neighborhoods emerge over decades to develop, not months, and larger projects can be phased.

    * There's a very strong culture of gardening, growing your own food, and so on. Food security is a hot-button issue locally, My response: if someone really loves gardening that much, they can live in one of the many existing large-lot subdivisions, or get land further out. With transect-based zoning, there is still a place for larger lots. Transect-based development can also accommodate agricultural urbanism, and result in development that integrates better with the larger community than the cluster-style cohousing projects we now have. Also, what about the majority of people that aren't into gardening or permaculture?

    * Denser development will appeal to students. My response: you can't legally stop them, and besides, developers are building student apartment and off-campus dorm projects at a frantic pace closer to the campuses; those projects will absorb most of the demand for new student housing.

    * A lot of people prefer country living, "I don't want this piece of paradise to turn into [New York City|Buffalo]" (see LindaD's comments), etc. Again, true, but should "country living" be forced on everybody? Also, Ithaca is unusual for UNY in that the bulk of residents are transplants from outside the region.

    * Denser development in visually sensitive areas would have a greater visual impact than houses hidden on large lots among the woods, and be seen for miles or across the lake. Somewhat true, especially in a hilly area like this where almost everyplace is "visually sensitive". Again, though, this isn't seeing the "big picture". What's better, concentrating the visual impact on one area, or spreading it out?
    Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

  17. #42
    Cyburbian mgk920's avatar
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    Do they still make guns in Ithaca, NY? My father once owned an Ithaca shotgun that he used for bird hunting when he was young.

    Mike

  18. #43
    Cyburbian Veloise's avatar
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    <3 the grapes!

  19. #44
    Cyburbian Emeritus Bear Up North's avatar
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    Dun dun dun dun.....dun dun dun dun

    This Bear was watching a video from my Twilight Zone box set. Noticed that each episode was produced by Cayuga Productions. So I checked the trusty internet to see where series creator and host Red Serling was from. He was born in Syracuse. A "Finger Lakeian".

    Bear
    Occupy Cyburbia!

  20. #45
    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Bear Up North View post
    He was born in Syracuse. A "Finger Lakeian".

    Bear
    I think he was one of the most talented tv writers of his age. He was good. I suppose one could even say he was Finger Lakeian good!

  21. #46
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by mgk920 View post
    Do they still make guns in Ithaca, NY? My father once owned an Ithaca shotgun that he used for bird hunting when he was young.
    Nope. Only the smokestack of Ithaca Gun is left. The company is still in business, but the guns are made in Ohio now, if I recall.

    There's still a few factories around, but for the most part the Finger Lakes region has de-industrialized. The main drivers of the economy outside of Ithaca are specialty agriculture, viticulture and tourism.

    Also ...

    Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

  22. #47
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    I guess the video above answers the question are the parades in Ithaca lame because Volvo does not make a convertible?
    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

  23. #48
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    Seen here.



    * If you’ve caused a vein to throb on a stranger’s forehead by simply whispering the word “fracking,” you might have met a real Ithacan.

    * If you’ve ever been introduced to a person who divides the year into “snow tires” and “no snow tires,” you might have met a real Ithacan.

    * If the person changing your oil insists on being addressed as “Doctor,” and has the PhD. Diploma on the wall to back it up, you might have met a real Ithacan.

    * If you’ve found someone who’s passionate about wind farms…as long as they’re far, far away… you might have met a real Ithacan.

    * If you’ve just met a mayor who danced the whole route of an annual parade, you might have met a real Ithacan.

    * If you’re sitting next to the parent of a trilingual violin prodigy with dreadlocks, an LACS hoodie and a robust sense of entitlement, you might have met a real Ithacan.

    * You might have met a real Ithacan if the person you are talking to moved here “temporarily.” In 1977.

    * If the Prius that cut you off on Buffalo Street (pulling out of Greenstar across two lanes of traffic) has a bumper sticker with any of the following messages: pro-Obama, anti-war, pro-vegan, anti-TV, pro-Sim Redmond, anti-gun, pro-earth, anti-Voldermort…you’ve just had an encounter with a real Ithacan.

    * If someone at your table orders a Cascazilla, you might have met a real Ithacan.

    * If the person in front of you at Wegmans has feet caked with Grassroots mud, you might have met a real Ithacan.

    * If you know anyone who can describe the distinctive features of more than two Tompkins County waterfalls, you might have met a real Ithacan.

    * If the woman in the crosswalk in front of your car is festooned with pinwheels, flags, plackards, face paint and a fright wig, you might have met a real Ithacan.

    * If you see anybody wearing an “Ithaca is Gorges” tee shirt that says something other than “Ithaca is Gorges,” you might have met a real Ithacan.

    * If you know someone who has been moved to write a strongly-worded letter to the editor about the Cayuga Heights deer population, you might have met a real Ithacan.

    * If you ask a pedestrian for directions and she uses a Commons head shop as a landmark, you might have met a real Ithacan.

    * If there’s someone in your book club who is living off the fruits of the Cornell endowment, you might have met a real Ithacan.

    * If you’ve encountered a parent who has used a child as an excuse to play with the rubber ducks at the Sciencenter, you might have met a real Ithacan.

    * If a person knows your dog’s name (but not yours) from the dog park, you might have met a real Ithacan.

    * You might be talking to a real Ithacan if the person you are addressing is clad entirely in hemp.

    * If you know someone who remembers when Ithaca College didn’t feel conflicted about being the Bombers, you might have met a real Ithacan.

    * If you’ve been bragged to be one of the 1.3 million people who claim to have been at the May 8, 1977 Grateful Dead concert at Barton Hall, you might have met a real Ithacan.

    * If the recumbent bicycle you’re following is decorated with Tibetan prayer flags, you might have met a real Ithacan.

    * If you know people whose real estate taxes are more than the principal and interest on their mortgage every month, you might have met some real Ithacans.

    * If the wallet you found contains a well-stamped Gimme! buy-nine-get-one-free card, it might belong to a real Ithacan.

    * If a person from Ithaca doesn’t say “I live in Ithaca,” but “I live in Ecovillage,” you might have met a real Ithacan.

    * If you’ve had a beer with someone who never went to Ithaca College but still cares about the location of the Cortaca jug, you might have met a real Ithacan.

    * Did you talk to that guy carving pagan idols out of organic patchouli soap at the Farmers Market? You might have met a real Ithacan.

    * If the driver in the next car is blowing an audible gasket at a 4-minute traffic jam on Route 13, you might have met a real Ithacan.

    * If you’re talking to a parent who has a running tally of the number of snow days left in the school year, you might have met a real Ithacan.

    * If you know someone who can recite the history of the Aurora Street restaurants dating back to Theodore Zinck’s, you might have met a real Ithacan.

    * If you catch a ride with someone whose car is littered with Shortstop sandwich wrappers, you might have met a real Ithacan.

    * If you’ve run into someone who thinks her city invented the very concept of a pedestrian mall, you might have met a real Ithacan.

    * If you’ve ever had your ear bent by an expert on the relative effectiveness of different kinds of bridge fencing, you might have met a real Ithacan.

    * If you’ve seen a person who wears shorts in the winter and a wool hat in the summer, you might have met a real Ithacan.

    * If you have an acquaintance who can be goaded into an argument about where the first ice cream sundae was served, you might have met a real Ithacan.

    * If you know someone who has ‘accidentally’ overshot the Ithaca Bakery and wound up at Purity Ice Cream, you might have met a real Ithacan.
    Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

  24. #49
    Cyburbian Plus dandy_warhol's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Bear Up North View post
    This Bear was watching a video from my Twilight Zone box set. Noticed that each episode was produced by Cayuga Productions. So I checked the trusty internet to see where series creator and host Red Serling was from. He was born in Syracuse. A "Finger Lakeian".

    Bear
    Quote Originally posted by Maister View post
    I think he was one of the most talented tv writers of his age. He was good. I suppose one could even say he was Finger Lakeian good!
    Born in Syracuse but spent a good portion of his life in My Fair City. He graduated in 1943 from the local high school. I can point you to where his father's store was located. There's been talk of a Rod Serling museum but haven't seen anything concrete yet.

  25. #50
    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    Okay, you mentioned on another thread that you're in the finger lakes region - an area known for its viticulture - are oenophile influences highly visible, and if so how/where do you see it (e.g. do hot dog stands and truck stops offer Heron Hill, Barrington Cellars or Torrey Ridge?)

    More importantly what beers are popular around Ithaca?
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

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