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Thread: Why Donít Powerful Women Have Sex Scandals?

  1. #26
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Maister View post
    If one were basing their guesses of what dobopoq's motives/agendas in starting this thread were on nothing more than his remarks in this thread I could maybe see why you might jump to that conclusion, but if you look at the entirety of what he's written here over the years about gender issues, one would probably come to the opposite conclusion. He's written several times about his contempt for machismo and railed against the various manifestations of the traditional male paradigms that prevail in our culture.
    Seconded. dobo has written extensively about various gender issues and workplace gender issues. I have never got the impression that he is ever complaining about one set/type of double standards over another- just that he chooses to examine each gender inequality issue on its own. Inevitably people seem to get upset/insulted by some of his comments and how they percieve them but that is not his intention. while I may not always agree with him and sometimes his observations may not be as all-encompassing as he tends to assert, I find his discussions quite thought provoking. i have never once felt like he has any hostility towards one particular gender - rather, any hostility he may have is towards the social norms that govern gender issues.
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

  2. #27
    Cyburbian dobopoq's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Linda_D View post
    That may very well be true, but disliking certain traditional gender roles may not necessarily doesn't change the fact that he's complaining about a double-standard that favors women when reality says there's still a long, long way to go to be women have more than a semblance of equality with men in our society.
    I'm going to ignore the descent into an ad hominem attack on me from your previous post. But I will respond to this one.

    In my many ramblings on gender in this forum, all I want to do is establish an openness to understanding the hardships and injustices that cultural expectations place upon both genders. There are many double standards in life - all of us find ourselves on the losing end of one or more of them - at some point.

    We're just posting our thoughts on a public message board so lets try not to get too personal.

    Quote Originally posted by Linda_D View post
    I finally see what the OP really wanted to complain about from the get-go: the double standard that he sees in the treatment of men and women when they engage in office affairs. When I read your original post, I thought I detected a very nasty anti-female bias, but I thought that maybe that was just my radical-liberal feminist mind being suspicious. However, after reading your responses to the various posts, I will say that my original assessment was correct.

    Your polemics are on the same plane as the carefully constructed apologetica put out by racists, anti-Semites and other assorted haters in academia who wrap their vile hatred in a fancy wrapper using pretty words and a respectable demeanor. Let me guess, in your heart of hearts, you probably think rape victims "asked for it", right? No matter what you wrap it in, though, the manure you're spreading still stinks like all the rest of the manure in the tank.

    You can come here and whine about how women are so powerful and favored over men when --
    • poverty isn't primarily the lot of single women and their children
    • women who are successful aren't considered cold, calculating, ruthless bitches
    • half of the CEOs in this country are female
    • the average woman earns as much as the average man
    • male jackarses don't blather on about "powerful" supermodels are

    Dude, I'm with Zoning Goddess, "What planet are you from?".
    The fact that this post wasn't yellow carded IMO shows how much favorable treatment women get in our society. You basically destroyed my character when I never was saying anything about you personally.

    My posts come as a surprise to many people because most people are only used to hearing women complain about how much it sucks being a woman. You don't hear men complain because it's considered unmanly. What I'm often doing in my posts is bitching about what it's like to be a man. THIS IN NO WAY BELITTLES THE PLIGHT OF WOMEN.

    Most men aren't in the habit of bringing up the downsides of being a man in our society - unlike is typical for women. Aside from the fact that we're socialized not to complain, men keep silent about their frustrations because it's already hard enough to find a way inside a woman's pants.

    I can't believe how hateful your post was - Comparing me to racists and piles of shit. You almost accuse me of being a rapist. Your post has made me feel bad for days.

    My life sucks. Hardly a week goes by that I don't think about killing myself. Their are a lot of reasons why I feel this way. To the extent that my suicidal thoughts stem from gender - I can tell you that if I could just walk into a bar on any given night and pick up someone of the opposite sex to have sex with - it would go a long way toward alleviating my desire to kill myself. Most women generally can do this. That's just the way the cookie crumbles for men genetically/culturally. They're are all kinds of reasons that women may think of committing suicide. That I feel envious of women's sexual power doesn't mean I don't think women suffer in horrible ways too that are unique to their gender.

    But your post assumes that because I'm pointing out the ways that life sucks for a man - it must mean that I hate women and that their suffering is of no consequence.
    Quote Originally posted by Linda_D View post
    Let me guess, in your heart of hearts, you probably think rape victims "asked for it", right?
    I have never posted anything even remotely along these lines. This is the view held by religious fundamentalists and social conservatives. I am the antithesis of this. See this thread I started titled: Should Women be Allowed to go Topless in the same Public Places Men are Allowed to?
    http://www.cyburbia.org/forums/showthread.php?t=25879
    From my posts there, I am clearly in favor of women being allowed to have the same freedom men do to be shirtless in public. But as an inveterate commenter on all things gender-related, I have also pointed out in tons of posts that in general, woman have a much wider range of acceptable clothing options to choose from then men do. My envy of this in no way means that I think women should dress in burka's like some Muslims do.

    So for the record - I am pro-female toplessness and pro-women being able to dress as slutty as they want. (I am also pro-men having the freedom to dress in something other than simply a suit and tie at important public gatherings/workplace etc.) Of course I will stare at women who dress slutty - but to accuse me of believing that such dress constitutes not only an invitation to rape but also justification for it - is a complete misunderstanding of my views. Your characterization of my views here is incredibly irresponsible and hurtful at worst and off-topic at best.
    "The current American way of life is founded not just on motor transportation but on the religion of the motorcar, and the sacrifices that people are prepared to make for this religion stand outside the realm of rational criticism." -Lewis Mumford

  3. #28
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by dobopoq View post
    The fact that this post wasn't yellow carded IMO shows how much favorable treatment women get in our society. You basically destroyed my character when I never was saying anything about you personally.

    My posts come as a surprise to many people because most people are only used to hearing women complain about how much it sucks being a woman. You don't hear men complain because it's considered unmanly. What I'm often doing in my posts is bitching about what it's like to be a man. THIS IN NO WAY BELITTLES THE PLIGHT OF WOMEN.

    Most men aren't in the habit of bringing up the downsides of being a man in our society - unlike is typical for women. Aside from the fact that we're socialized not to complain, men keep silent about their frustrations because it's already hard enough to find a way inside a woman's pants.

    I can't believe how hateful your post was - Comparing me to racists and piles of shit. You almost accuse me of being a rapist. Your post has made me feel bad for days.

    My life sucks. Hardly a week goes by that I don't think about killing myself. Their are a lot of reasons why I feel this way. To the extent that my suicidal thoughts stem from gender - I can tell you that if I could just walk into a bar on any given night and pick up someone of the opposite sex to have sex with - it would go a long way toward alleviating my desire to kill myself. Most women generally can do this. That's just the way the cookie crumbles for men genetically/culturally. They're are all kinds of reasons that women may think of committing suicide. That I feel envious of women's sexual power doesn't mean I don't think women suffer in horrible ways too that are unique to their gender.

    But your post assumes that because I'm pointing out the ways that life sucks for a man - it must mean that I hate women and that their suffering is of no consequence.

    I have never posted anything even remotely along these lines. This is the view held by religious fundamentalists and social conservatives. I am the antithesis of this. See this thread I started titled: Should Women be Allowed to go Topless in the same Public Places Men are Allowed to?
    http://www.cyburbia.org/forums/showthread.php?t=25879
    From my posts there, I am clearly in favor of women being allowed to have the same freedom men do to be shirtless in public. But as an inveterate commenter on all things gender-related, I have also pointed out in tons of posts that in general, woman have a much wider range of acceptable clothing options to choose from then men do. My envy of this in no way means that I think women should dress in burka's like some Muslims do.

    So for the record - I am pro-female toplessness and pro-women being able to dress as slutty as they want. (I am also pro-men having the freedom to dress in something other than simply a suit and tie at important public gatherings/workplace etc.) Of course I will stare at women who dress slutty - but to accuse me of believing that such dress constitutes not only an invitation to rape but also justification for it - is a complete misunderstanding of my views. Your characterization of my views here is incredibly irresponsible and hurtful at worst and off-topic at best.
    I agree 100%.

    I've typically played devil's advocate with you, but enjoy and appreciate your posts.

    Linda was way over the top.

    I understand where you come from, but I think you reach your conclusions in ways that alienate others. But sometimes that's their problem, not yours. Please keep posting dobopoq, if for no other reason than it being therapeutic.
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  4. #29
    Cyburbian Plus Zoning Goddess's avatar
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    Of course all you guys support him: he's "suicidal" but maybe if he gets banged he'll be OK. Please. Rent a hooker. This is like the legendary WWII soldier going overseas (not to discount our WWII generation) who pleaded with their virginal girlfriends to have sex with them in case they died.

    Dobopoq is so misogynistic even the most beer-swilling, testosterone-boasting,asshole in the world should shout him down. He's been emasculated on some level and is scared of, and hates, women,but you guys can't pick up on that. It's really evident to women, or why would we post as we do?

    Linda was not being mean to him. She was zeroing in but it just makes all you guys way too uncomfortable.

  5. #30
    Cyburbian dobopoq's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Linda_D View post
    You can come here and whine about how women are so powerful and favored over men when --
    • poverty isn't primarily the lot of single women and their children
    • women who are successful aren't considered cold, calculating, ruthless bitches
    • half of the CEOs in this country are female
    • the average woman earns as much as the average man
    • male jackarses don't blather on about "powerful" supermodels are

    Dude, I'm with Zoning Goddess, "What planet are you from?".
    As for these comments; Well you're basically saying men have no right to complain. Which is exactly how most men behave most of the time.

    Acting bitchy, complaining about things that don't seem fair and even going to the doctor are all areas of life that men tend to be behind women in. Maybe bosses are more likely to give bigger raises to people who don't complain and who show up to work everyday. And maybe those same people die sooner because they bury their feelings more than women do and feel they should make as much money as possible to keep the women in their lives happy.

    If women want to become chain smokers and get lung cancer, do backbreaking physical labor and get asbestosis, and shot at in the front lines of war, and commit suicide from the stress of it all - like men more often do - I'm all for it.

    Women are free to stress themselves out in the workplace as much as men do. But if they don't like that, they can also just go back to plan B and be housewives - which is still totally acceptable for them. If men want to be successful in life - their one and only option is to become a careerist.

    I've got zilch against women being in charge of fortune 500 companies and G8 nations. But men continue to be dominant in these roles - not because of some united patriarchal effort to keep women down - but because the stakes for men in life are different for men than they are for women - not better or worse - just different. If I could succeed merely by my sex appeal (and landing a male companion with it) - why stress myself out as a CEO? Does the glass ceiling exist? Hell yeah it does. But choosing motherhood and domesticity because of a ticking biological clock just as your career is ready to take off - is a choice. Men certainly aren't forcing women to become mothers. I'm also all for the type of social policy that the Scandinavian countries have which allows women the most freedom to become mothers and have a career of any countries in the world. America is still kinda like Italy-Light when it comes to the level of discouragement of mothers to work.

    So I am for choices. Where I have a problem is when society imposes an arbitrary constraint or penalty upon a man or a woman that doesn't need to be there. To pretend that this only negatively affects women is myopic. And to suggest that by bringing up the negatives of life for men - makes me a hater of women is pure misandry. [Cyburbia's spell check doesn't even recognize "misandry" but you better believe it recognizes "misogyny".]

    I don't know how much more clear I can be Linda D. Sexism is a two-way street. It depresses me when it occurs to either sex. I prefer the term "Gender-Egalitarianism" to "Feminism".

    Quote Originally posted by Linda_D View post
    [When], "poverty isn't primarily the lot of single women and their children"
    This is a preposterous statement. First of all, becoming a parent isn't a right - it's a privilege that is freely chosen by women. Statistics bear out the fact that high income people have fewer children. If ever there was a decision that women are in control of - it is whether a child will be born or not.

    Unlike women who have the WIC program (Women, Infants and Children), there is not a single government program that benefits specifically low-income males. Apparently, if you're a poor single father - you are by definition a deadbeat scumbag. But if you're a poor single mother - you are worthy of sympathy. I am not somebody who raises hell about welfare - so let's not go there. But I bring it up merely to point out that our society consistently views poor single fathers as being unworthy of sympathy.

    Quote Originally posted by Linda_D View post
    When "women who are successful aren't considered cold, calculating, ruthless bitches".
    The same could be said of many men. Though I'll admit that our society generally allows men to be more this way - if only because economic success is the primary life option that men are indoctrinated into pursuing.

    Economic success isn't all there is in life. Women are usually sensible enough to grasp this but the men who jump out windows or blow themselves and their families away because of out of control debt obviously lose sight of this. Men have benefited tremendously from the women's movement - Men don't have to make as much relative to women as they used to in order to appeal to women. But the reality remains that how much money a man makes is still more important to a woman than how much money a woman makes is to a man.

    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    I agree 100%.

    I've typically played devil's advocate with you, but enjoy and appreciate your posts.

    Linda was way over the top.

    I understand where you come from, but I think you reach your conclusions in ways that alienate others. But sometimes that's their problem, not yours. Please keep posting dobopoq, if for no other reason than it being therapeutic.
    [OFF-TOPIC]dobopoq not feeling so sad now. Thanks for the encouragement btrage, and thanks to Maister and imaplanner as well for helping to prevent me from being misinterpreted/misunderstood.

    I admit to attempting to travel up some rather dubious intellectual rivers and I'd be the last person to claim to always be logical. "Thinking" in the Jungian/MBTI sense of the word, isn't my strong suit. I am quite foolish in many ways and I have my own laziness to blame for much that troubles me. Perhaps I am misguided. I'm certainly alienated. It's curious that you mention that I "reach [my] conclusions in ways that alienate others." But without being too personal, things have improved greatly for me in the past 2 or 3 years and I am overall much better adjusted and established.]
    "The current American way of life is founded not just on motor transportation but on the religion of the motorcar, and the sacrifices that people are prepared to make for this religion stand outside the realm of rational criticism." -Lewis Mumford

  6. #31
    Cyburbian SW MI Planner's avatar
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    I initially left this thread alone because in all honesty I thought your other posts were perhaps misunderstood and the girls were being a little harsh on you. However, this most recent post reinforces that you indeed a sexist asshole that "belittles the plight of women".

    Quote Originally posted by dobopoq
    Acting bitchy, complaining about things that don't seem fair and even going to the doctor are all areas of life that men tend to be behind women in. Maybe bosses are more likely to give bigger raises to people who don't complain and who show up to work everyday. And maybe those same people die sooner because they bury their feelings more than women do and feel they should make as much money as possible to keep the women in their lives happy.
    Quote Originally posted by dobopoq
    If women want to become chain smokers and get lung cancer, do backbreaking physical labor and get asbestosis, and shot at in the front lines of war, and commit suicide from the stress of it all - like men more often do - I'm all for it.
    Quote Originally posted by dobopoq
    If I could succeed merely by my sex appeal (and landing a male companion with it) - why stress myself out as a CEO? Does the glass ceiling exist? Hell yeah it does.
    Ohhh, I see, it's our fault we can't get ahead because we bitch too much and go to the doctor when we are sick. Unless we are lucky enough to be hot and want to sleep our way to the top. And those poor men, work their asses off to keep their women happy. Got it. WTF ever.

    Quote Originally posted by dobopoq
    Women are free to stress themselves out in the workplace as much as men do. But if they don't like that, they can also just go back to plan B and be housewives - which is still totally acceptable for them. If men want to be successful in life - their one and only option is to become a careerist.
    We should feel so fortunate that have the ability to be a housewife, a "plan B" You understand men have that same option, right? While historically it's been the man that has ben the "careerist", it's becoming more common where the women fill that role while the husband works from home and takes care of the kids.

    Quote Originally posted by dobopoq
    First of all, becoming a parent isn't a right - it's a privilege that is freely chosen by women. Statistics bear out the fact that high income people have fewer children. If ever there was a decision that women are in control of - it is whether a child will be born or not.
    Quote Originally posted by dobopoq
    But choosing motherhood and domesticity because of a ticking biological clock just as your career is ready to take off - is a choice. Men certainly aren't forcing women to become mothers.
    Unless immaculate conception is rampantly occurring, it's my understanding that it takes two to tango. A man has the choice to wrap it up, regardless if the women says she is fixed, on the pill, etc.

  7. #32
    Cyburbian dobopoq's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by SW MI Planner View post
    I initially left this thread alone because in all honesty I thought your other posts were perhaps misunderstood and the girls were being a little harsh on you. However, this most recent post reinforces that you indeed a sexist asshole that "belittles the plight of women".
    I initially left this thread alone because in all honesty I thought your other posts were perhaps misunderstood and the girls were being a little harsh on you. However, this most recent post reinforces that you indeed a sexist asshole that "belittles the plight of women".

    Quote:
    Originally posted by dobopoq
    Acting bitchy, complaining about things that don't seem fair and even going to the doctor are all areas of life that men tend to be behind women in. Maybe bosses are more likely to give bigger raises to people who don't complain and who show up to work everyday. And maybe those same people die sooner because they bury their feelings more than women do and feel they should make as much money as possible to keep the women in their lives happy.
    Quote:
    Originally posted by dobopoq
    If women want to become chain smokers and get lung cancer, do backbreaking physical labor and get asbestosis, and shot at in the front lines of war, and commit suicide from the stress of it all - like men more often do - I'm all for it.
    Quote:
    Originally posted by dobopoq
    If I could succeed merely by my sex appeal (and landing a male companion with it) - why stress myself out as a CEO? Does the glass ceiling exist? Hell yeah it does.
    Ohhh, I see, it's our fault we can't get ahead because we bitch too much and go to the doctor when we are sick. Unless we are lucky enough to be hot and want to sleep our way to the top. And those poor men, work their asses off to keep their women happy. Got it. WTF ever.
    I'm saying that men ought to feel free to bitch about things more often than they do. But men are raised with something of a self-denying military mindset. If you're in the military, you don't complain about petty things. I believe women feel much more free to complain about things than men do. Those who abuse this can be labelled as being bitchy. Saying that women are more likely to complain about things doesn't mean that I'm sexist.

    You've gone ad hominem on your 1st post in this thread - calling me a "sexist asshole". I've not personally attacked any of the female commenters in this thread. Why can't you all handle the idea that males should have a right to complain about their plight just as female do theirs? I'm not destroying the character of any female posters here.

    All I ask, SW Michigan planner, is that you open yourself to the possibility that both sexes can be oppressed by gender roles. My posts are not spewing vitriol or hate at any person on this board nor are they sexist in character against women. Life can suck pretty bad for both sexes. And both sexes can also suck really bad in terms of their behavior toward the opposite sex. I come here with sympathy and openness. You are not playing fair in accusing me of the things you have.

    dobopoq say peace
    "The current American way of life is founded not just on motor transportation but on the religion of the motorcar, and the sacrifices that people are prepared to make for this religion stand outside the realm of rational criticism." -Lewis Mumford

  8. #33
    Cyburbian TerraSapient's avatar
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    To me, this thread reads:
    Stereotype
    Stereotype
    Stereotype
    Ranting
    Anger
    Stereotype
    Stereotype
    Stereotype
    Anger
    Stereotype

    Aren't we all big enough to stop throwing stereotyped images of gender around and validating our own existence from them? There is no real difference between men and women. It is all culture. If you don't like it, set the culture aside and move on.

    Dobopoq - if you are truly suicidal, you should get professional help immediately. Talking about your feelings in an online forum isn't going to help. You should consider talking to a therapist. If you aren't serious, then please don't say that casually.

    Also, at first I couldn't tell whether or not your posts were sarcastic, so I just ignored them, but if you are not intending to offend the women of this forum, then you should know that a lot of your statements are offensive. Women have worked really hard to pull ourselves up from under the thumb of men in our society. It wasn't easy and we still have some work to do. Broad generalizations like the ones you made that cast women essentially as sex objects certainly doesn't help our cause and serves only to point out how much work we have yet to do. Lashing out at us because you think life isn't fair is misguided and off mark. You should work on yourself instead of blaming others. Find out who you want to be, and be that person. Don't point fingers, don't assign blame. Be the change.
    Occupy Your Brain!

  9. #34
    Cyburbian SW MI Planner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by dobopoq View post
    I'm saying that men ought to feel free to bitch about things more often than they do. But men are raised with something of a self-denying military mindset. If you're in the military, you don't complain about petty things. I believe women feel much more free to complain about things than men do. Those who abuse this can be labelled as being bitchy. Saying that women are more likely to complain about things doesn't mean that I'm sexist.
    No, but saying that women can't get ahead because they complain more and see the doctor more than men, and claiming we can use our sexuality to succeed, is sexist.

    Quote Originally posted by dobopoq View post
    Why can't you all handle the idea that males should have a right to complain about their plight just as female do theirs?

    All I ask, SW Michigan planner, is that you open yourself to the possibility that both sexes can be oppressed by gender roles. My posts are not spewing vitriol or hate at any person on this board nor are they sexist in character against women. Life can suck pretty bad for both sexes. And both sexes can also suck really bad in terms of their behavior toward the opposite sex. I come here with sympathy and openness. You are not playing fair in accusing me of the things you have.
    I completely agree with you that men should have just as much right to complain as females, and I agree that BOTH sexes can be oppressed by gender roles and BOTH can behave inappropriately toward each other. However, your post was clearly biased toward men. Which, I respect your right to have that opinion, but then complaining that sexism exists when you yourself perpetuate it smacks of hypocrisy.

    And I apologize for the asshole part, that was out of line.

  10. #35
    Cyburbian wahday's avatar
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    Not with a 10 foot pole!

    I feel like I just walked in on my parents having a knock down drag out argument.

    Now I'm going to tip toe quietly back out the door and close. it. very. slowly. and. quietly.

    I was never here.
    The purpose of life is a life of purpose

  11. #36
    Cyburbian dobopoq's avatar
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    I believe the men in our society are increasingly worthless. What do women need men for? What does our economy need men for?

    We're in the midst of a massive debt deflation. We're living through the worst economic times since the great depression. One huge difference between the 1930's and now is that in the 30's, women constituted only a bit more than 1/5th of the labor force: http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/historyonline/us24.cfm,
    whereas today they recently became for the 1st time ever - a majority of the labor force.

    What does all this have to do with the thread topic of sex scandals only occurring to powerful men? Well back in the 1930's, there weren't many sex scandals - in part because the media were a far smaller presence in our lives, and certain things were not spoken of. But obviously, the miniscule presence of women in the workplace meant few situations occurred where a male employee might work in close proximity to an attractive female subordinate with whom he could use his position to initiate intimacy in an unequal way.

    The presence of females in the workplace has increasingly forced men to deny their sexuality. An unwelcome advance that is turned down by a woman isn't just a momentary let down to a man's ego; Such rejections are increasingly seen as probable cause for destroying a man's reputation and career. A man who is rejected can act in exactly the same way as a man whose pass is accepted. But we often tend to label sexual initiative by the man who fails as a crime, while the man who succeeds with the same behavior is a stud.

    Men can't walk around an with an erection. They can't show hardly any skin. They can't typically wear nearly the same range of fabrics, styles or colors that women can, let alone makeup or hairstyles. In short, they can't call attention to themselves in the way that women can through passive means. And yet, somehow, we are all here as a result of sex. How are men supposed to ever smile and pretend that life is worth living when the desire that is at the source of our creation hangs about our necks like a noose that threatens to hang us if ever we misinterpret the sexual cues of the "expressive sex"?

    The small %'s of men who rise to the tops of their profession and often occupy a larger percentage of management than women, don't get there without spending lots of time on the job. Now imagine you're a man who has worked his way up the ladder of a company for many years, who spends 50, 60 or more hours a week at the office. He makes a lot of money, but because he works so many hours, his free time is scarce which makes it harder for him to meet people. Now that he is indisputably a success - economically in life, he can perceive himself to be desirable in ways that he wasn't as a young man - to the ranks of young attractive females that are just getting started in their careers at the company. His success comes in midlife, following decades of hard work, and is now only sustainable by an ethic of workaholism. The young females may be only entry level with just college degrees, but the desirability of their bodies screams out to him - just as they do to every man, except that in his case, he actually has a shot of getting some play with them. His power and success are also felt more strongly at his workplace than anywhere else, since that is the place where the most # of people know of his status. Outside of work, at a restaurant, or bar, or other public places, his high status can only be supposed to the extent that he concerns himself with acquiring and adorning himself with various status symbols. Even still, he may find that until and or unless he proves his status by lavishing extravagance upon the women he desires, he gets little respect from said females.

    The modern woman - whether young or middle aged, if attractive, does not have her erotic capital so tied up with what she does for a living. A poor woman if, attractive and dressed appropriately, can do far better in the company of wealthy men, than a stylishly dressed and attractive but poor man can in the company of upper class women. For a woman with high erotic capital, being unemployed in a crappy economy has far less impact on her social and sexual happiness than that of a man. And I would say a majority of women have enough erotic capital that the above is true.

    To be sure, the depression which began in 2007 has been tough on both sexes. But in terms of dating - for women it has manifested primarily in terms of having to lower their expectations of how successful they can expect an eligible guy to be. Many have had to delay their plans to become mothers or have additional children. If they have found themselves to be among the ranks of unemployed, they have not needed to trouble themselves over whether they can afford to spend enough money to attract the attention of males. For the larger proportion of unemployed who are men, trying to meet women to date has often felt like a humiliating kick in the crotch.

    I say all of the this, not to defend men who have lost their positions due to sex scandals, but to remind people of what life in this economy has been like for many men in the middle and lower rungs of our society. I find it necessary to reiterate that this does disparage the lot of females. I am merely trying to paint a picture that expresses what I believe is how many men feel these days. Expressions of how men feel isn't something that our culture is very accustomed to giving a *hit about. But I'm not trying to pick up any women here, so that's why I'm letting my bitch flag fly free.

    If I was sexist against women, I would be saying they belong in the home and trashing feminism. Instead, I think it would be adaptive if we perhaps started practicing sex-selective abortion against male babies. I end my post where I began it - repeating the assertion that men are increasingly worthless in our culture. [But I'm sure some female poster will find a way to make this post be about how I hate women rather than showing a gram of sympathy for the ways I describe life being for men. And such misinterpretations will just add to the reasons why I often wish I was never born and think about ending my life. Men are not welcome. They are worthless and should be disposed of.]
    Last edited by dobopoq; 04 Sep 2011 at 6:35 AM.
    "The current American way of life is founded not just on motor transportation but on the religion of the motorcar, and the sacrifices that people are prepared to make for this religion stand outside the realm of rational criticism." -Lewis Mumford

  12. #37
    NIMBY asshatterer Plus Richmond Jake's avatar
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    Do you consume a lot of hallucinogenics and have an enormous amount of spare time on your hands, dobopog? Just wondering.

  13. #38
    Cyburbian dobopoq's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by RichmondJake View post
    Do you consume a lot of hallucinogenics and have an enormous amount of spare time on your hands, dobopog? Just wondering.
    I post not at work - when I am being paid to do a job. I post at home when I am free to compose my thoughts unencumbered. The output of my efforts may strain the attention span of certain individuals.
    "The current American way of life is founded not just on motor transportation but on the religion of the motorcar, and the sacrifices that people are prepared to make for this religion stand outside the realm of rational criticism." -Lewis Mumford

  14. #39
    Cyburbian Plus
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    SAW
    Quote Originally posted by dobopoq View post
    . The output of my efforts may strain the attention span of certain individuals.
    Oh, look a squirrel.
    Oddball
    Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves?
    Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here?
    Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
    From Kelly's Heroes (1970)


    Are you sure you're not hurt ?
    No. Just some parts wake up faster than others.
    Broke parts take a little longer, though.
    From Electric Horseman (1979)

  15. #40
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by SW MI Planner View post
    No, but saying that women can't get ahead because they complain more and see the doctor more than men, and claiming we can use our sexuality to succeed, is sexist.
    .
    I personally know of quite a few situations where women I work with have most definitely used their sexuality to succeed in the workplace. In two particular instances that included sleeping with management to get promotions. That in no way means most women do this, but to pretend like it doesn't happen is disingenuous.


    Quote Originally posted by Zoning Goddess
    Dobopoq is so misogynistic
    I don't think this is fair, especially coming from you. Many of your posts over the years have read of hatred towards men- but I have always given you the benefit of the doubt because i don't truly believe you hate men. I do the same with dobo.
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

  16. #41
    Cyburbian Plus Zoning Goddess's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by dobopoq View post
    The presence of females in the workplace has increasingly forced men to deny their sexuality. An unwelcome advance that is turned down by a woman isn't just a momentary let down to a man's ego; Such rejections are increasingly seen as probable cause for destroying a man's reputation and career.

    Men can't walk around an with an erection. They can't show hardly any skin.

    Now imagine you're a man who has worked his way up the ladder of a company for many years, who spends 50, 60 or more hours a week at the office The young females may be only entry level with just college degrees, but the desirability of their bodies screams out to him - just as they do to every man, except that in his case, he actually has a shot of getting some play with them. His power and success are also felt more strongly at his workplace than anywhere else, since that is the place where the most # of people know of his status.

    For the larger proportion of unemployed who are men, trying to meet women to date has often felt like a humiliating kick in the crotch.

    I have heavily edited your post because most of it says you are either insane or Dan has paid you as a sockpuppet to drum up business, but I'll be it's the former.

    Any man who thinks he has been SHOULD feel that humiliating kick in the crotch because, when he "walks around with an erection", women will laugh at him for being such a misogynistic bastard.

    So a guy makes unwelcome advances to a "desirable" body; never mind what the woman's personality is? Just her looks? And she says no? And your view is " Such rejections are increasingly seen as probable cause for destroying a man's reputation and career". So women should what, just sleep with the jerk? If they can't keep their pants zipped, they need to leave the workplace, not the women.

    You just hate women because you don't think guys get to be "frisky" without being censored anymore.

  17. #42
    Cyburbian dobopoq's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Zoning Goddess View post
    I have heavily edited your post because most of it says you are either insane or Dan has paid you as a sockpuppet to drum up business, but I'll be it's the former.

    Any man who thinks he has been SHOULD feel that humiliating kick in the crotch because, when he "walks around with an erection", women will laugh at him for being such a misogynistic bastard.

    So a guy makes unwelcome advances to a "desirable" body; never mind what the woman's personality is? Just her looks? And she says no? And your view is " Such rejections are increasingly seen as probable cause for destroying a man's reputation and career". So women should what, just sleep with the jerk? If they can't keep their pants zipped, they need to leave the workplace, not the women.

    You just hate women because you don't think guys get to be "frisky" without being censored anymore.
    ZG, how can you again slander me with another one of your posts? I speak nothing toward you or about you with any hostility or negativity. I sometimes find your posts helpful and insightful. I will defend myself If I feel unfairly attacked. I wish that you would refrain from casting aspersions on my character and employing invective as a means to discredit and silence me.

    I know countless numbers of females who I like as people and admire. I know women who have impressive career accomplishments. Most women have a better sense of groundedness than men, with a level of sensitivity, compassion and general social awareness that far exceeds most males. I know women who are brilliant and bold, who have a delicious sense of humor, who are great working with their hands and not afraid to get them dirty. I know women who have been too kind for their own good. I know women who have suffered abuse and been victims.

    I'm not suggesting that men be allowed to harrass and abuse women. I am saying I have frequently witnessed instances at work where females talk about their sexuality in ways that males do not feel free to. There is an unspoken supposition that if a man mentions certain subjects in the presence of women, he will be tarred and feathered and hung out to dry with a pink slip before he is even given a chance to defend himself. I walk on eggshells at work - both because I know you can't be too comfortable in your job in this economy and because I am hyper sensitive to a climate that is ever ready to cry wolf against males.

    There are some women at the office who I feel relaxed around and can be myself in front of. But there are some around whom I am forced to be hyper paranoid of my behavior lest they find the slightest pretext to complain about me and thus improve their lot as they trash mine. But I am never vindictive at work. I always treat people with respect and peace - even those who I dislike.

    There's nothing so shocking about this. It's no different than high school. But in high school it was easy to avoid people who dislike you. But when you have to work alongside people who seem determined to make life difficult for you no matter what - you are forced to turn your guard up to the max. Clashing with such individuals can mean being fired or even being arrested. In such a context, little of my personality can show thru from under the armor I am forced to erect to protect myself. But in our litigious, dog-eat-dog, he-said/she-said world where there are many who seek to rise by tearing others down, I have to stifle myself. [And no, I'm not talking about having to stifle some natural urge on my part to be a rapist - as you seem so quick to label me ZG; I'm talking about having to give up any hope or trust that my character will be given the honor of an open scrutiny by my peers in the event I am accused of some infraction. I do not dare to presume that I will be treated with dignity in such a circumstance.] All too frequently I see components of gender at play - when I see who is getting away with what, and who is being forced to repress themselves and cower in fear.

    I've seen many people of both sexes who have an awful character. And I have come across males in the workplace who have been hostile toward me. I have also seen male coworkers treat females in a way that could be described as sexual harrassment. Where it is warranted, I have spoken up against them or at least denounced their behavior.

    Again, I say peace. I am just trying to express a picture of what I perceive life to be like for males in the workplace - if I may be granted the privilege of doing so.
    Last edited by dobopoq; 04 Sep 2011 at 10:01 PM.
    "The current American way of life is founded not just on motor transportation but on the religion of the motorcar, and the sacrifices that people are prepared to make for this religion stand outside the realm of rational criticism." -Lewis Mumford

  18. #43
    NIMBY asshatterer Plus Richmond Jake's avatar
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    Slander, definition:

    1. defamation; calumny: rumors full of slander.
    2. a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report: a slander against his good name.
    3. Law. defamation by oral utterance rather than by writing, pictures, etc.
    Really? Slander? Drama queen.

  19. #44
    Cyburbian dobopoq's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by RichmondJake View post
    Really? Slander? Drama queen.
    #2 Really.
    "The current American way of life is founded not just on motor transportation but on the religion of the motorcar, and the sacrifices that people are prepared to make for this religion stand outside the realm of rational criticism." -Lewis Mumford

  20. #45
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    No two workplaces are alike, and no two workers experiences are alike. It is a simple fact of nature that people are treated differently in the workplace for any number of reasons. I've had the opportunity to work in many different workplaces with many different people and wildly different environments. I have worked in a place where women were generally at a disadvantage because management met regularly for sporting activities like basketball and golf, and I have seen how people who participated in those events were treated special at the workplace. I have seen women sleep with managers and get promotions they didnt deserve. I have seen office environments where either of those two situations would be cause for personel actions. I have worked in an office filled with many twenty something men and women who inevitably engaged in extraoffice activities. I have worked in offices where people barely talked to each other on a personal level for fear of improper accusations.

    These things happen. Dobopoq's issues are relevant to his own office experiences which are likely much different than yours or mine. A discussion of why he may be overgeneralizing based on his own perceptions would be appropriate. Ad-hominem attacks are uncalled for IMO.
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

  21. #46
    Cyburbian
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    Quote Originally posted by SW MI Planner View post
    We should feel so fortunate that have the ability to be a housewife, a "plan B" You understand men have that same option, right? While historically it's been the man that has ben the "careerist", it's becoming more common where the women fill that role while the husband works from home and takes care of the kids.
    I wouldn't be so annoyed if that was true, but men are subject to serious discrimination when they try that, mostly from women. One of my longtime friends had made a few edcational and career long shots that hadnt paid off, while his wife was far more employable. So when she got pregnant, they decided that he would be the at home parent. I was fine with that, as was his other male friends.

    However, he has had various institutions and random women firmly try to put him in his place.

    He has had strange women try to prevent him from changing his sons' diapers or access the changing room.

    His child's school will not speak with him about his child; in spite of both of their repeated explanations, they will hang up on him and interrupt his wife at work to ask about or talk about their childs' home life - which of course as the primary career breadwinner, she has limited knowledge of.

    He has had it made clear to him by various women that he is only one phone call away from being arrested as a suspected child molester and forced away from his family based on nothing more than the lack of his wife's presence at any given moment.

    I don't consider this to be the 'freedom' that you seem to think that men have to stay at home. If this is 'freedom to stay at home', then the ability to take a job as an eye candy secretary should be considered 'freedom to be a professional'. Clearly, 'pink collar' is no substitute for real freedom to work, just as continual sexism and threats and restricted access to public places are not 'freedom to be a stay-home father'.

    Does this mean that I think women's lives are all gold paved roads and flowers? Hardly. It means that I am tired of hearing the sexist misandry that I hear spewed around on a regular basis in response to quite reasonable attempt to open dialogue to work toward true equality.

    For centuries, an asymmetrical set of expectations were negotiated and created for gender roles. Are they fair? No, they weren't fair. Were they one-sided as certain sexists like to claim? Hardly. And they still aren't.

    Many men have acknowledged that the old roles weren't working. They want to make things equal, only to be discouraged by hateful women bigots who demand equality of outcome in the areas once considered 'masculine'.

    But at the same time, these female bigots simultaneously slap the same men down and 'show them their place' whenever they dare try their hand at things considered 'feminine', or try to point out the many aspects where they are at an inferior position. Those are not typically measured and publicized because of the inequality in discourse - which is itself created by the censoring action of misandrists; as it turns out, declaring that a persons' stance is scandalous and against the norm and should be suppressed is not something that can only be done by men.

  22. #47
    Cyburbian Plus Zoning Goddess's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by dobopoq View post
    .

    I'm not suggesting that men be allowed to harrass and abuse women. I am saying I have frequently witnessed instances at work where females talk about their sexuality in ways that males do not feel free to. There is an unspoken supposition that if a man mentions certain subjects in the presence of women, he will be tarred and feathered and hung out to dry with a pink slip before he is even given a chance to defend himself. I walk on eggshells at work - both because I know you can't be too comfortable in your job in this economy and because I am hyper sensitive to a climate that is ever ready to cry wolf against males.

    .
    OK, cowboy, here is something for you to think about. Rj and I were at a restaurant on the beach today; kids, families,infants, couples, you name it. And a guy right behind me said at the top of his lungs "SO I SAID WHAT THE HELL IS YOUR PROBLEM, DO YOU HAVE SAND IN YOUR VAGINA???".(the wind was blowing sand off the beach) And he and all his neanderthal friends thought that was hilarious. And then it was f*cking this and f*cking that. Every woman in the area left like a bad stain spreading. Women may sometimes talk about their periods or menopause and it's in no way "sexual". It's a health issue. What's normal? What's peri-menopause? We actually discuss all that intimate stuff with each other instead of slapping each other on the back and saying "How about them Yankees!" (which no Southerner would say, but that's just an example.)

    If men feel they can't address sex issues in discussion, well, maybe you should a)get all the male judges out of the justice system, and b)try to bond with your buddies beyond sports and home improvements. You've made your bed. Deal with it.

  23. #48
    Cyburbian dobopoq's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Zoning Goddess View post
    OK, cowboy, here is something for you to think about. Rj and I were at a restaurant on the beach today; kids, families,infants, couples, you name it. And a guy right behind me said at the top of his lungs "SO I SAID WHAT THE HELL IS YOUR PROBLEM, DO YOU HAVE SAND IN YOUR VAGINA???".(the wind was blowing sand off the beach) And he and all his neanderthal friends thought that was hilarious. And then it was f*cking this and f*cking that. Every woman in the area left like a bad stain spreading. Women may sometimes talk about their periods or menopause and it's in no way "sexual". It's a health issue. What's normal? What's peri-menopause? We actually discuss all that intimate stuff with each other instead of slapping each other on the back and saying "How about them Yankees!" (which no Southerner would say, but that's just an example.)

    If men feel they can't address sex issues in discussion, well, maybe you should a)get all the male judges out of the justice system, and b)try to bond with your buddies beyond sports and home improvements. You've made your bed. Deal with it.
    Zoning Goddess, thank you making a substantive comment - free of assaults on my character.

    Well it sounds like he was acting in a disrespectful manner. I don't act like that in public or hang with people who do. But obviously, this circumstance is far different than being at work in an office. You all were there as paying customers. If enough people complained, management would have removed the crass commenting male, but if no one seemed to bothered by it, management didn't want to kick them out because they were paying customers too. At work, everyone has to produce and behave appropriately to hold onto their job.

    The sexual comments I've heard from women at work - aren't about menstruation. That wouldn't bother me. I've heard young women talk about "getting a protein shot", ie - cumswallowing. I've heard one talk about her "boobs" and joke about how she ought to start up a business on the side, ie prostitution. I've seen the same women gush and oooooo and aaaaaah around the company president who is a male. And naturally the old guy appreciates the attention from young attractive females. I don't know if inwardly he looks down upon this, but on the surface it obviously elicits a positive response from him for the women who behave coquettishly toward him. I don't ever even remotely think about the possibility of acting in a flirtatious or sexually suggestive manner toward females who are above me in the company or on my level - let alone those who are below me. When I'm at work I feel I have to behave as if sex doesn't exist.

    Talking at work about cumswallowing, and referring to your breasts and likely ability to earn a living as a prostitute is what I would consider to be a form of female sexual harrassment of men. It's teasing men. It's not so much that we mind the bringing up of sexual issues, it is that we know it will not be accepted for us to talk about sex with the same freedom. Women know that men are always thinking about sex. Indeed, most men would prefer sex to work. But I would be laughed at if I complained about these women talking about cumswallowing in the workplace. Women know this, so they don't hold back from any fear of someone like me complaining. Men are slow to complain about things in general anyway - because of how they are socialized. And men love sex and would find the subject an enticing diversion from work. What actually bothers me about it is that if I engage these women in the subject of cumswallowing or start talking out loud with the same level of frankness I could easily find myself out of a job.

    Most women don't mention sex at work. But I feel that there is much less risk of censure/punishment/firing if they do talk openly about sex at work than if men do. Of course we don't view women who make sexual comments at work as potential rapists - since women can't really technically rape men. That is as it should be. But we are pretty quick to jump to the conclusion that racy comments from men could mean an intent to harass, or rape. So this is part of why there is a double standard. I'm not suggesting that we go back to the 60's when women were new in the workplace and men openly disparaged them and treated them like sex objects [ala Mad Men.] But after the 1990's and the Clarence Thomas/Anita Hill hearings, I think things have evolved to the point where men are always on edge. The word out on the street is that men had better be careful about everything they say. But I don't think women are constrained with nearly the same level of fear - to avoid all mention of the subject of sex or else risk being fired. Our country has more lawyers per capita than any other country by quite a margin. It's no surprise that we are trigger happy when it comes to lawsuits. So I attribute a lot of this double standard that men face in terms of sexual speech at work to the overly litigious nature of our current society. Oh - and also to our puritanical roots.
    Last edited by dobopoq; 05 Sep 2011 at 11:08 PM.
    "The current American way of life is founded not just on motor transportation but on the religion of the motorcar, and the sacrifices that people are prepared to make for this religion stand outside the realm of rational criticism." -Lewis Mumford

  24. #49
    Cyburbian
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    Quote Originally posted by dobopoq View post
    Of course we don't view women who make sexual comments at work as potential rapists - since women can't really technically rape men..
    Sure they can. It isn't anywhere near as common, but men are fairly often forced into sex by power inequalities, by inability to give consent (due to age, etc), and occasionally by force.

    Of course, then the treatment the legal system and society hits them with makes the nastiness women have to go through for the same issue look like a joyous cakewalk of support. So generally, the men in question just suffer and swallow their PTSD and whatnot in silence.

  25. #50
    Cyburbian dobopoq's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by JusticeZero View post
    Sure they can. It isn't anywhere near as common, but men are fairly often forced into sex by power inequalities, by inability to give consent (due to age, etc), and occasionally by force.

    Of course, then the treatment the legal system and society hits them with makes the nastiness women have to go through for the same issue look like a joyous cakewalk of support. So generally, the men in question just suffer and swallow their PTSD and whatnot in silence.
    Well plenty of men are raped by other men. And I gotta think that most of the time that female teachers bed a male student, it's not like they had to force themselves on the kid. That's generally statutory rape - not rape of the violent kind. But yes, there are instances where a female violently rapes a man with some sort of penetrative object, but I gotta believe such instances are a miniscule portion of all rapes. Domestic violence though, is something where a good deal of it is committed by wives; Somewhere btw 20 and 40% I'd say. Of course, in a lot of those relationships, both spouses are abusive.
    "The current American way of life is founded not just on motor transportation but on the religion of the motorcar, and the sacrifices that people are prepared to make for this religion stand outside the realm of rational criticism." -Lewis Mumford

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