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Thread: On the verge of leaving planning profession - the final post

  1. #1
    Cyburbian
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    On the verge of leaving planning profession - the final post

    Let me just preface this thread by saying, I will want to delete my account at Cyburbia after this post. I will no longer contribute to this message board after this post. Whoever is administrator here, please go ahead and delete my account upon noticing this thread.

    With that said, it's time to be flat out honest because since my account will no longer be active after this thread, I'll just say whatever I want. You can't be afraid to accept reality as it comes, you have to be a realist. Locking a thread because it does not fit the mainstream opinion of this message board shows the arrogance of the administrators, and shows the apprehensiveness of whoever does not agree with me. Truth is, planning is an asinine profession. It doesn't take reality into account. It just takes what people want to see, regardless of feasibility, and wastes time, money, and effort. It would be a waste for me to spend 40 years of my life in a profession that did not fit where I wanted to be in my life. Planning is not it.

    The fact I even have to say this shows that if you're a planner, you're afraid my opinion is detrimental to the profession. It should be. I should be noticed. I got tired of wasting my time looking for work that never came. It was not because I wasn't capable of being a planner. I probably am more capable of being a planner than most people here. I recognize reality. I don't discredit someone else's opinion. I am willing to listen, even if I disagree with you. That is how you learn. If you aren't going to listen to others, and listen to their opinions, you just contribute to the problem. This doesn't mean you to accept blindly someone else's way of thinking.

    Another reason why planning is asinine. I subscribed to NCplan listserv, per the suggestion of many people here. I just saw today about someone concerned with bees and apiary regulations. Why are we concerned about bees? Or regulations about them? This is an utter waste of time, and only exemplifies why I left the planning profession. I want to actually do something worthwhile, and not something that can be considered a total waste and doesn't provide any benefit to humans whatsoever. Another example about goats and pot belly pigs? Come on now.

    I am exposing a large problem within planning. I am not trolling. I shouldn't have to say this. I don't want to. But, it has become me that has to. I WILL NEVER AGREE THAT THERE ARE MANY OPPORTUNITIES FOR ENTRY LEVEL PROFESSIONALS TO FIND JOBS IN URBAN AND REGIONAL PLANNING. You can write it down, lock it in a safe, and throw it overboard in the most remote parts of the oceans on the planet Earth. No one ever gave me a reason to believe otherwise. I am not afraid to say what is on my mind, even if the ultimate consequences are not good. I believe in something, and that is more important to me than any profession. I will not sell my soul to planning, if it didn't do anything for myself.

    Next, there were no reasons given of why planners have been so unprofessional with me. I wonder why that is? Maybe because most planners who post here are afraid to speak ill will of their follow colleagues. That is okay and I understand that. But there is no excuse for not hearing back, there's no excuse for lies, there's no excuse for leading people on. That is just common courtesy to say, you just weren't the best person for the job, instead of letting of someone sit and worry after continuous follow up messages. If you don't believe that, I can't help you. It is something that should be mentioned, something that should be put in the spotlight.

    Although I never attacked anyone personally here, I was given harsh treatment here. Saying that something was "wrong" with me. You can say whatever the hell you want about me, but it shows your ineptness when it comes to judging people you don't even know. I will be the one who has the last laugh. I am young, decided that planning wasn't right for me, and left. I praise God that I left when I did. Many people, including some here, told me to leave quickly. I couldn't have made a better decision. Planning is for fools. People who want to waste their time chasing unrealistic goals. It's too liberal for me.

    So many issues exist in the planning profession, it would be a waste of my time posting all of them. From education, to the APA, to the AICP exam, to actual practice. Planning is a profession that should be exposed as ridiculous. I want to reiterate it. One day, people will look at planning and say, he was right. I don't see long term growth for planners.

    According to the occupational outlook handbook, the demand for planners is allegedly going to grow at a pace slower than average from 2014-2024, at a rate of 6%. Accept reality everyone! Entry Level jobs aren't there, and internships don't count! Maybe senior planner jobs, but the entry level jobs are limited. I haven't seen many in the recent past. Just accept it. It's time for you to move on to bigger and better things than attacking someone who has an opinion that you may not agree with.

    So with all of this said, I must bid you all a farewell. I have come to grips with reality. Planning is not for me. Not because I couldn't make it in planning, I certainly could, maybe even more so than anyone that reads this. It's because I want to move on with my life in a new direction, which I have done. I am excited for this new direction. But, this post was necessary to show everyone that it is not just fun and games. You can't just discredit someone because it didn't happen to you, or because you didn't see it happen. As I have said, I want my account deleted. It's because of the arrogance that has been shown by professionals who blindly follow the planning profession, and will into oblivion. Planning will be obsolete one day. I hope it is. Replaced by something that is more realistic. Something that is not concerned about pot belly pigs within city limits, or the amount of beehives someone can keep. Worry about those things on your own time. Worry about things that will actually benefit humans. Worry about population projections. Worry about what will bring people jobs via economic development. Worry about where you'll place residential units. Don't worry about pigs in city limits.

    Good "riddance" to you all. I did know what the other word was by the way. You might as well should have just said it. I am not fazed anymore by words. I've conditioned myself to have thicker skin. Enjoy your lives, as I know I will moving forward. Good luck.

    Bye.

  2. #2
    OH....IO Hink's avatar
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    So I will leave this thread open. And since I was the one who closed both of his previous threads, I will take the blame as the "arrogant" mod who just wanted to block his opinion. I think this post is good, since it really says what the OP really wanted to say the whole time.

    Quote Originally posted by nam0806 View post
    Truth is, planning is an asinine profession.

    Glad to hear your opinion. You just have to realize that you are but one person, who had one experience. Trying to "save" people from an outcome that is highly unique, doesn't mean that you are doing a favor to people. Coming onto a message board for current and future planners and telling us all that we are stupid and don't know what you are going through or are saying, is counterproductive to your goal of getting a job. If you were really looking for a job, you would take the constructive criticism and work to improve yourself to get that job. You certainly wouldn't open three separate threads to tell everyone how right you are, and why people should believe what you are saying.

    I closed the threads mainly because you were going to get backlash. I was trying to protect you from what was coming. You just couldn't let it go. I hope you find whatever it is you are looking for. Just please stop looking here. I don't feel like protecting you from the onslaught that is owed to you.
    A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

  3. #3
    Cyburbian SoutheastMCRP's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Hink View post
    So I will leave this thread open.
    Well thank God, because I just cancelled my cable subscription.

  4. #4
    Cyburbian AG74683's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by nam0806 View post

    Planning is not for me. Not because I couldn't make it in planning, I certainly could, maybe even more so than anyone that reads this.
    Lol you would have been eaten alive in this profession with the attitude you have. There is a reason why no one picked you for an entry level job. It has nothing to do with job experience either. I wish you the best of luck in your new career, but you seriously need a reality check my friend.

    FYI, we are concerned with bees and other random shit only because the people we work for (the general public) are concerned with bees and other random shit. Do you really think the majority of us go out of our way to regulate trivial things like this?

  5. #5
    Cyburbian Plus
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    Because in farm country - bees lives matter.

  6. #6
    Cyburbian Planit's avatar
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    Is this a sock puppet for urban19? Its quite possible except that nam never said the word

    I also thought for a second it could have been emma, but she was more "fun"
    "Whatever beer I'm drinking, is better than the one I'm not." DMLW
    "Budweiser sells a product they reflectively insist on calling beer." John Oliver

  7. #7
    Forums Administrator & Gallery Moderator NHPlanner's avatar
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    My lone contribution to the thread as an Admin:

    Moderator note:
    No, we will not delete your account. Account deletion is reserved for very limited cases, and having a thin skin isn't one of them.

    Per the Forum Policies/Rules:
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  8. #8
    Cyburbian Bubba's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by SoutheastMCRP View post
    Well thank God, because I just cancelled my cable subscription.
    I found you a new motto from a sign hanging on their wall…"Drink coffee: do stupid things faster and with more energy"

  9. #9
    Cyburbian Plus dvdneal's avatar
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    I'm glad you found a different profession and best of luck. I was going to leave a long rant about it, but it doesn't help anyone so I'll leave this out there for future planners:

    Learn how to interview. Your school will help, but remember they teach you to interview for a private job, not public. Read these forums. We post the same advice over and over. Why, because we've seen it. Many of us are the hiring managers you need to impress.
    Attitude is everything for any interview. For public sector jobs more often we want to see that you are a stable person who won't go off when the mayor hates what are actually sound planning principles and passes something that will make your job hell. We want to know that you can take it and won't make a public scene.
    We want people that can learn quickly about anything. Why, because tomorrow we have to right codes about regulating bees and other things that are a waste of out time.

    Also remember it's work to look for work.
    I don't pretend to understand Brannigan's Law. I merely enforce it.

  10. #10
    Cyburbian
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    Bees pollinate almost all crops grown for human consumption (and crops to feed animals that are raised for human consumption). Without bees we'd have almost nothing to eat. Sounds important to me.

  11. #11
    Cyburbian SoutheastMCRP's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by dvdneal View post
    Learn how to interview. Your school will help, but remember they teach you to interview for a private job, not public.
    I'm actually seeing the opposite, as my program is currently training us first and foremost for public sector career paths. For those of us interested in private sector, we're going out on our own, networking, making connections, interviewing, and learning any extra skills (SketchUp, Argus, etc.) on the side to bolster our resumes. Regardless, it's a ton of work, and you're not going to be successful if you don't truly put the effort in.

  12. #12
    It was not my intentions to engage in any personal attacks, although re-reading what I read, it could be construed that way. For that I am sorry. I still maintain there is something wrong with OP's interview style and/or resume based on the comments he wrote, if the goal is to secure employment in planning. There are entry level jobs out there, a hell of a lot more than there was back in the middle of the Great Recession.

    Mods, please delete this next comment if inappropriate but OP's logic and writing style very much reminds me of someone I knew with aspergers. The person I knew once asked a girl out on the date, she stood him up, and his reaction was just constant justifications why she should have called to cancel et al. We all said just too move on, but he just didn't get it and keep pursuing the issue...

    If that's the case, comments like the ones OP made are definetly not trolling and is genuine frustrations.

    Not even sure why I'm posting this. I'll be moving on myself from this thread.
    The content contrarian

  13. #13
    Cyburbian
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    I would also like to encourage any current planning students/recent grads/about to be grads. All of us that work as planners now had to get our first jobs. The route I took was non-traditional, but I was able to move back and get a job in the county where I grew up in 2008. If you recall, that wasn't the best time to be finding jobs. But no one's going to do it for you. And you have to be willing to put effort into it.

    Being humble when you're starting out is really important. Employers definitely want employees that are confident in their jobs, but they also don't want employees that aren't going to be teachable and aren't willing to ask questions/learn from mistakes. They also don't want employees that are going to create unpleasant work environments for their co-workers. That really shouldn't have to be said, but given the turn this whole exchange has taken, I feel like it should be part of the "official" conversation.

    And yes, pigs in high density areas are a big deal! (Even though I really, really want a pet pig one day!)

  14. #14
    Cyburbian terraplnr's avatar
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    My employer is currently filling five entry level planner positions. My former employer is looking for one or two. I just met two planners that graduated less than a year ago and found jobs shortly after graduation. There are entry level positions out there, at least here in California.

  15. #15
    moderator in moderation Suburb Repairman's avatar
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    Awwwwww... an entitled Millennial mic-drop. How cute.

    I was nice. I offered advice. Many of us did, and in a very constructive manner I might add. And what we got back from the OP was a giant pile of bullshit whining. I'm glad you're departing this profession--it would have devoured you in a matter of a few months, if not weeks. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

    "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

    - Herman Göring at the Nuremburg trials (thoughts on democracy)

  16. #16
    Cyburbian beach_bum's avatar
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    I know a recent-ish C grad, who is great...he did mention he had one classmate who could not find a job, but it was due to expectations and personality or something like that...I wonder...

    Anyways, I challenge you experienced planners to start grooming and mentoring the next generation of planners, we don't need people like that in the profession. I am big sis planner at my young office and the need is out there.

    I mean I finished grad school in 2008, It was tough to find a job then because of the recession, no less an entry level one! I had to move 500 miles and send out lots of applications. The market is way better now, he is lucky.
    "Never invest in any idea you can't illustrate with a crayon." ~Peter Lynch

  17. #17
    Cyburbian
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    Thoughts on the trilogy

    I've been following the trilogy and have a few thoughts to share:

    In the climax of the grand finale, the OP declares planning to be “asinine”, “obsolete” and should be exposed for the “ridiculous” profession that it is. So I don’t understand why, if the OP believed this so strongly, why in the world did he spend six years pursuing bachelor’s and master’s degrees in the profession (in fact more than that, since he started studying it in high school) and another two years trying to get a job in it. Surely he should have realized early on in the span of those EIGHT or more years how “asinine” and “obsolete” etc this profession is. And that yes, the general public wants to discuss bee hives and pigs etc. with the planning commission and staff. That's a terrible waste of time... so many years of one's life, and for a young one, such an incredibly huge portion of one's time on the planet thus far.

    It seems what the OP was most furious about was being lied to, misled or led on, and not responded to when he applied or interviewed for jobs. He also had a list of “excuses” about why the employers would not hire him. Firstly, I think most of us, if not all of us, have experienced some or all of that at one time or another. I know I have, by both private and public sector, not just entry level but even managerial level. Sucky, unprofessional HR practices exist. We deal with it and not let it enrage us for weeks, months, years. Secondly, he seemed to think these unprofessional HR practices are unique to planning. We all know it most definitely isn’t (unless all your friends and family, anyone you’ve ever interacted with.. are....all.....planners… in which case you should stop reading this and get help )

    He was also infuriated by the fact that planning jobs could be offered to people without planning degrees. How could any profession hire someone who did not have a degree in that very profession?! And then he goes and happily gets a job in a “New Profession” (unrelated to planning to boot) with his TWO planning degrees. No!!! How could the “New Profession” do that?? They should only hire those with “New Profession” degrees. Unacceptable!

    I didn’t mind him ranting too much, …up until he said he could be a much better planner than anyone who reads his posts. Twice. Then I felt I had to share these thoughts.

  18. #18
    Cyburbian beach_bum's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Reefe View post
    I've been following the trilogy and have a few thoughts to share:


    I didn’t mind him ranting too much, …up until he said he could be a much better planner than anyone who reads his posts. Twice. Then I felt I had to share these thoughts.
    That was my push point too...he has no idea the caliber of planners on this board and the great advice he got from many in director level position planners.

    I think lots of people like the idea of planning, but not the practice. It's not all vertical mixed use, bicycle lanes and urban parks...we also work on truck stops, strip commercial and bee hives.

    I got a call about goats today...never a boring day
    "Never invest in any idea you can't illustrate with a crayon." ~Peter Lynch

  19. #19
    Quote Originally posted by beach_bum View post
    That was my push point too...he has no idea the caliber of planners on this board and the great advice he got from many in director level position planners.

    I think lots of people like the idea of planning, but not the practice. It's not all vertical mixed use, bicycle lanes and urban parks...we also work on truck stops, strip commercial and bee hives.

    I got a call about goats today...never a boring day
    I agree. during my years in, I've covered everything from adult entertainment to confined feeding operations to ethanol plants to fill in the blank. It's one of the things I like about the profession. It keeps me on my toes and constantly learning.
    When did I go from Luke Skywalker to Obi-Wan Kenobi?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally posted by Glenmonster View post
    <snip> Despite this, I do try to remind people who make anti-millenial comments that there is a subset of the millennial generation that left college and entered the working world during a major recession. This group took jobs it probably wouldn't have given stronger economic times, and are constantly trying to play catch-up.<snip>
    Alleged baby boomer here and I'm really in agreement with what you are saying. I was born to a WWII vet in 1960, the last of three kids. My sister is 11 years older than me and my brother is 8 years older. (Yeah, I wasn't planned, how could I possibly end up a planner, of all things?) While demographers put me in the baby boom, I sure as hell don't feel like I belong there. My sister is comfortably retired already (and just bought a pricey vacation condo in Colorado), but I've got at least 12 more years to work before I get to retirement. My brother is finishing putting one kid through an Ivy League education and another as an out-of-state student at a B1G Ten (out-of-state at a B1G Ten was actually more expensive than an Ivy, if you can believe that). He and his wife just spent a small fortune remodeling their home in anticipation of selling/retiring. My wife and I are struggling to put one through a nice regional private school (on a 50% scholarship) and I'm thankful as all get out that the other wants to stay home and go to a branch campus of a B1G Ten. We've got four more years to pay off our mortgage on a home that really needs some serious reinvestment.

    I graduated in the early 80s with a BA in History and an economy in a deep recession (not nearly Great Recession deep I admit, but notable nonetheless). At the time all the companies around were buying these magic boxes to put on employee's desks to make them more efficient and did I know anything about how to work these so called computers, 'cause we'll hire you in spite of that history degree if you do ... sorry, nope, I'm clueless. And so I carried pianos up three story walk ups in NYC to pay off student loan debt. If I were ever inclined to leave the public sector, my late 40s/early 50s would have been the best time to do it, but that just happened to correlate with the Great Recession, so, nope.

    I have two Millenials on my staff - and nobody else - and I adore them. They work smart, they work really well in customer service, they are digitally literate in ways I can't even imagine. I see no sense of entitlement in either one of them and only a sense of being willing to be part of a team.

    The OP was a prima donna and every generation produces them. He/she just didn't realize you have to actually accomplish something before you get to start making demands. And for that, mommy and daddy should demand a refund from Clemson.
    Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.
    Abraham Lincoln

  21. #21
    Cyburbian michaelskis's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Whose Yur Planner View post
    I agree. during my years in, I've covered everything from adult entertainment to confined feeding operations to ethanol plants to fill in the blank. It's one of the things I like about the profession. It keeps me on my toes and constantly learning.
    Mixed use in the same facility... talk about party animals.

    I learned a long time ago that no matter who freaking awesome you think you are, there will always be someone who will know more. You can either be offended or can shut up and learn from them.

    I have one Millennial working for me at the moment. He is eager to move up and he knows his stuff. However, he is always seeking to learn new things and how to do a better job than he did yesterday.
    If you're not growing, you're dying. - Lou Holtz

  22. #22
    moderator in moderation Suburb Repairman's avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Gedunker View post

    I have two Millenials on my staff - and nobody else - and I adore them. They work smart, they work really well in customer service, they are digitally literate in ways I can't even imagine. I see no sense of entitlement in either one of them and only a sense of being willing to be part of a team.

    The OP was a prima donna and every generation produces them. He/she just didn't realize you have to actually accomplish something before you get to start making demands. And for that, mommy and daddy should demand a refund from Clemson.
    This has been my experience as well. I even did a state APA conference session panel on working with multiple generations in the same office--differences in how you manage, how you keep them engaged, etc. Did a lot of refuting of stereotypes. I actually love hiring Millennials--all of mine have brought great energy, creativity & initiative to the office. They've all broken stereotypes as well--showing loyalty and respect for those that came before. But I've also interviewed several that fed the stereotype with detectable attitudes during the interview that were similar to those exhibited by the OP. Likewise, I've seen the prima donna thing show up in the Xer generation as well.

    "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

    - Herman Göring at the Nuremburg trials (thoughts on democracy)

  23. #23
    Quote Originally posted by michaelskis View post
    Mixed use in the same facility... talk about party animals.

    I learned a long time ago that no matter who freaking awesome you think you are, there will always be someone who will know more. You can either be offended or can shut up and learn from them.

    I have one Millennial working for me at the moment. He is eager to move up and he knows his stuff. However, he is always seeking to learn new things and how to do a better job than he did yesterday.
    Actually two of those were in the same county. I know way too much about ag uses.

    I agree with the idea that there is always someone better than you, no matter how good you think you are. Tae kwon do taught me that the hard way.
    When did I go from Luke Skywalker to Obi-Wan Kenobi?

  24. #24
    Cyburbian Masswich's avatar
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    Can't.... Look.... Away....

    So hard to watch someone with so much bitterness not want to let go of an argument. Actually, what am I saying, get me some more popcorn and bring him back for another round.

  25. #25
    Cyburbian
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    I understand how Nam would feel burned as a job seeker. These people are powerless and weak, especially when trying to break into this competitive field. People will be rude, thoughtless, and disrespectful. It is one thing to mistreat people when they are strong. But another thing altogether to push around the weak.

    I remember dropping of an application an a city's human resources office. I found the staff to be very inconsiderate to me. I thought they should treat all applicants with basic courtesy, knowing that one of them will be hired and become their colleague. And they should know that a candidate who is offered the job might have other choices and note a lack of professionalism among the HR staff she will depend on if accepting the position.

    Struggling to break into this field was not easy and I think I suffered much like Nam. I'm temped to assume the attitudes Nam expressed on this forum came through during interviews, but I don't know that. After months of failing to get hired, I had some of the same feelings, but it is easy enough to put them aside when interfacing with a potential employer, and Nam may have done that.
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