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Thread: Political Hot Potato - Abortion

  1. #26
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    That is typical... People don't want to dispute the issue so the attack my spelling, grammar, and a document reference, even though you knew exactly what I was saying. What next, will you tell me that my shoes are ugly too?

    As for the word murder... When one person intentionally take the life of another, it is called murder.
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

  2. #27
    Super Moderator kjel's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by wahday View post
    Well, I stumbled into this room, decided I shouldn't be here, but keep poking my head in to see how its going. Now I feel compelled to chime in. Nothing earth shattering here, but just my two cents.

    Another way to view the abortion issues is that while one would like for it not to ever be a decision anyone has to make, the fact is that women do get pregnant and, regardless of whether abortion is illegal or not, they do seek them out. The reasons are many and I don’t pretend to understand what it feels like to be in this situation (or a woman). But whether you feel it is just or not, it definitely happens. So, one response society can make is “given these realities, we want to ensure that people have access to safe and regulated services.” And I think that is what the current law does. Making abortion illegal again is not going to stop them from happening.

    At some point, on this and other issues, I believe societies have to reconcile how they WISH their communities behaved with how they ACTUALLY act and make sure that legislation protects as many of them as it can for the good of all. Some will say this is the same as condoning the behavior and will encourage more, but I don’t see it that way. And unfortunately we really don’t have the stats to know if abortion being illegal would change much (not many accurate figures on pre-1973 illegal abortions). I see it is devising laws that are geared toward how people actually behave and not how we wish they would.
    My grandmother was an OB/GYN from about 1930 to 1978. This is one of the services she provided. Not because she was for or against it but the alternative was often unsafe and life threatening. She also helped arrange 1000+ adoptions during her career, including mine. My birth mother was her patient and said that in her situation in 1973 that she was treated by her with compassion and kindness, not judgment and scorn. No matter what legislation is on the books, what insurance coverage/service mandates we have, etc. there will still be women (and the men involved) that find themselves in a situation of an unintended or unplanned pregnancy, not to mention those that have complicated pregnancies.
    "He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me?" Jeremiah 22:16

  3. #28
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    That is typical... People don't want to dispute the issue so the attack my spelling, grammar, and a document reference, even though you knew exactly what I was saying. What next, will you tell me that my shoes are ugly too?
    What is typical is for someone with narcissistic tendencies to gloss over something very important as an attack. In a rational debate, you must have a clear set of facts as a beginning point. Mistaking the Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, with the Declaration of Independence that has no legal ramifications is pretty damned important. Spelling? Grammar? Forget it... no one did that. They corrected two important facts that you had incorrect to make arguments valid.

    Shoes? This whole statement by you is clownshoes, Mike.

    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    As for the word murder... When one person intentionally take the life of another, it is called murder.
    Wrong. You can call it what you want, but it's nothing but a red herring. The common law elements of murder are thus:
    1. Unlawful
    2. killing
    3. of a human
    4. by another human
    5. with malice aforethought
    Abortion is legal, therefore it is not murder. End of argument. Even if I agree that a "human" is created at conception (I do not), it's still not murder. Get it? Not murder. To keep putting it in your replies helps you naught in arguing your case, no matter how you happen to feel about it.
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  4. #29
    Cyburbian SW MI Planner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Mastiff View post
    The common law elements of murder are thus:
    1. Unlawful
    2. killing
    3. of a human
    4. by another human
    5. with malice aforethought
    Just out of curiousity, is this a legal definition of murder? I don't disagree with it at all, just wondering if "unlawful" should be a criteria, and trying to think if there are any other instances where killing someone and meeting all of the other criteria WOULD be legal. Just for discussion sake.

  5. #30
    Cyburbian wahday's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by SW MI Planner View post
    Just out of curiousity, is this a legal definition of murder? I don't disagree with it at all, just wondering if "unlawful" should be a criteria, and trying to think if there are any other instances where killing someone and meeting all of the other criteria WOULD be legal. Just for discussion sake.
    Since we're into semantics...

    This is from the “Legal Dictionary.” There is a difference between homicide (which is one person killing another) and murder (or manslaughter) which is an illegal killing:

    Although the term homicide is sometimes used synonymously with murder, homicide is broader in scope than murder. Murder is a form of criminal homicide; other forms of homicide might not constitute criminal acts. These homicides are regarded as justified or excusable. For example, individuals may, in a necessary act of Self-Defense, kill a person who threatens them with death or serious injury, or they may be commanded or authorized by law to kill a person who is a member of an enemy force or who has committed a serious crime. Typically, the circumstances surrounding a killing determine whether it is criminal.
    The purpose of life is a life of purpose

  6. #31
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by SW MI Planner View post
    Just out of curiousity, is this a legal definition of murder? I don't disagree with it at all, just wondering if "unlawful" should be a criteria, and trying to think if there are any other instances where killing someone and meeting all of the other criteria WOULD be legal. Just for discussion sake.
    Murder is defined by many jurisdictions in the U.S., mainly Federal, State, and Military. Generally, the jurisdiction decides if a homicide has occurred, and if it has, what statute is germane, if any. What I posted is the common law definition that began in Britain and was adopted by the U.S. All states use it except Louisiana, which is based on Napoleonic law. Common law is based on elements and precedents, so they evolve based on case law, making state statutes unique. In Michigan, for example, the definition of first degree murder is:

    750.316 First degree murder; penalty; definitions.

    Sec. 316.

    (1) A person who commits any of the following is guilty of first degree murder and shall be punished by imprisonment for life:

    (a) Murder perpetrated by means of poison, lying in wait, or any other willful, deliberate, and premeditated killing.

    (b) Murder committed in the perpetration of, or attempt to perpetrate, arson, criminal sexual conduct in the first, second, or third degree, child abuse in the first degree, a major controlled substance offense, robbery, carjacking, breaking and entering of a dwelling, home invasion in the first or second degree, larceny of any kind, extortion, kidnapping, vulnerable adult abuse in the first and second degree under section 145n, torture under section 85, or aggravated stalking under section 411i.

    (c) A murder of a peace officer or a corrections officer committed while the peace officer or corrections officer is lawfully engaged in the performance of any of his or her duties as a peace officer or corrections officer, knowing that the peace officer or corrections officer is a peace officer or corrections officer engaged in the performance of his or her duty as a peace officer or corrections officer.
    http://law.onecle.com/michigan/750-m...l-750-316.html

    If you follow the cite, you can see all the case law and changes over the years. In addition to first degree, there is second degree and manslaughter charges. So, that's the muddy answer, but I never passed the bar, so I'm no attorney. I can tell you this, though. Michigan considers the willful killing of a quick child (a fetus that has developed to such a stage that it moves within the womb of the mother) by injury to the mother or from intended medical procedure to be manslaughter, not murder.
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  7. #32
    Cyburbian SW MI Planner's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by wahday View post
    Since we're into semantics...

    This is from the “Legal Dictionary.” There is a difference between homicide (which is one person killing another) and murder (or manslaughter) which is an illegal killing:

    (snip) Typically, the circumstances surrounding a killing determine whether it is criminal. (snip)
    Apparently I deal too much with people that try to pick apart the ordinances to get their own way, so yes, I am into semantics Actually for some reasons I was going in circles trying to grasp how murder could be lawful and further how it be could be defined as such, so thanks to both you and Mastiff for the information.

  8. #33
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by SW MI Planner View post
    Apparently I deal too much with people that try to pick apart the ordinances to get their own way, so yes, I am into semantics Actually for some reasons I was going in circles trying to grasp how murder could be lawful and further how it be could be defined as such, so thanks to both you and Mastiff for the information.
    To give you an easy example of what you asked, how could one fit all criteria but "unlawful", you simply need to go to any death penalty state.
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  9. #34
    Cyburbian Otis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Mastiff View post
    To give you an easy example of what you asked, how could one fit all criteria but "unlawful", you simply need to go to any death penalty state.
    Or better, look at any killing in self defense. Legal. Or go to any battlefield; killing there is legal, too. I certainly hope that all the anti-abortion people are conscientious objectors and refuse to bear arms or go to war.

  10. #35
    Cyburbian Plus dandy_warhol's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Otis View post
    Or better, look at any killing in self defense. Legal. Or go to any battlefield; killing there is legal, too. I certainly hope that all the anti-abortion people are conscientious objectors and refuse to bear arms or go to war.
    Silly, Otis. That kind of murder is ok because God is on our side!

  11. #36
    Cyburbian Otis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by dandy_warhol View post
    Silly, Otis. That kind of murder is ok because God is on our side!
    Well, smite me hip and thigh! My mistake.

  12. #37
    Cyburbian HomerJ's avatar
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    Very well.

    Abortions for some...miniature American flags for others...

    Problem solved.
    Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.

  13. #38
    Cyburbian Planit's avatar
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    Part of me thinks mskis just likes to stir the pot and get everyone in a tizzy.
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  14. #39
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Planit View post
    Part of me thinks mskis just likes to stir the pot and get everyone in a tizzy.
    I wish that was true, and if it was, I am sure that a mod would give me a warning.


    As for the definition of Murder, I imagine you are correct. I have not looked it up to verify it, nor will I. I use the term with the biblical connotation as referenced in the 6th commandment as that is the foundation of my personal decision. The laws that we create can be wrong. Abortion was illegal before Row v Wade.

    Is there anyone in here that feels that abortion is also overused in today's society as a form of birth control? What do you feel can be done to better educate people (both men and women) as a way to pregnancies from occurring in the first place?
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

  15. #40
    Cyburbian
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    I wish that was true, and if it was, I am sure that a mod would give me a warning.


    As for the definition of Murder, I imagine you are correct. I have not looked it up to verify it, nor will I. I use the term with the biblical connotation as referenced in the 6th commandment as that is the foundation of my personal decision.
    This coming from the Old Testament where infanticide was a common occurrence. Simply put, even the Bible leaves abortion as a gray area.

    Is there anyone in here that feels that abortion is also overused in today's society as a form of birth control? What do you feel can be done to better educate people (both men and women) as a way to pregnancies from occurring in the first place?
    I'm in no position to say whether it's overused or not since it is a personal decision. I will say that abstinence only education has proven ineffective for reducing pregnancies though.

  16. #41
    Cyburbian stroskey's avatar
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    My reasoning against abortion is not based on religion. I am adopted so I see what can become of unwanted children if they are given a chance to live and grow.
    I burned down the church to atone for my transgressions.

  17. #42
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    Is there anyone in here that feels that abortion is also overused in today's society as a form of birth control? What do you feel can be done to better educate people (both men and women) as a way to pregnancies from occurring in the first place?
    In my opinion, the notion that women are making a decision to forego all other forms of birth control with the thought that they could just have an abortion if they got pregnant is ludicrous. Again, just my opinion.

    I can't imagine a women sitting around thinking "You know what, screw condoms, IUDs, the birth control pill, the morning after pill, etc. If I get pregnant I'll just pay for an abortion".

    Yes, abortion is birth control because it is ending a pregnancy. But I don't think it's a proactive decision.

    They way to reduce abortions is through sex education and empowering women (and men) to make confident choices about their sexual activities.
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  18. #43
    Cyburbian zman's avatar
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    I defer to the Western Sage Edward Abbey on this one:

    “Abolition of a woman's right to abortion, when and if she wants it, amounts to compulsory maternity: a form of rape by the State.”
    ― Edward Abbey


    I'd like to see Conservatives care more about the kids after they are born, frankly.
    You get all squeezed up inside/Like the days were carved in stone/You get all wired up inside/And it's bad to be alone

    You can go out, you can take a ride/And when you get out on your own/You get all smoothed out inside/And it's good to be alone
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  19. #44
    Cyburbian stroskey's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by zman View post
    I defer to the Western Sage Edward Abbey on this one:

    “Abolition of a woman's right to abortion, when and if she wants it, amounts to compulsory maternity: a form of rape by the State.”
    ― Edward Abbey


    I'd like to see Conservatives care more about the kids after they are born, frankly.
    I'll try to not get political but that quote is pointless. The state did not make her have sex nor did it make her pregnant. A related question might be since the state does not allow doctors to kill someone in excruciating pain does that mean the state is committing torture?

    To your second point, while people often repeat this line, it really has nothing to do with abortion. When you say "care about the kids" I think you mean "provide them with social and monetary benefits their parents won't". This isn't the correct forum but why do you want the government out of your "medical decision" but then welcome the arms of the government otherwise?
    I burned down the church to atone for my transgressions.

  20. #45
    Cyburbian beach_bum's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    I can't imagine a women sitting around thinking "You know what, screw condoms, IUDs, the birth control pill, the morning after pill, etc. If I get pregnant I'll just pay for an abortion".
    This is true, taking birth control pills for example vs. having an abortion as a form of birth control is like comparing taking simple pain meds to amputation for pain relief. No one wants to have an abortion, its like choosing surgery over a pill! Most unwanted preganancies are a result of not having access to simple inexpensive birth control methods and lack of education about them. Planned Parenthood provides those services along with other women's health screenings.
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  21. #46
    Cyburbian otterpop's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    In my opinion, the notion that women are making a decision to forego all other forms of birth control with the thought that they could just have an abortion if they got pregnant is ludicrous. Again, just my opinion.

    They way to reduce abortions is through sex education and empowering women (and men) to make confident choices about their sexual activities.
    Given the amazing effectiveness of birth control in this present day, I think in many cases unwanted pregnancies result from men and women not taking the responsbility for their sexual activities. If you use one of the tried and true methods, the chance of pregnancy is greatly reduced (in the 1-5 percent range). Yes, even the best birth control fails sometimes. If it fails, then hard decisions have to be made. Crossing my fingers - 11 years and counting beating those slim odds by using an effective method.

    Ignorance or Irresponsibility can lead to someone having to make an unnecessary moral choice.

    Birth control is only one aspect of the abortion discussion.
    "I am very good at reading women, but I get into trouble for using the Braille method."

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  22. #47
    Cyburbian zman's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by stroskey View post
    I'll try to not get political but that quote is pointless. The state did not make her have sex nor did it make her pregnant. A related question might be since the state does not allow doctors to kill someone in excruciating pain does that mean the state is committing torture?

    To your second point, while people often repeat this line, it really has nothing to do with abortion. When you say "care about the kids" I think you mean "provide them with social and monetary benefits their parents won't". This isn't the correct forum but why do you want the government out of your "medical decision" but then welcome the arms of the government otherwise?
    I agree that the quote is not a comprehensive assessment of the abortion issue, merely a different viewpoint on the subject. As a corellary, the state did not force a man to rape the woman who got pregnant through male aggression... so why is it solely an issue of a woman being promiscuous?


    As for caring about the kids after birth, Republican austerity measures to kill education, head start, health care, prenatal care, etc. is what I am talking about. And often it isn't a question of "providing them with social and monetary benefits because the parents won't (seriously?) it is often because the parents can't
    You get all squeezed up inside/Like the days were carved in stone/You get all wired up inside/And it's bad to be alone

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  23. #48
    Cyburbian dw914er's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    Is there anyone in here that feels that abortion is also overused in today's society as a form of birth control? What do you feel can be done to better educate people (both men and women) as a way to pregnancies from occurring in the first place?
    I doubt that 99% of the populace takes the decision to have an abortion lightly. So, in that regard, I don't feel like it is overused. While it is certainly an option, most people are far more proactive with birth control, and explore abortion as a last option, and even then, many opt not to go with that procedure.

    I think most people here can agree that this is a tough personal decision to make, but I think it's a decision someone should be allowed to make. While I do not want to have to make that decision myself, I understand that there are reasons and circumstances that has kept it on the table. If those circumstances exist, then we should maintain at least be some form of safe practice for the relatively rare instances when people utilize that decision.

    As far as education: I think people need to be more realistic with the topic of sex. There is still too much taboo and conflicting teaching methods in regards to sex ed.
    And that concludes staff’s presentation...

  24. #49
    Cyburbian wahday's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Blide View post
    I will say that abstinence only education has proven ineffective for reducing pregnancies though.
    I'm not sure that is the case:

    A University of Georgia study (2011)
    These data show clearly that abstinence-only education as a state policy is ineffective in preventing teenage pregnancy and may actually be contributing to the high teenage pregnancy rates in the U.S.

    A story in USA Today (2010)
    The teen pregnancy rate in the USA rose 3% in 2006, the first increase in more than a decade, according to data out today. The data also show higher rates of births and abortions among girls 15-19. The numbers, calculated by the Guttmacher Institute, a non-profit group that studies reproductive and sexual health, show a clear reversal from the downward trend that began in the 1990s. Guttmacher and others suggest the increase is related to a focus on abstinence-only sex education programs under the Bush administration.
    In Uganda, where HIV infection rates have declined significantly, they teach abstinence in the schools and this appears to be very effective in their battle to control HIV/AIDS rates. However, these programs do not teach abstinence ONLY and that may be part of the success as well. Because, with the issue here is HIV infection, people need to know about condom use in particular – ignorance is deadly in this case. And information about condoms and HIV is all over the place in the public sphere anyway – street plays, posters, etc. No way to avoid that.

    I am not opposed to abstinence being promoted as the best way to avoid any of these unplanned issues – STDs or pregnancy – but I do object to it being the ONLY sex education my child receives in school. I want my son and daughter to be informed citizens.

    Again, I think there can be a disconnect between how we wish people behaved and what they actually do. While we would wish that our children would not have sex until they are ready, or married, or grown-ups, the fact remains that a lot of people have sex before this. Given that possibility, I want my kids to be well informed about their options.

    Moderator note:
    I think you guys are making the same point. ~ Mastiff
    Last edited by Mastiff; 20 Jun 2012 at 11:24 AM. Reason: Just clarification
    The purpose of life is a life of purpose

  25. #50
    Gunfighter Mastiff's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    I wish that was true, and if it was, I am sure that a mod would give me a warning.


    As for the definition of Murder, I imagine you are correct. I have not looked it up to verify it, nor will I. I use the term with the biblical connotation as referenced in the 6th commandment as that is the foundation of my personal decision. The laws that we create can be wrong. Abortion was illegal before Row v Wade.

    Is there anyone in here that feels that abortion is also overused in today's society as a form of birth control? What do you feel can be done to better educate people (both men and women) as a way to pregnancies from occurring in the first place?
    1) I don't think it's a troll, or I would answer differently.

    2) I know I'm correct on my definitions, and that's why I posted them. What you are posting is a belief, not a fact, and that's where the trouble lies. It doesn't matter if it's religious or not, it's not true. It you say, "I believe it should be classified as murder" you're golden. But actually calling it so based on your own personal opinion starts a dialog founded without fact. It happens way too much in this country, and it should stop. If you want to follow the ten commandments as your belief structure, that's up to you, and frankly I think you could do a lot worse. But they are not the law of the land, and many of them are ignored by people like me, without any legal ramifications. I can have other gods, make idols, work on the sabbath, covet, and dishonor my parents all I want... not that I do, but I can.

    3) Several people have made good responses to your last paragraph, but I'll add that I don't think any woman, particularly one who has had the procedure, would want it as a form of birth control. As a card carrying anti-overpopulationist, I think we should use all means to curb the expanding numbers on the planet. In fact, some of the things I would propose would probably be way over the top for most people here. I do not believe in the right to procreation, I think it should be a hard won privilege instead. But I digress, and don't want to go way off topic...
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