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Thread: Parents teaching social gender specifics... or lack there of.

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    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Parents teaching social gender specifics... or lack there of.

    Do fathers teach their boys to be men and do mothers teach their daughters to be women anymore.

    My wife and I were talking about this as we were getting the nursery ready for boy #3 arriving next month. I roughhouse with the boys, we play with cars, trucks, army men, and I take them to sporting events like hockey and soccer games. I have also been teaching the oldest how to shoot for when he is old enough to go deer hunting. But I am also making sure that they learn to respect women, mostly by example. I always open the door for my wife, buy her flowers, and help out when-ever and where-ever I can. It is funny because my oldest has started opening he door for her too. He is only 4 but I think he is starting to understand.

    However, last week while we were at the local children's museum, I was appalled at the amount of disrespect that boy's were showing their mothers.

    On the flip side I have also seen how some mothers will actually discourage traditional gender specifics by telling their daughters that it is wrong for a guy to always open the door for a women.

    What are your thoughts. Are boys being taught to be proper men and are girls being taught to be elegant women? Or is that too old fashioned?
    The most foolish thing one can do this fall is to vote for Clinton or Trump. Wake up, get out of the matrix, and send a message to the political establishment that you won't play their game.

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    Super Moderator kjel's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    Do fathers teach their boys to be men and do mothers teach their daughters to be women anymore.

    My wife and I were talking about this as we were getting the nursery ready for boy #3 arriving next month. I roughhouse with the boys, we play with cars, trucks, army men, and I take them to sporting events like hockey and soccer games. I have also been teaching the oldest how to shoot for when he is old enough to go deer hunting. But I am also making sure that they learn to respect women, mostly by example. I always open the door for my wife, buy her flowers, and help out when-ever and where-ever I can. It is funny because my oldest has started opening he door for her too. He is only 4 but I think he is starting to understand.

    However, last week while we were at the local children's museum, I was appalled at the amount of disrespect that boy's were showing their mothers.

    On the flip side I have also seen how some mothers will actually discourage traditional gender specifics by telling their daughters that it is wrong for a guy to always open the door for a women.

    What are your thoughts. Are boys being taught to be proper men and are girls being taught to be elegant women? Or is that too old fashioned?
    I think manners in general have gone down the tubes. I don't think that it has to be divided into "proper men" or "elegant women". I think the focus should be on having well mannered and polite children that hopefully will carry good manners and social graces into their adulthood. I don't believe it should be dependent on a child's gender.
    "He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me?" Jeremiah 22:16

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    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    I cook and clean with my sons. I also am happy to play dress up with them. We build forts. We race cars. We do what they find fun. I don't say - no the pink car is for girls. I let them do what they find fun.

    I think the definition of social gender roles is pretty archaic. My wife makes more than I do. Should I teach my sons that they should work and their wives should be at home and tend the house? That would be pretty hypocritical of me.

    Honestly, I think we as a society worry about this too much. Teaching manners is one thing, teaching "social gender specific" manners is archaic. You should open the door because you care about other people, not because you are a man. You should help others because it is the right thing to do, not because you are a women. I teach my kids to not be selfish (the best that any parent can with a 4 y.o). If all kids in the world were just not "me" centered, they might end up doing things for others, being more kind, and caring, because it is nice. Who cares if they are boys or girls?
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    Cyburbian Plus dvdneal's avatar
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    I have two daughters so maybe I'm looking at the gender roles a little different, or not. I happy that my daughter wants to dress up as Captain America or play with cars or other typical boy things. She needs to know that she can do anything she wants in that regard and that jobs are not boy or girl jobs. On the other side, I need to teach the kids how to be a lady and what to expect from a gentleman. I think if they expect chivalry then they'll hopefully find guys that practice it and not some loser. I think we just need to take time as parents to teach our kids instead of hoping the school system and society will raise them. It's the little things like opening a door for someone that make life better.
    I don't pretend to understand Brannigan's Law. I merely enforce it.

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    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    A few thoughts...

    Stereotypical gender roles are reinforced more by popular culture/peer groups than by parents.

    Gender roles and manners are two vastly different topics.
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

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    Super Moderator kjel's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    Stereotypical gender roles are reinforced more by popular culture/peer groups than by parents.

    Gender roles and manners are two vastly different topics.
    Agreed. I found this study called the Pink & Blue Project to be quite fascinating http://www.brainpickings.org/index.p...-blue-project/.

    I teach my girls that everyone is worthy of being treated in a polite & respectful manner and is not dependent upon gender.
    "He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me?" Jeremiah 22:16

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    Cyburbian Midori's avatar
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    Agreed. It's more about manners and respect in general than gender roles. Holding a door open for a lady is a nice gesture, I guess, but as a lady, I always try to hold the door for anyone who might have trouble doing so (because of age, full hands, etc.) or for anyone coming into the building on my heels. It's just a simple awareness and friendly acknowledgement of other people around you.

    While I do find the buy-your-lady-flowers romanticism sweet, I've also seen it applied as an excuse for other shoddy behavior and a lack of true respect. I remember commenting to a friend on his father's extremely patriarchal attitude toward his mother, and he replied that she was the best-cared-for woman in the county. I could only think that she was cared for the way one cares for a pretty canary in a cage: He provided for her and bought her nice things, but he treated her more like a pet than an intellectual equal (which she was). That's not respect.

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    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    What I am talking about is more than just manners. For example, going back to the report where the majority of woman still find it ok for the guy to pay for a date. In regards to women making more than men, I think that if a wife wants to work, that is awesome. Right now, my wife and I make just about the same, and I have no problem with that. However, I know that my wife also wants to be a say at home mom, so I have been doing extra projects so we can pay off the last of our debt. Then she can do as she chooses. Personally, I think that it is the guys responsiblit to allow his wife to make that choice. But in the end, it needs to be her choice, not his.
    The most foolish thing one can do this fall is to vote for Clinton or Trump. Wake up, get out of the matrix, and send a message to the political establishment that you won't play their game.

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    Cyburbian dw914er's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    What are your thoughts. Are boys being taught to be proper men and are girls being taught to be elegant women? Or is that too old fashioned?
    Quote Originally posted by dvdneal View post
    On the other side, I need to teach the kids how to be a lady and what to expect from a gentleman. I think if they expect chivalry then they'll hopefully find guys that practice it and not some loser.
    Whenever I have kids, I will probably do what dvdneal wants to do. I think my focus will be geared towards having my children show respect and courtesy for other people, and have them be able to identify those who also show respect and courtesy. So, in a sense, I will teach some of the values from acting like a lady and gentlemen but I do not think that this necessarily means that my son should be a "proper man" or my daughter be an "elegant woman." As far as gender roles, I am sure that my daughter and son will be out in the garage with me working on my old Porsche

    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    Personally, I think that it is the guys responsibility to allow his wife to make that choice. But in the end, it needs to be her choice, not his.
    There are stay at home dads as well... I feel like the choice should be between both adults, not just one.
    And that concludes staff’s presentation...

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    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    Personally, I think that it is the guys responsiblit to allow his wife to make that choice. But in the end, it needs to be her choice, not his.
    Yep that is where you lose most millennials. I don't think it is one sides responsibility to support the other. It is a group decision. If I decided I didn' t want to work, it isn't just me that is affected. My wife would then have to be the only breadwinner. The same goes for if my wife wanted to quit.

    The days of the man making the money, and the women cleaning the house are gone - well except for some household that hold past concepts as near and dear. You know like Proverbs 31 type of people....
    Last edited by Hink; 10 Sep 2013 at 1:15 PM.
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    Cyburbian Plus dvdneal's avatar
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    For my family support is an equal thing. My wife supported me financially while I went to school and now I support her while she's working at building her home business.

    I do think that what michaelskis is saying is right, chivalry is not old fashioned and should be taught. It's more than the good manners and courtesy that we all have. It's going the extra mile. When I used to date I would always bring flowers or at least a rose (I still do with my wife just not as often as I should). I can't count the number of ladies that say things like, no one's ever brought me flowers. Really? What kind of men are you dating and how can I make sure my daughters don't end up with men like that. I don't think it's a gender role - although it is gender specific. I'm not sure how to explain it, but it's the little things that show you are a quality person and will give up a chair for a lady, open a door, or even just stand up when a lady enters the room. It's just part of owning a man card in my opinion.
    I don't pretend to understand Brannigan's Law. I merely enforce it.

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    Super Moderator kjel's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hink View post
    Yep that is where you lose most millennials. I don't think it is one sides responsibility to support the other. It is a group decision. If I decided I didn' t want to work, it isn't just me that is affected. My wife would then have to be the only breadwinner. The same goes for if my wife wanted to quit.

    The days of the man making the money, and the women cleaning the house are gone - well except for some household that hold past concepts as near and dear. You know like Proverbs 31 type of people....
    The lines have definitely blurred. I am the breadwinner and do not want to be a stay at home mom. My partner is a stay at home dad for a variety of reasons. It was a decision that was made jointly for the good of our family.
    "He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me?" Jeremiah 22:16

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    Cyburbian Wannaplan?'s avatar
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    My wife makes more money than I do, and I never had a problem with that. I work with some men who complain that their wife makes more than they do. I never understood that. She makes MORE money! MORE is good, isn't it?!

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    Cyburbian WSU MUP Student's avatar
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    When my wife was working, she made about triple what I make but when we had a child we decided that she would be the one to stay home. I don't recall how we came to that decision however, just that I didn't get to be the one staying home with our daughter. Personally, I say DOWN WITH TRADITIONAL GENDER ROLES!

    I am a man and I would have absolutely zero qualms about being a stay-at-home-dad. If my daughter grew up and got married and her partner decided to be a stay-at-home type person, and they could support themselves on the one remaining income, I would have no issues with that either
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    Cyburbian otterpop's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Wannaplan? View post
    My wife makes more money than I do, and I never had a problem with that. I work with some men who complain that their wife makes more than they do. I never understood that. She makes MORE money! MORE is good, isn't it?!
    Especially if the wife spends a little on them. Sign me up for being a "trophy husband."
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    Cyburbian terraplnr's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hink View post
    Yep that is where you lose most millennials. I don't think it is one sides responsibility to support the other. It is a group decision. If I decided I didn' t want to work, it isn't just me that is affected. My wife would then have to be the only breadwinner. The same goes for if my wife wanted to quit.

    The days of the man making the money, and the women cleaning the house are gone - well except for some household that hold past concepts as near and dear. You know like Proverbs 31 type of people....
    I totally agree about the family unit/group decision. On the flip side of the stay at home parent,, if one of the spouses works too much, it's the whole family that's affected, as well. My husband has basically worked three jobs this summer, all of which had their purpose, but it's just too much and causes so much stress, since I work full-time too. Fortunately he wasn't doing it because he is a workaholic, but it was because he didn't want to say no in case he might close off future options. As much as the days of the wife automatically staying home are over, so are the days of the husband automatically working 80 hours a week. Life-family balance.

    Back on topic... I honestly haven't thought about teaching my son "gender specific" manners like holding open doors for ladies, but we work constantly on teaching manners, treating people respectfully, acknowledging gifts, being a good friend, helping as part of the family, holding the door for people when they need help, etc. I do want him to be a date-worthy guy when he's old enough, though... have to start teaching him about picking out nice flowers!

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    Cyburbian wahday's avatar
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    For me, “proper man” and “elegant woman” are pretty fluid concepts that change and shift over time. I think everyone could use to cultivate a more refined side. You don’t need to act that way all the time, but its important to know what they are and how to use those skills. I work on the site of a senior housing complex. You can bet I build up a lot of social equity when I hold doors for those old ladies and call those old me “sir” while patiently listening to their stories!

    More and more I feel we are headed to a time where the “properness” of behavior is less gender-specific. Holding the door for someone older is ALWAYS good form, whether you are a woman or a man. Supporting a partner, regardless of gender, while they go back to school or raise the kids, or start a business will always be a noble undertaking. I don’t think these need to be tied to a gender (though personally I do some of these myself and so am probably teaching my children without being aware)

    At the same time, I do think we are becoming a less formal society. That is a little lamentable, but I think it goes hand-in-hand with the pursuit of equality. I once read someone discussing why it was so hard these days to get kids to just “speak when spoken to” and generally be obedient and not question everything. The author’s response was that once women were liberated in the household, there was no longer a model for subservience for children to follow. Mom doesn’t just shut up and do what dad says anymore. Why should I? I think that is a very astute view and the rest of the book (which is about discipline) focuses on the need to create a new form and approach to discipline and behavior.
    The purpose of life is a life of purpose

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    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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