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Thread: Hybrid v. disabled parking = political fun!

  1. #1
    Cyburbian UrbaneSprawler's avatar
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    Hybrid v. disabled parking = political fun!

    Nothing like combining LEED, disabled parking, and politicians in the land development process.

    LEED vs. disabled vs. politicians

  2. #2
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    Does ADA require specific location for the spaces? If not, what is the argument here?

    Mollica said the placement of the parking slots was intentional. He explained that the spots for LEV and hybrid vehicles are close to the store to assist with the Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design (LEED) certification requirements, a federal designation of energy efficiency and environmental design.
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  3. #3
    Cyburbian Cardinal's avatar
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    Anybody else think that designating parking spots for all these different groups of people is getting out of hand? Sure handicapped stalls make a good deal of sense. But designated stalls for hybrid cars? Seniors? Parents with chlidren? Why should these people have sole access to better parking spaces than anyone else? To me it simply says that the store values me less as a customer than it does someone else, based on demographics. Yes, I am being discriminated against.
    Anyone want to adopt a dog?

  4. #4
    Cyburbia Administrator Dan's avatar
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    From the ADA:

    4.6.2 Location. Accessible parking spaces serving a particular building shall be located on the shortest accessible route of travel from adjacent parking to an accessible entrance. In parking facilities that do not serve a particular building, accessible parking shall be located on the shortest accessible route of travel to an accessible pedestrian entrance of the parking facility. In buildings with multiple accessible entrances with adjacent parking, accessible parking spaces shall be dispersed and located closest to the accessible entrances.
    "Accessible route" takes ramps into consideration, and is different than a direct path.

    From LEED for New Construction and Major Renovations:

    SS Credit 4.3: Alternative Transportation: Low Emitting & Fuel Efficient Vehicles

    1 Point

    Intent
    Reduce pollution and land development impacts from automobile use.

    Requirements

    OPTION 1
    Provide low-emitting and fuel-efficient vehicles for 3% of Full-Time Equivalent (FTE) occupants AND provide preferred parking for these vehicles.

    OR

    OPTION 2
    Provide preferred parking for low-emitting and fuel-efficient vehicles for 5% of the total vehicle parking capacity of the site.

    OR

    OPTION 3
    Install alternative-fuel refueling stations for 3% of the total vehicle parking capacity of the site (liquid or gaseous fueling facilities must be separately ventilated or located outdoors).

    For the purposes of this credit, low-emitting and fuel-efficient vehicles are defined as vehicles that are either classified as Zero Emission Vehicles (ZEV) by the California Air Resources Board or have achieved a minimum green score of 40 on the American Council for an Energy Efficient Economy (ACEEE) annual vehicle rating guide.

    “Preferred parking” refers to the parking spots that are closest to the main entrance of the project (exclusive of spaces designated for handicapped) or parking passes provided at a discounted price.

    Emphasis mine. Somebody probably screwed up; even worse if the shortest "accessible path" was made longer than necessary to accommodate the hybrid spaced. Still, no need to politicize it.

    Quote Originally posted by Cardinal View post
    Anybody else think that designating parking spots for all these different groups of people is getting out of hand? Sure handicapped stalls make a good deal of sense. But designated stalls for hybrid cars? Seniors? Parents with chlidren? Why should these people have sole access to better parking spaces than anyone else? To me it simply says that the store values me less as a customer than it does someone else, based on demographics. Yes, I am being discriminated against.
    I understand the need for handicappped parking; the spaces are there to provide the disabled with access to the services able-bodied people take for granted. Handicapped spaces aren't a special privilege for a minority; they're there as part of protecting the basic civil rights of the disabled. The other reserved parking spaces just complicates things, and is more of a marketing stunt than providing any real convenience to their customers. For "stork spaces" to be useful, they should be wider, to accommodate strollers, but they aren't. At least in the States, we don't provide reserved spaces for women, as is the practice in Germany and Switzerland.





    Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. -- Edward Abbey

  5. #5
    Cyburbian stroskey's avatar
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    I know a lady who parks in "Expectant Mother" parking spots all the time because she says, "No one is rude enough to ask if I'm pregnant".

    At the local UAW hall there is a sign that says all foreign automobiles must park on the street and not in the nearby lot.
    I burned down the church to atone for my transgressions.

  6. #6
    Cyburbian Tobinn's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by stroskey View post
    I know a lady who parks in "Expectant Mother" parking spots all the time because she says, "No one is rude enough to ask if I'm pregnant".

    At the local UAW hall there is a sign that says all foreign automobiles must park on the street and not in the nearby lot.
    But what if my Honda was built in Kentucky?

    Generally speaking, getting prime spaces at the liquor store isn't going to tip the scales and get me to buy an electric vehicle. I think that particular LEED requirement is fairly schmucky. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of LEED and electric/alt. fuel vehicles and all but it seems that the LEED requirements were drawn up by a group of people each of whom were responsible for coming up exactly 32 requirements each come hell or high water by 3:00 Tuesday afternoon. Each persons first 20 or 25 are probably pretty good but at 2:30 with five requirements to go.....it probably broke down to a classic case of "Git r done".

    I imagine that if you have a handicap tag AND an alt. fuel vehicle you get to actually park in the store near the registers AND you get to sample all the Johnnie Walker Blue you want AND cut in line at checkout.
    At times like this, you have to ask yourself, "WWJDD?"
    (What Would Jimmy Durante Do?)

  7. #7
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Tobinn View post
    But what if my Honda was built in Kentucky?

    Generally speaking, getting prime spaces at the liquor store isn't going to tip the scales and get me to buy an electric vehicle. I think that particular LEED requirement is fairly schmucky. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of LEED and electric/alt. fuel vehicles and all but it seems that the LEED requirements were drawn up by a group of people each of whom were responsible for coming up exactly 32 requirements each come hell or high water by 3:00 Tuesday afternoon. Each persons first 20 or 25 are probably pretty good but at 2:30 with five requirements to go.....it probably broke down to a classic case of "Git r done".

    I imagine that if you have a handicap tag AND an alt. fuel vehicle you get to actually park in the store near the registers AND you get to sample all the Johnnie Walker Blue you want AND cut in line at checkout.
    To me this is much of the problem with NU or LEED. It comes across as "we know better than you" instead of this could help you. The LEED standards are a great concept, but their application just seems like it was a bunch of like-minded people who thought that if they push hard enough it will happen.

    I agree with Cardinal outside of handicapped parking spaces (which I agree with completely) I don't think there should be a regulatory backing for any other "saved" parking spots. Truthfully the power stations should be further from the door because these are the type of people that like to walk away.....
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  8. #8
    Cyburbian stroskey's avatar
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    Apparently those who can afford a Hybrid are better patrons than those who can not.
    I burned down the church to atone for my transgressions.

  9. #9
    Cyburbian UrbaneSprawler's avatar
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    Our Whole Foods initially wanted expectant mother parking spots that would have been closer to the code required handicap parking spots. That didn't make it past the zoning administrator.

    Quote Originally posted by Tobinn View post
    But what if my Honda was built in Kentucky?
    We own a Nissan, Honda, and Toyota, all were built in the U.S. It seems like most of Detroit ain't actually building in Detroit, but Canada or Mexico. I've long rationalized that I'd rather help the guy at working a Nissan plant in Tennessee than a CEO in Detroit.

    Quote Originally posted by Cardinal View post
    Anybody else think that designating parking spots for all these different groups of people is getting out of hand? Sure handicapped stalls make a good deal of sense. But designated stalls for hybrid cars? Seniors? Parents with chlidren? Why should these people have sole access to better parking spaces than anyone else? To me it simply says that the store values me less as a customer than it does someone else, based on demographics. Yes, I am being discriminated against.
    Nothing like being a disabled expectant senior citizen mother of small children who drives a domestic hybrid!

  10. #10
    Cyburbian mgk920's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Tobinn View post
    But what if my Honda was built in Kentucky?

    Generally speaking, getting prime spaces at the liquor store isn't going to tip the scales and get me to buy an electric vehicle. I think that particular LEED requirement is fairly schmucky. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of LEED and electric/alt. fuel vehicles and all but it seems that the LEED requirements were drawn up by a group of people each of whom were responsible for coming up exactly 32 requirements each come hell or high water by 3:00 Tuesday afternoon. Each persons first 20 or 25 are probably pretty good but at 2:30 with five requirements to go.....it probably broke down to a classic case of "Git r done".

    I imagine that if you have a handicap tag AND an alt. fuel vehicle you get to actually park in the store near the registers AND you get to sample all the Johnnie Walker Blue you want AND cut in line at checkout.
    Or your Chevy was built in Canada or Mexico? (I once owned a Chevy that was assembled in Japan!)

    I do agree, things are getting to the point of absurdity regarding designating parking spaces based on the technology of the vehicle's propulsion system. OTOH, I can see spaces with electrical outlets for cars with engine block heaters in places where it gets *REALLY COLD* in winter.

    And the blatant sex discrimination in those German parking spaces? Don't give anyone here, especially at the universities, any ideas! Pretty soon the Black Student Union (and other 'usual suspects') will start demanding racially/ethnically-segregated spaces for themselves....



    Mike

  11. #11
    Cyburbian Cardinal's avatar
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    Other than hadicapped parking, the other designated stalls are not legally sanctioned. You can go ahead and park in them if you like (and I have). The store may enforce their policy, but then I have the right to tell them I do not agree, will not be treated like a second class customer, and take my business elsewhere.
    Anyone want to adopt a dog?

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