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Thread: The NEVERENDING Economics Thread

  1. #1
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    The NEVERENDING Economics Thread

    We have several other threads on economics, but being that economics has a direct impact on everything we do, I think it is time to start a never ending thread.

    So to start it out, what is your viewpoint on economic models? Do you follow Keynesian Economics or do you believe in the Austrian School of economics? Can a truly free market society work, or is government intervention a requirement? If so, how much influence should a government have?

    Even more so, what would happen if there was a drastic economic shift? Under the GW Bush presidency, we saw several corporations and banks that needed a bail out. Now we see entire countries that also need an economic bail out. What about personal bail-outs instead of bankruptcy? Is any one person or corporation truly too big to fail?

    On a personal level, if we all stopped borrowing money today, would our economy implode? What if it was a slow decrease away from borrowing money, would that have the same impact?

    What are your thoughts on all of this economic controversy regarding national bailouts in Europe? How does a country get into that situation in the first place?
    "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. Time makes more converts than reason." - Thomas Paine Common Sense.

  2. #2
    Super Moderator kjel's avatar
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    I can't.
    "He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me?" Jeremiah 22:16

  3. #3
    Cyburbian ofos's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by kjel View post
    I can't.
    I can't either. Econ 101 made my eyes glaze over, just like this thread. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
    “Death comes when memories of the past exceed the vision for the future.”

  4. #4
    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    I had a class in microeconomics about 25 years ago. I seem to recall looking at tables with names like 'guns and butter', and hearing terms like 'utils' and 'inputs', but quite honestly I probably don't remember enough of that arcane economic theory crap to put on a 3" x 5" card. If I feel tempted to post on the topic I probably oughta do so on a different thread.

    I found some notes on the topic here.
    Last edited by Maister; 11 Jun 2012 at 10:54 AM.
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

  5. #5
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    I say we just go back to the gold standard and then we won't have to worry about this economic stuff....
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  6. #6
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Wow...

    I thought that this group would have an above average understanding of economics.

    If you want to have some information on it, I would suggest the following books to provide a foundational understanding.
    The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money
    The Theory of Money and Credit
    Wealth of Nations
    Principles of Economics
    A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy

    Maister's link is funny because it shows economics as pure math... but in reality it is a social, cultural, mathematical, and personal discipline (or lack of discipline for the Keynesian Economists.)
    "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. Time makes more converts than reason." - Thomas Paine Common Sense.

  7. #7
    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    Wow...

    I thought that this group would have an above average understanding of economics.
    What can we say, folks like kjel, Hink, ofos, and me are just intellectual lightweights compared to you.
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

  8. #8
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Maister View post
    What can we say, folks like kjel, Hink, ofos, and me are just intellectual lightweights compared to you.
    I am unable to tie my shoes without help. It's the swoop part that gets me.

    Mski I actually believe that many of us have a very high understanding of economics, we just don't wish to have this discussion yet again. It is very clear your perspective. We get it. I would have a discussion about it again, if I thought that something would change your mind. But I am very sure that isn't going to happen. So why keep discussing items that have no conclusion or resolve?

    This will end up - Keynesian vs. everything else. And in your mind that is wrong versus right, instead of trying to actually understand why any system functions the way it does. It is threads like this that frustrate many people, and why many stay out of the political discussions.
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  9. #9
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Maister View post
    What can we say, folks like kjel, Hink, ofos, and me are just intellectual lightweights compared to you.
    Either that or you are afraid to answer the questions. I know that you have a good understanding on one side of economics and I believe that we have all taken at least some level of economics to become planners.

    Quote Originally posted by Hink View post
    I am unable to tie my shoes without help. It's the swoop part that gets me.

    Mski I actually believe that many of us have a very high understanding of economics, we just don't wish to have this discussion yet again. It is very clear your perspective. We get it. I would have a discussion about it again, if I thought that something would change your mind. But I am very sure that isn't going to happen. So why keep discussing items that have no conclusion or resolve?

    This will end up - Keynesian vs. everything else. And in your mind that is wrong versus right, instead of trying to actually understand why any system functions the way it does. It is threads like this that frustrate many people, and why many stay out of the political discussions.
    I ask questions without any resolve because informative discussion without personal attacks is one of the biggest keys to critical thinking. If we only talked about particular topics with people who have the exact same frame of mind, then no one would ever know anything beyond their own shadow.

    A search of “economics” resulted in discussions within different threads. Given the economic conditions both here and in Europe, I personally believe it is a viable topic for discussion. Why do you say it will be a Keynesian vs. everything? I even provided a wide range of book options for people to brush up on their understanding of different economic viewpoints.
    Just so I have this right, it is not the question that was asked, but who asked the question?

    Maybe I should have posted a poll.
    "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. Time makes more converts than reason." - Thomas Paine Common Sense.

  10. #10
    Cyburbian ofos's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    Either that or you are afraid to answer the questions. I know that you have a good understanding on one side of economics and I believe that we have all taken at least some level of economics to become planners.



    I ask questions without any resolve because informative discussion without personal attacks is one of the biggest keys to critical thinking. If we only talked about particular topics with people who have the exact same frame of mind, then no one would ever know anything beyond their own shadow.

    A search of “economics” resulted in discussions within different threads. Given the economic conditions both here and in Europe, I personally believe it is a viable topic for discussion. Why do you say it will be a Keynesian vs. everything? I even provided a wide range of book options for people to brush up on their understanding of different economic viewpoints.
    Just so I have this right, it is not the question that was asked, but who asked the question?

    Maybe I should have posted a poll.
    Do you really think that this topic fits the description of the FAC, i.e., "Off-topic forum: general chatter, great thoughts, mindless rambling, and frank exchanges of views on less-than-cosmic topics"? I don't. This is not a personal attack, I just don't want to waste what little intellectual capital I may have acquired in an unending polemic of economic theories. Or, what Hink said.
    “Death comes when memories of the past exceed the vision for the future.”

  11. #11
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by ofos View post
    Do you really think that this topic fits the description of the FAC, i.e., "Off-topic forum: general chatter, great thoughts, mindless rambling, and frank exchanges of views on less-than-cosmic topics"? I don't. This is not a personal attack, I just don't want to waste what little intellectual capital I may have acquired in an unending polemic of economic theories. Or, what Hink said.
    I personally to think it belongs here, even though it might be a frank exchange of views on a slightly cosmic topic, and is indirectly planning related. But if you don't want to respond, it is alright. I am not going to make anyone post on here. It is totally up to them.

    It is even more so where in my opening post, I did not express a view point on the topic one way or another but instead asked people for their thoughts, ideas, and opinions on a very relevant topic. Not only am I genuinely interested in what other people have to say about the topic, I am curious why they think that way as well, even if it is in total opposition to my own views on the subject.
    "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. Time makes more converts than reason." - Thomas Paine Common Sense.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    I personally to think it belongs here, even though it might be a frank exchange of views on a slightly cosmic topic, and is indirectly planning related. But if you don't want to respond, it is alright. I am not going to make anyone post on here. It is totally up to them.

    It is even more so where in my opening post, I did not express a view point on the topic one way or another but instead asked people for their thoughts, ideas, and opinions on a very relevant topic. Not only am I genuinely interested in what other people have to say about the topic, I am curious why they think that way as well, even if it is in total opposition to my own views on the subject.
    Yeah, but you keep bringing up the same topics over and over again. It's either economics or state's rights. We get it. You're an anti-government libertarian. You are who you are. It's just gets tiring beating the same horse into mush time and time again.
    When did I go from Luke Skywalker to Obi-Wan Kenobi?

  13. #13
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Whose Yur Planner View post
    Yeah, but you keep bringing up the same topics over and over again. It's either economics or state's rights. We get it. You're an anti-government libertarian. You are who you are. It's just gets tiring beating the same horse into mush time and time again.
    So once again, it is not the question but who asked it?

    I personally do not know your stance on economic theory. What do you believe? Do you think the economy would crumble if everyone (business, people, governments..) stoppled borrowing money today?

    Tell you what. I will not make any statements about others view points regarding Economics beyond asking them for more detail or why they beleive one way or another. I will not even post my opinion as people assume that they already know what it is.

    And no, I am not anti-government. I am anti excessive government. MASSIVE difference.
    "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. Time makes more converts than reason." - Thomas Paine Common Sense.

  14. #14
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    Just so I have this right, it is not the question that was asked, but who asked the question?
    Unfortunately in this case, yes. If it were someone whom I felt would be willing to have an open discussion about trickle down, Reagan, and why it doesn't exactly function as it is marketed, then I would love to have that discussion. But since we have rode this horse before, I know that it will end up being that you say you know what you believe and that no one can change that. Which in essence finishes any substantive dialog we could have had.

    I am always one to jump in political threads, mainly because I enjoy the political system and think that both sides are stupid. I think I come from a pretty fair middle perspective. I am always willing to have the discussion if it substantive. Unfortunately in this case I don't know how you can expect to have the same discussion again with a different outcome. I respect your perspective, but don't pretend that you are flexible in your thinking, when most discussions end with you stating that you know what is true. That is what people are taking issue with. Not the topic.
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  15. #15
    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    Mskis, all joking aside, Hink pretty much spelled it out - it is frustrating for almost all parties concerned when folks are only interested in polemics.

    Let me make something very clear, there is nothing you, or anyone else in this forum board is going to say that will change my mind on this matter. I think it is morally, ethically, and constitutionally wrong and based on my conversation with my friend, the US Council of Bishops has already stated that they will challenge this. The office of the Pope noted that they will have the full backing of the Vatican.
    You are all welcome to your own opinions, but I still personally believe that government regulated marriage is an infringement on my personal rights. I personally think that for the past 100 years, the government's control on peoples lives has gotten out of hand and is going to progressively get worse, regardless of who wins in November. I will continue to express my opinion but I am not going to waste the effort arguing with people about it.
    'Critical thinking' necessarily entails a willingness to entertain the possibility that one might be wrong. I think most here are understandibly skeptical there's going to be any reciprocity on that account where you are concerned. And yes, I agree it is a viable topic for discussion, even if introduced by someone holding an opposing viewpoint. That person, however, is going to have to share a commitment to critical thinking, or it will turn into little more than polemics.
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

  16. #16
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Maister View post
    And yes, I agree it is a viable topic for discussion, even if introduced by someone holding an opposing viewpoint. That person, however, is going to have to share a commitment to critical thinking, or it will turn into little more than polemics.
    Thanks for clearing that up for me. People avoid the question because I asked it... not because of the question asked. You are correct. When it comes to particular things regarding my faith, I am unwavering. When people argue with my beliefs, I defend them. But there is also a difference between questioning and arguing.

    I will keep the questions open for those who do want to answer. No where did I negate one side or the other, nor have I pushed my viewpoints of the idea onto anyone else. In fact, I often question my own thoughts on the subject and have yet to find a nice clean box of ideas or economic theories that I totally agree with.

    *** edit.. in both of those cases, I was defending my point of view after being attacked. I have made it a point not to post my point of view but instead encourage others to express theirs. ***
    Last edited by michaelskis; 11 Jun 2012 at 2:27 PM.
    "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. Time makes more converts than reason." - Thomas Paine Common Sense.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    And no, I am not anti-government. I am anti excessive government. MASSIVE difference.
    What is in your mind, excessive government. Does it make a difference, in your mind, whether it's federal or state government or local for that matter?
    Last edited by Whose Yur Planner; 11 Jun 2012 at 1:54 PM.
    When did I go from Luke Skywalker to Obi-Wan Kenobi?

  18. #18
    Cyburbian
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    I find this topic interesting and would be willing to engage in a discussion of it, but the previous comments have me worried that it will devolve into a one against all fight, which doesn't interest me...
    I guess I wonder what your motivation for starting the thread is. Do you just want to exchange ideas? Are you trying to convert people to libertarianism?

  19. #19
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Whose Yur Planner View post
    What is in your mind, excessive government. Does it make a difference, in your mind, whether it's federal or state government or local for that matter?
    Off-topic:

    Absolutely. There are tons of things that I would support at a state level that I don't support at a federal level including energy consumption and production regulations including MPG or smog testing, state income taxes, state funding for education (no child left behind is a joke), and collect state income taxes.

    There is still several things that the Federal Government can do. They are explained in Article 1, sections 8, 9, and 10 of the Constitution. Additionally there is a list of things that each state can not do, that the federal government needs to do. "Coin" money for example cannot be done by the states.

    But that is better discussed in the never ending political thread...
    Last edited by michaelskis; 11 Jun 2012 at 2:28 PM.
    "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. Time makes more converts than reason." - Thomas Paine Common Sense.

  20. #20
    Cyburbian Planit's avatar
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    My Personal Economics Viewpoint

    If I have money, it is good.
    If I don't have money, it is bad.
    I do not have enough money to bail out Europe.
    "Whatever beer I'm drinking, is better than the one I'm not." DMLW
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  21. #21
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by jhenry View post
    I find this topic interesting and would be willing to engage in a discussion of it, but the previous comments have me worried that it will devolve into a one against all fight, which doesn't interest me...
    I guess I wonder what your motivation for starting the thread is. Do you just want to exchange ideas? Are you trying to convert people to libertarianism?
    To better understand the thoughts of other people and why they think that way. I apologize for the other posters raising concerns that I posted these questions instead of answering the questions and expressing their thoughts, ideas, and comments on economic theory.


    Quote Originally posted by Planit View post
    If I have money, it is good.
    If I don't have money, it is bad.
    I do not have enough money to bail out Europe.
    Can you expand on that?
    "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. Time makes more converts than reason." - Thomas Paine Common Sense.

  22. #22
    Why can't we have the same tax rates we had at end of Ronald Reagan's term?

  23. #23
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Gotta Speakup View post
    Why can't we have the same tax rates we had at end of Ronald Reagan's term?
    Can you expand on that question? Are you talking about marginal, average, or effective tax rates? Also what would the resulting impact on the US economy and the global economy.
    "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. Time makes more converts than reason." - Thomas Paine Common Sense.

  24. #24
    Current tax rates, certainly marginal income tax rates are lower than they were in Reagan's administration. (I'm not sure about capital gains). Reagan is the hero to many conservatives. So what is the argument against those rates?

    I understand that the current economy could not handle a tax increase of that magnitude. But in the long run as a way to allow the government to balance its budget and pay its bills, what is the problem with what Reagan gave us? Not sharing that particular political/economic perspective, im curious to hear what those arguments might be.

    For those not aware of this issue, the rates at the end of Reagan's term (even the ones before Reagan raised taxes) were substantially higher than today's rates and if we had the tax rates we had in 1988, there would be no deficit today.

  25. #25
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    Wow...

    I thought that this group would have an above average understanding of economics.

    ...... (or lack of discipline for the Keynesian Economists.)
    Maybe people just aren't interested in discussing something with somebody who clearly has an agenda.
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

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