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Thread: Lance Armstrong: the fall of yet another legend

  1. #1
    Chairman of the bored Maister's avatar
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    Lance Armstrong: the fall of yet another legend

    http://msn.foxsports.com/cycling/sto...2412?gt1=43001

    I'm sure many of you have heard that Lance Armstrong gave up on fighting the doping charges and now he's going to have his historic string of Tour de France victories taken away. Another athlete doping? I guess that should be no big deal this day and age, but I guess part of me still wanted to believe in the idea of a hero who overcame great odds and emerged victorious. I guess not.
    People will miss that it once meant something to be Southern or Midwestern. It doesn't mean much now, except for the climate. The question, “Where are you from?” doesn't lead to anything odd or interesting. They live somewhere near a Gap store, and what else do you need to know? - Garrison Keillor

  2. #2
    Cyburbian hilldweller's avatar
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    Yep, Lance is definitely a fraud. The evidence against him is so overwhelming.

    Although I will give him credit for all the money he raised for cancer research.

  3. #3
    Cyburbian Plus dandy_warhol's avatar
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    I feel the same way, Maister. I felt that he was most likely using the dope but I had hope that he really was winning on his own. Does he have to rewrite his books with that denounce all the accusations?

  4. #4
    Cyburbian ofos's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Maister View post
    http://msn.foxsports.com/cycling/sto...2412?gt1=43001

    I'm sure many of you have heard that Lance Armstrong gave up on fighting the doping charges and now he's going to have his historic string of Tour de France victories taken away. Another athlete doping? I guess that should be no big deal this day and age, but I guess part of me still wanted to believe in the idea of a hero who overcame great odds and emerged victorious. I guess not.
    I'm calling for the same standards to be applied to politics. There is real or anecdotal evidence that Bill Clinton, George Bush, and Barack Obama all partook in illegal substances while preparing to become President. As a result, the USADA should declare that they are banned for life from politics and that all of their presidential terms have been invalidated. Their vice presidents were, of course, guilty of the same crimes by reason of association. Now get out there and re-write those history books!
    “Death comes when memories of the past exceed the vision for the future.”

  5. #5
    Cyburbian imaplanner's avatar
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    This is certainly great news for the people who finished right behind him who were also doping.
    Children in the back seat can cause accidents - and vice versa.

  6. #6
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    The problem is that everyone in sports knows that the cheating is happening. Until we get to the point where people within the sports are trying to stop it, they will just continue to cover it up and make it seem like it is not there.

    Look at Major League Baseball. Their PED standards are a joke. If they really cared to do anything about it, they would make it a 2 year ban on the first offense. There are few to zero true "false" tests. The "I ate something, blah blah blah" excuse is crazy. These guys have trainers, chefs, and a whole lot more catering to them. They do not put anything into their bodies that is not clearly wanted.

    Cycling has been dirty for a long time. They have always been on the cutting edge of the cheating world. Other sports have always had their cheaters, but the advantage of EPO in cycling is just so great, that it has always been worth the risk to cheat. And in Lance Armstrongs case, he had enough money and enough good scientists to always be able to stay one step ahead. Everyone knew he was cheating, they just couldn't scientifically prove it. And I would bet to this day they can't scientifically prove it. He "gave up" because USADA had 10 of his teammates who were going to spill the beans. They would just be character witnesses, but they would make a pretty strong case I am sure... even if there isn't any actual proof.
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  7. #7
    Cyburbian
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    I'll just say I'm not convinced Lance Armstrong cheated. It just strikes me as odd that he was convicted without any physical evidence despite being subject to numerous blood tests over the years. Now I'm not saying he didn't cheat either but Lance's charge of this being a witch hunt at least seems plausible to me.

  8. #8
    Cyburbian hilldweller's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Blide View post
    I'll just say I'm not convinced Lance Armstrong cheated. It just strikes me as odd that he was convicted without any physical evidence despite being subject to numerous blood tests over the years. Now I'm not saying he didn't cheat either but Lance's charge of this being a witch hunt at least seems plausible to me.
    According to 60 minutes he did fail a drug test back in 2001: http://articles.businessinsider.com/...on-clean-rider

  9. #9
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'.
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  10. #10
    Cyburbian WSU MUP Student's avatar
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    The bigger question here is, "Why do people care about professional cycling?"

    My hope is that the disillusionment with Lance Armstrong will lead to a direct reduction in the packs of Lance Armstrong wannabes that race through the residential neighborhoods near me at speeds greater than what a car could do without being ticketed.
    "Where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost." - 1980 Republican presidential candidate Ronald Reagan

  11. #11
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Do you think that this might also be a reflection on a good amount of society? Cheating on all levels has become so common in sports, relationships, campaigns, and society as a whole, that I am not surprised. I am very disappointed though. I thought he might be an exception rather than the rule.
    Not my monkey, not my circus. - Old Polish Proverb

  12. #12
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    Do you think that this might also be a reflection on a good amount of society? Cheating on all levels has become so common in sports, relationships, campaigns, and society as a whole, that I am not surprised. I am very disappointed though. I thought he might be an exception rather than the rule.
    There always has been cheating in sports, relationships and campaigns. I don't think it's any different than 100 years ago. Back then, it was just easier to cover it up.

    It's human nature to try and gain an advantage. We push the envelope of moral relativity on a daily basis. It's been this way for 1000's of years.

    I don't know him personally, but Lance Armstrong seems like an overall good person. He used his fame for the good of society. I consider myself a fairly moral person, but if I was put into his position, I can't say I wouldn't have cheated.
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

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    Cyburbian ofos's avatar
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    Cheating on cycling, meh. I can forgive him for that. Walking on Sheryl Crow, what an a$$hat. No forgiveness for that.
    “Death comes when memories of the past exceed the vision for the future.”

  14. #14
    Cyburbian DetroitPlanner's avatar
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    By doing this Lance diffused the entire situation. He basically said they are wrong, but I am powerless to fight them. He now has the advantage of looking like the bigger man. I'm not saying this is right or if I think he is guilty, though he is definitely in a better position than if he was officially hauled off into Anti-Doping court.
    We hope for better things; it will arise from the ashes - Fr Gabriel Richard 1805

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    Cyburbian
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    Quote Originally posted by hilldweller View post
    According to 60 minutes he did fail a drug test back in 2001: http://articles.businessinsider.com/...on-clean-rider
    If true, it begs the question as to why it took a decade to act upon. I would imagine he would have already been under tremendous scrutiny due to his success, so it seems somewhat odd that all his subsequent drug tests came up clean.

  16. #16
    Cyburbian ofos's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by DetroitPlanner View post
    By doing this Lance diffused the entire situation. He basically said they are wrong, but I am powerless to fight them. He now has the advantage of looking like the bigger man. I'm not saying this is right or if I think he is guilty, though he is definitely in a better position than if he was officially hauled off into Anti-Doping court.
    The Feds spent two years investigating him for doping and didn't return an indictment. The USADA is supported by taxpayers to the tune of $9M/year. He's probably guilty, but how much is it really worth to pursue one guy for using PED's when he rides a bicycle professionally in a foreign competition?
    “Death comes when memories of the past exceed the vision for the future.”

  17. #17
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by ofos View post
    The Feds spent two years investigating him for doping and didn't return an indictment. The USADA is supported by taxpayers to the tune of $9M/year. He's probably guilty, but how much is it really worth to pursue one guy for using PED's when he rides a bicycle professionally in a foreign competition?
    Couldn't the same be said for Barry Bonds?
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  18. #18
    Cyburbian ofos's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    Couldn't the same be said for Barry Bonds?
    And Roger Clemons. I just don't see it as being the best use of tax dollars. I don't idolize athletes and I don't bet on sports so there's no ROI for me.
    “Death comes when memories of the past exceed the vision for the future.”

  19. #19
    Cyburbian wahday's avatar
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    I was pretty disappointed by this. I’m not fanatical and I’m not primarily a roadie, but I do care about cycling and this was just too bad all around. Not surprising, though, as more and more evidence was coming out over the last few years about his “activities.”
    The purpose of life is a life of purpose

  20. #20
    Cyburbian MacheteJames's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by WSU MUP Student View post
    The bigger question here is, "Why do people care about professional cycling?"

    My hope is that the disillusionment with Lance Armstrong will lead to a direct reduction in the packs of Lance Armstrong wannabes that race through the residential neighborhoods near me at speeds greater than what a car could do without being ticketed.
    Because it's the greatest and hardest sport there is, that's why. No sport is as grueling yet poetic as bike racing. I train and race on an amateur level and it's ridiculously hard even at that level. The things that TDF riders are asked to do are one of the very reasons for the doping. Humans cannot be expected to scale mountains at a faster and faster pace year on year without the introduction of drugs or another illicit competitive edge. If the sport were 100% clean, you'd see average stage finishing times drop to where they were 10 or even 15 years ago and perhaps never rise much above that due to the physiological limitations of the un-doped human body. You can blame the cult of 'More' that infects our society as much as you blame the individual athletes. They, like us, are all caught up in the larger system that is never satisfied, always demanding more. More records broken, more advertising dollars, more merchandise purchased, you get the picture.

    By the way, your typical pack on a fast group ride is rolling at a speed of between 25 and 30mph on flat terrain. Hardly above the speed at which a car would be ticketed. You apparently have some kind of axe to grind against road cyclists, which is not something I'd expect from a planner type, but hey, you know what they say about opinions. We ride for us, not for you.

  21. #21
    So now Lance Armstrong is going to appear on the Oprah Winfrey show to announce he did in fact cheat and that he did in fact lie. Know what? I don't care one bit and I will not forgive him. Just my $0.02
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  22. #22
    Cyburbian btrage's avatar
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    The fact that he's doing the interview with Oprah is more disturbing than his revelations.

    I wish he would've done the interview with a respected sports journalist.
    "I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany"

  23. #23
    Cyburbian ofos's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Gedunker View post
    So now Lance Armstrong is going to appear on the Oprah Winfrey show to announce he did in fact cheat and that he did in fact lie. Know what? I don't care one bit and I will not forgive him. Just my $0.02
    If he asks me, I'll forgive him. Not that it matters, he's already gone to Oprah who is our current national confessor. Barbara Walters must be steamed that she wasn't consulted.
    “Death comes when memories of the past exceed the vision for the future.”

  24. #24
    Unfrozen Caveman Planner mendelman's avatar
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    Meh.

    I say the sports leagues allow all doping that is not against local, state, or federal law.

    Then it is really equal.
    I'm sorry. Is my bias showing?

    Let's not be didactic in this profession, because that is a path to disillusion and irrelevancy.

    Six seasons and a movie!

  25. #25
    Cyburbian ColoGI's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by btrage View post
    The fact that he's doing the interview with Oprah is more disturbing than his revelations.

    I wish he would've done the interview with a respected sports journalist.
    We've known he was a doper for a long time. We had to swallow our bile for the first couple TDF victories, then slowly folks started realizing how he was winning - not just doping - and it was just a matter of time.
    -------
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